Razor Shines....

[Steff]

2 former Sox players who were under his direction in the minors and have posted here in the past have expressed, with examples, extreme hatred for him and his racist attitude.

 

As for Raines... Ozzie's comment is interesting seeing as Raines himself said in August '06 he was not returning due to family matters.

[Dick Allen]

First off, I don't think Razor wanting to be a manager has anything to do with this. Cora wants to be a manager. If the Sox have problems with people desiring to better themselves, wow. I can buy the maybe someone they really wanted is available now argument. As far as different skill set, he was in the organization for 6 years, if he didn't have the skill set necessary, you would think they would know that before they hired him. I think either they have someone else in mind who is now available, or Razor recently pissed off the wrong person or persons, considering Ozzie said he was doing a good job coaching 3rd, and supposedly he doesn't lie. He also spoke out against yes men, so dissagreeing with him would seem not to be a reason to get canned.

As far as Hard Art, I think his eye issues are a nice convenient reason to make a change. With the importance of bullpens, it wouldn't surprise me if the White Sox hired a guy with pitching coach experience to replace him. The bullpen has been disasterous the last 2 seasons. Maybe someone new can make a little difference.

[Chisoxfn]

I and others here have heard stories of Shines NOT being liked by the minor league guys and the young players. fathom has heard the opposite, starting with Sean Tracey. I don't know -- I don't have sympathy for Tracey, for one, and I don't care if Shines got along with our minor leaguers.

Those stories are flat bs. I know Shines had some stuff his first go around a long time ago, but he's emerged as guy that is absolutely loved by his players. The guy is going to be a future major league manager and I assume he's gone because the Sox know that and want a different skill set or so I hope.

 

I also know Shines was absolutely livid about the way Ozzie handled the Tracey situation (as sean Tracey is a guy that was loved by his teammates and coaches). And I say this because I've interviewed many of Shines former players and have heard them say nothing but nice things about him.

[29andPoplar]

2 former Sox players who were under his direction in the minors and have posted here in the past have expressed, with examples, extreme hatred for him and his racist attitude.

 

I would like to hear more about this.

 

Being around the spring complex as much as I have the last few years, I have seen and heard the exact opposite. But then again, I am not in the clubhouse.

 

However I would really question ... really question ... if a White Sox organizational employee displayed a racist attitude, knowing how sr. management draws a line on that stuff, it would be a shock if said person was still employed, let alone promoted.

 

But regardless of my feelings, I would like to hear more about those incidents.

[29andPoplar]

First off, I don't think Razor wanting to be a manager has anything to do with this. Cora wants to be a manager. If the Sox have problems with people desiring to better themselves, wow. I can buy the maybe someone they really wanted is available now argument. As far as different skill set, he was in the organization for 6 years, if he didn't have the skill set necessary, you would think they would know that before they hired him. I think either they have someone else in mind who is now available, or Razor recently pissed off the wrong person or persons, considering Ozzie said he was doing a good job coaching 3rd, and supposedly he doesn't lie. He also spoke out against yes men, so dissagreeing with him would seem not to be a reason to get canned.

As far as Hard Art, I think his eye issues are a nice convenient reason to make a change. With the importance of bullpens, it wouldn't surprise me if the White Sox hired a guy with pitching coach experience to replace him. The bullpen has been disasterous the last 2 seasons. Maybe someone new can make a little difference.

 

It is quite possible, even likely, a different skill set could be required based on the make up of the team. Or as you alluded to, quite possibly they have someone else in mind they feel is a better fit. That he was signed for only one year tells me not that they wanted to hold him back, but rather allow him to keep his options open.

 

Also for the record I am not dismissing the possibility that something went wrong, possibly an interpersonal conflict or whatever. I am not in the clubhouse, I woudn't know. I do know the White Sox do not stand in the way of anyone wanting to better themselves. That's not their style.

[Steff]

I would like to hear more about this.

 

Being around the spring complex as much as I have the last few years, I have seen and heard the exact opposite. But then again, I am not in the clubhouse.

 

However I would really question ... really question ... if a White Sox organizational employee displayed a racist attitude, knowing how sr. management draws a line on that stuff, it would be a shock if said person was still employed, let alone promoted.

