Razor Shines....

[Dick Allen]

I see Cora working with the middle IF guys on positioning, technique, etc. and I see Baines working with the OF guys on similar stuff. (should be clearer, have seen this in Tucson).

 

So it looks like the "hole" as it were, was the baserunning technique and I will go out on a limb here and say they have someone in mind that they like.

 

There is great validity to the issue of your question, why don't the Sox players know all this stuff by the time they hit the majors? Not that players don't need a refresher now and again, but your exact point is why they are looking at all aspects of player development this offseason.

Maybe KW should acquire some players who can run the bases. That might be a start. I don't know how anyone is going to make Konerko, AJ, Thome, Dye, Crede anything but basecloggers. Pods and Erstad were always hurt. Owens was better on the bases than advertised. Richar can use some work. Fields and Uribe don't exactly appear like they are speedsters. Most of the White Sox baserunning problems are slow runners and bad instincts. If there is someone who can fix that, they would be worth a lot of money.

[29andPoplar]

I'll PM you the information. You can thank Razor and KW for making Ozzie give Tracey another chance.

 

Well I can guess it, it really doesn't need to be PM'd because if it's bantered about here as fact, the board should know about it anyways. Further I recall Guillen saying to the press when or shortly after Tracey was demoted, Tracey would be back if the team needed him. Later in the year, he was.

 

I will admit straight out I have a very hard time taking much of anything you state about Guillen as gospel because I've seen, in my opinion, some irrational bashing bordering on a vendetta against Guillen from your posts. Nothing personal but I sense a real bias, where everything is Guillen's fault and I have watched enough baseball to know better.

[Dick Allen]

The press release from the Sox does not state that.

"10/05/2007 2:49 PM ET

White Sox do not renew contract of third base coach Razor Shines; Reassign bullpen coach Art Kusnyer

CHICAGO -- The Chicago White Sox announced that the contract of third base coach Razor Shines will not be renewed for the 2008 season, and bullpen coach Art Kusnyer has been reassigned within the organization. White Sox Manager Ozzie Guillen will conduct the search for both replacements.

 

Shines, 50, originally was hired by the White Sox on June 21, 2000. He managed for six seasons in their Minor League system before being hired as the Sox third base coach on Oct. 31, 2006.

 

Kusnyer, 61, has spent the last 11 seasons (1997-2007) as the White Sox bullpen coach and also held the position from 1980-87.

 

The rest of the White Sox coaching staff will return intact in 2008: manager Ozzie Guillen, first base coach Harold Baines and bench coach Joey Cora return for their fifth seasons; pitching coach Don Cooper is back for his sixth full season; hitting coach Greg Walker starts his fifth full season and sixth overall; and bullpen catcher Mark Salas is back for his second season with the Sox. "

 

The Scott Merkin story on whitesox.com has quotes from Ozzie.

 

10/05/2007 6:41 PM ET

Shines, Kusnyer off the coaching staff

Guillen looking to move team in different direction after poor '07

By Scott Merkin / MLB.com

 

Art Kusnyer will stay in the White Sox organization, working with Minor Leaguers. (Ron Vesely/Getty Images)

White Sox Headlines

 

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The fact that Razor Shines' contract wasn't renewed for 2008 shouldn't be taken as a direct reflection of the job done by the team's third-base coach during the 2007 season.

Instead, manager Ozzie Guillen wants to go a different direction with this particular position on his staff.

 

"Razor did a tremendous job, and I have a lot of respect for him as a baseball man," said Guillen after the move was announced on Friday. "He didn't get fired because he didn't do his job. He got fired because we're going in a different way, need someone out there with different ideas than I have, the coaches have.

 

"I don't think he's the right guy for that situation. But I don't have any complaints about Razor Shines whatsoever. It's just time we have different ideas for next year."

 

Whereas Shines, 50, was let go, bullpen coach Art Kusnyer, 61, was reassigned within the organization. Guillen will lead the search for both replacements, having been given control of the staff's hirings and dismissals by general manager Ken Williams.

 

Kusnyer had held his position for the past 11 years, beginning in 1997, and previously held the same job with the White Sox from 1980-87. He missed the team's road trips in September after undergoing eye surgery.

 

"'Cave,' I think he had a lot of health problems this year," said Guillen, referring to Kusnyer by his commonly known nickname, adding that Kusnyer will stay in the organization, working with Minor Leaguers. "He gave baseball everything in the past, and I think it was time to step out."

 

"It's going to be very difficult to replace [Kusnyer]," added pitching coach Don Cooper. "He will be remembered because of ... let's say his uniqueness. The things he would say. ... I might be doing something at home and just bust out laughing thinking about something crazy he said. He really is one of the unheralded characters of the game. Anyone who knew him or came in touch with him, playing or coaching, I'm sure they will never forget him."

 

If Guillen chooses to stay in-house to find a replacement for Kusnyer, there appears to be plenty of candidates currently serving as pitching coaches within the Minor League system. That list includes Juan Nieves (Triple-A Charlotte), Richard Dotson (Double-A Birmingham) and Curt Hasler (Great Falls), as well as Omer Munoz, who worked with the White Sox this past season.

 

As far as Shines' replacement is concerned, Guillen sounds as though he wants someone who can multitask and work on such fundamental skills as baserunning and situational baseball.

 

"When we talk about the stuff we're going to do, we need someone to step it up and do those type of things," Guillen said. "[bench coach] Joey Cora has a lot of stuff to worry about, and he doesn't need that worry on his shoulders.

 

"This decision, I have to be patient. I have to be the way I did it with Razor. Make sure I push the right buttons. One thing about me, I don't like to fire people, release people, and the last two years, I had to do it with coaches. It's not something I look forward to, but hopefully, I won't have to do it again in my career. But you never know."

 

Guillen hired Shines to replace Tim Raines on his coaching staff last year, with Raines having replaced Rafael Santana. Shines, who joined the White Sox on June 21, 2000, and managed six seasons in the system, was surprised by the move, but not shocked.

 

"Ozzie told me they wanted to go in a different direction. He told me I did a good job," Shines said. "I did the best job I could. I was in the organization for a long time and would like to think I helped a lot of young players get to the Majors."

 

The removal of Kusnyer and Shines from the staff stands as the only changes for 2008, with Cooper, Cora, first-base coach Harold Baines, hitting coach Greg Walker and bullpen catcher Mark Salas returning. On a personal level, Shines would like to continue to coach in the Major Leagues if the opportunity affords itself.

 

Ultimately, though, he became a victim of the team's poor season, with Guillen looking to move in a different direction for improvement, beginning now.

 

"I don't wish them any bad luck," Shines said. "Ozzie Guillen was good to me, and Kenny Williams was extremely good to me. He got me into the organization. I wish all of them nothing bad and only the very best."

 

"I'm the one who [gave him] a shot at the big league level, but unfortunately, it didn't work out," added Guillen. "It wasn't because we win or lose. It's because I need someone to work on some stuff, and he wasn't the right guy to have that job."

 

 

[nitetrain8601]

Owned. Also, I hate how people allude to inside knowledge of the locker room, but just won't flat out say the info. It drives me nuts. If you're going to say something, say it completely with the whole story. If you don't feel like it, don't bring it up.

Edited October 6, 2007 by nitetrain8601

[Dick Allen]

Owned. Also, I hate how people allude to inside knowledge of the locker room, but just won't flat out say the info. It drives me nuts. If you're going to say something, say it completely with the whole story. If you don't feel like it, don't bring it up.

It wasn't about being owned. She was not looking at what I was referring to.

[Steff]

Well I can guess it, it really doesn't need to be PM'd because if it's bantered about here as fact, the board should know about it anyways.

 

 

 

No offense, but there are a lot of folks associated with the Sox - including coaches and players themselves - who have big mouths and run them at any sign of attention. And don't even get me started on folks that work in the office or a friend of friend who's uncle's cousin is a shareholder. Just because someone doesn't disclose who said what doesn't mean their information is any more or less reliable. At the end of the day it's a post on a message board and it's helpful to keep that in mind.

 

 

[fathom]

Well I can guess it, it really doesn't need to be PM'd because if it's bantered about here as fact, the board should know about it anyways. Further I recall Guillen saying to the press when or shortly after Tracey was demoted, Tracey would be back if the team needed him. Later in the year, he was.

 

I will admit straight out I have a very hard time taking much of anything you state about Guillen as gospel because I've seen, in my opinion, some irrational bashing bordering on a vendetta against Guillen from your posts. Nothing personal but I sense a real bias, where everything is Guillen's fault and I have watched enough baseball to know better.

 

This information came around the time of the Mariotti incident, and you can ask people on this site who the first person to know about Ozzie calling Mariotti a f** was. If you don't want to trust the information I give you, that's fine. But I'll continue to use the information I hear from people I trust in order to shape my opinion on things.

[Steff]

The Scott Merkin story on whitesox.com has quotes from Ozzie.

 

 

I was reading the press release. That has way more info.

[fathom]

Owned. Also, I hate how people allude to inside knowledge of the locker room, but just won't flat out say the info. It drives me nuts. If you're going to say something, say it completely with the whole story. If you don't feel like it, don't bring it up.

 

Because some of us might not trust every lurker and poster on this site with information that is either very secretive or hurtful to the organization.

[Steff]

It wasn't about being owned. She was not looking at what I was referring to.

 

Please don't even bother. I'm so used to the 2 year old replies they don't even phase me anymore.

 

 

[DBAHO]

So wait a minute, Razor Shines was fired according to Ozzie because "He was too much like Ozzie!?"

 

I don't see how that makes much sense to be honest.

[29andPoplar]

Just because someone doesn't disclose who said what doesn't mean their information is any more or less reliable. At the end of the day it's a post on a message board and it's helpful to keep that in mind.