 

But regardless of my feelings, I would like to hear more about those incidents.

 

 

I was there for a month this past year and heard plenty of examples of his vile mouth with my own ears. [Edited] He's a disgusting man.

Edited October 9, 2007 by kapkomet

[29andPoplar]

I was there for a month this past year and heard plenty of examples of his vile mouth with my own ears. He's a big fan of the n word and talks down to people without giving it a second thought. Twice he was asked to leave a bar area of a frequented mexican resturant for offending female patrons. He's a disgusting man.

 

Actually I was referring to the two players you mentioned, what was the story there?

 

For the record, I have heard him swear.

[Dick Allen]

Actually I was referring to the two players you mentioned, what was the story there?

 

For the record, I have heard him swear.

The guy who fired him was swearing on a radio show, and probably can't complete a sentence without swearing.

[29andPoplar]

The guy who fired him was swearing on a radio show, and probably can't complete a sentence without swearing.

 

Yes I agree, Ozzie swears too.

[fathom]

Wait, so you are saying:

 

Ozzie yelled at Tracey, Tracey got sent down, Razor pitched Tracey in the minors and got him back on track,

 

and that equals,

 

Ozzie and Razor had tension between them?

 

Not at all. Ozzie never wanted Tracey to see the majors again. Razor asked for Ozzie to reconsider (in a conversation that I have told a few people on here about), and the rest is history.

[Steff]

Yes I agree, Ozzie swears too.

 

 

Absolutely. Though I've never heard Ozzie call someone [edited].

 

 

So Ozzie personally fired Razor?

Edited October 9, 2007 by kapkomet

[Dick Allen]

Not at all. Ozzie never wanted Tracey to see the majors again. Razor asked for Ozzie to reconsider (in a conversation that I have told a few people on here about), and the rest is history.

But Shines was hired after the Tracey debacle. Ozzie said in the whitesox.com article that Shines did a good job but they needed someone to teach fundamentals and baserunning. What exactly does Joey Cora do or Baines? Why don't White Sox players know how to do these things before they get called up to Chicago? To me, its really not that huge of a deal there will be a new 3rd base coach, but considering how many guys get away with stealing money, I have a hard time with guys who let go for really no valid reason. It almost appears from the article that Shines was canned because of what the other coaches lack.

[Dick Allen]

Absolutely. Though I've never heard Ozzie call someone a "stupid mf'ing n".

So Ozzie personally fired Razor?

If the article on whitesox.com is accurate, Ozzie has full control over hiring and firing of the coaching staff.

[29andPoplar]

Not at all. Ozzie never wanted Tracey to see the majors again. Razor asked for Ozzie to reconsider (in a conversation that I have told a few people on here about), and the rest is history.

 

You said there was a source of tension between the two, so I'm not following you at all.

[Steff]

If the article on whitesox.com is accurate, Ozzie has full control over hiring and firing of the coaching staff.

 

 

To be accruate... the article states Ozzie will search for the replacements. Not that he had anything to do with the firing or reassignment.

 

 

edit to add... "search" is subjective as well. He may just have been asked to bring choices to the table and Kenny will do the hiring.

[Dick Allen]

To be accruate... the article states Ozzie will search for the replacements. Not that he had anything to do with the firing or reassignment.

I'm reading it differently

 

quote from whitesox.com

 

Whereas Shines, 50, was let go, bullpen coach Art Kusnyer, 61, was reassigned within the organization. Guillen will lead the search for both replacements, having been given control of the staff's hirings and dismissals by general manager Ken Williams.

[fathom]

You said there was a source of tension between the two, so I'm not following you at all.

 

Yes, because Ozzie was disappointed in Razor for sticking up for Tracey. Ozzie Guillen has an ungodly hatred for Sean Tracey after the Rangers incident....it's very pathetic.

[Steff]

I'm reading it differently

 

quote from whitesox.com

 

Whereas Shines, 50, was let go, bullpen coach Art Kusnyer, 61, was reassigned within the organization. Guillen will lead the search for both replacements, having been given control of the staff's hirings and dismissals by general manager Ken Williams.

 

 

The article does not say that.