 

The only reason I question things is because I am fortunate to be able to spend time around the team almost every spring. That doesnt make me an authority, but when I see something posted here that in my opinion is a bit, shall we say cockeyed, I will ask questions for clarity's sake. It is not necessarily that I'm doubting anyone, although there are those I do doubt but that's neither here nor there.

[Steff]

The only reason I question things is because I am fortunate to be able to spend time around the team almost every spring. That doesnt make me an authority, but when I see something posted here that in my opinion is a bit, shall we say cockeyed, I will ask questions for clarity's sake. It is not necessarily that I'm doubting anyone, although there are those I do doubt but that's neither here nor there.

 

 

Among other things, I've been going to spring training for 13 years... if I questioned everyone's opinion which I disagreed with as a result I'd have over 10 million posts. Just because it's cockeyed to you doesn't mean it's not clear to someone else. Though you may not be doing it intentionally, it does seem as if your word is law and anyone else who has a different experience is FOS.

 

 

[29andPoplar]

Because some of us might not trust every lurker and poster on this site with information that is either very secretive or hurtful to the organization.

 

When it's posted in wink-wink nudge-nudge halfspeak, it can be misinterpreted ... very easily ... and that can prove to be more hurtful.

 

I am pretty upfront as to how I'm connected, actually I'm not, I spend a lot of time at spring training, know some people in the neighborhood who have connects and am willing to ask questions of Sox personnel and always get what I deem is a pretty straight answer.

[29andPoplar]

Among other things, I've been going to spring training for 13 years... if I questioned everyone's opinion which I disagreed with as a result I'd have over 10 million posts. Just because it's cockeyed to you doesn't mean it's not clear to someone else. Though you may not be doing it intentionally, it does seem as if your word is law and anyone else who has a different experience is FOS.

 

Well that's great, Tucson is a wonderful place, so is/was Sarasota.

 

Funny about your last sentence, I have the exact same impression of you.

[29andPoplar]

But I'll continue to use the information I hear from people I trust in order to shape my opinion on things.

 

As well you should. Me too!

[Steff]

Funny about your last sentence, I have the exact same impression of you.

 

 

My opinion is never law. That's ignorant and I call it out on a regular basis. If the search function worked you could correct that impression.

 

 

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Very good stuff, 29...

[29andPoplar]

My opinion is never law. That's ignorant and I call it out on a regular basis. If the search function worked you could correct that impression.

 

My opinion is never law either so we agree on that. I too will call out stuff very directly if I strongly feel something is off base, otherwise I would just as soon leave it alone like lots of stuff in game threads. Anyways I guess we also agree on impressions of one another and it's fine by me and hopefully it's fine by you too.

[Steff]

My opinion is never law either so we agree on that. I too will call out stuff very directly if I strongly feel something is off base, otherwise I would just as soon leave it alone like lots of stuff in game threads. Anyways I guess we also agree on impressions of one another and it's fine by me and hopefully it's fine by you too.

 

 

I just have this thread to go on. I don't recall anything memorable previous to tonite. Though I have barely posted/read since you've been a member.

 

 

[Steve9347]

There are three guarantees in life

 

1) death

2) paying taxes

3) When you see Steff is posting you can assume there is an argument.

 

29, don't bother, I've tried... it's like talking to a brick wall. Oh, and she's "made" so don't be surprised if you end up suspended because of a fair argument with her.

 

I'm sure this perfectly honest post will have me suspended as well... that's life. Go Sox.

[Heads22]

Let's get back to the topic at hand...

[Chisoxfn]

Really, how do you know this, particularly the first part?

 

If Guillen had an ungodly hatred for Sean Tracey I find it extremely hard to believe he would have pitched again for the White Sox, which he did.

Guillen had threatened that he would do everything he could to prevent Tracey from ever playing in the bigs. He eventually got a talking to from the front office (I believe) and Ozzie did eventually back down from this. But at the time the kid got so much s*** thrown at him from Ozzie it was beyond ridiculous. He isn't the first young player nor will he be the last young player that will always have a bitter taste of Ozzie (at the same time I'm sure there are others that have played for him and love him to death).

 

I have heard this from both Fathom and someone I know who played with Tracey at UCI (although the part about Shines was mainly from Fathom and the part about Tracey's distaste for Ozzie was from the person who played with Tracey). For the record I'm biased because I think Sean Tracey is one of the nicest players I've ever met and was also the best interview I've ever done.

[daa84]

i am also still wondering about the stories of the two minor league players referred to by steff....i mean if the stories came from them posting on here in the past why can't it be posted now? from an objective view point i also agree with 29th that it is extremely frustrating when people post inside info like it is fact and then dont clarify on it....i guess i just dont see it being all that "hurtful to the organization"

Edited October 6, 2007 by daa84

[BearSox]

what was the big gripe about Shines? I always liked him and I thought he did a fine job as our 3B coach... I guess to be a 3B coach on this team, you always have to be sending runner home...