[29andPoplar]

Ozzie said in the whitesox.com article that Shines did a good job but they needed someone to teach fundamentals and baserunning. What exactly does Joey Cora do or Baines? Why don't White Sox players know how to do these things before they get called up to Chicago? To me, its really not that huge of a deal there will be a new 3rd base coach, but considering how many guys get away with stealing money, I have a hard time with guys who let go for really no valid reason. It almost appears from the article that Shines was canned because of what the other coaches lack.

 

I see Cora working with the middle IF guys on positioning, technique, etc. and I see Baines working with the OF guys on similar stuff. (should be clearer, have seen this in Tucson).

 

So it looks like the "hole" as it were, was the baserunning technique and I will go out on a limb here and say they have someone in mind that they like.

 

There is great validity to the issue of your question, why don't the Sox players know all this stuff by the time they hit the majors? Not that players don't need a refresher now and again, but your exact point is why they are looking at all aspects of player development this offseason.

[Dick Allen]

The article does not say that.

 

Yes it does. Click on full story.

[29andPoplar]

Yes, because Ozzie was disappointed in Razor for sticking up for Tracey. Ozzie Guillen has an ungodly hatred for Sean Tracey after the Rangers incident....it's very pathetic.

 

Really, how do you know this, particularly the first part?

 

If Guillen had an ungodly hatred for Sean Tracey I find it extremely hard to believe he would have pitched again for the White Sox, which he did.

[fathom]

I see Cora working with the middle IF guys on positioning, technique, etc. and I see Baines working with the OF guys on similar stuff. (should be clearer, have seen this in Tucson).

 

So it looks like the "hole" as it were, was the baserunning technique and I will go out on a limb here and say they have someone in mind that they like.

 

There is great validity to the issue of your question, why don't the Sox players know all this stuff by the time they hit the majors? Not that players don't need a refresher now and again, but your exact point is why they are looking at all aspects of player development this offseason.

 

They were talking about this during the Red Sox game about how every coach in the minor league system teaches the same fundamentals, approach, etc. This way, when they get to the majors, they're ready to play the game the right way. In my opinion, the biggest issue the Sox have had with their prospects is that they don't do enough to get the hitters ready for big league pitching. As long as they're producing in the minors, they don't try and fix some of the holes. It's actually something I heard about Brian Anderson while he was in the minors, and that his hitch would really hurt him.

[Steff]

Yes it does. Click on full story.

 

The press release from the Sox does not state that.

 

 

"10/05/2007 2:49 PM ET

White Sox do not renew contract of third base coach Razor Shines; Reassign bullpen coach Art Kusnyer

CHICAGO -- The Chicago White Sox announced that the contract of third base coach Razor Shines will not be renewed for the 2008 season, and bullpen coach Art Kusnyer has been reassigned within the organization. White Sox Manager Ozzie Guillen will conduct the search for both replacements.

 

Shines, 50, originally was hired by the White Sox on June 21, 2000. He managed for six seasons in their Minor League system before being hired as the Sox third base coach on Oct. 31, 2006.

 

Kusnyer, 61, has spent the last 11 seasons (1997-2007) as the White Sox bullpen coach and also held the position from 1980-87.

 

The rest of the White Sox coaching staff will return intact in 2008: manager Ozzie Guillen, first base coach Harold Baines and bench coach Joey Cora return for their fifth seasons; pitching coach Don Cooper is back for his sixth full season; hitting coach Greg Walker starts his fifth full season and sixth overall; and bullpen catcher Mark Salas is back for his second season with the Sox. "

 

 

 

 

[fathom]

Really, how do you know this, particularly the first part?

 

If Guillen had an ungodly hatred for Sean Tracey I find it extremely hard to believe he would have pitched again for the White Sox, which he did.

 

I'll PM you the information. You can thank Razor and KW for making Ozzie give Tracey another chance.

[29andPoplar]

Absolutely. Though I've never heard Ozzie call someone a "stupid mf'ing n".

So Ozzie personally fired Razor?

 

I can not say I have either, but half the time I will confess I can't decipher what Guillen is saying (swearing?) anyways.

 

I am still interested in the stories of the two players who used to post here?