Razor Shines....

[Rex Hudler]

I'm quite surprised at the negative statements made about Razor. Those seem to be the exact opposite of the impression I got of him in dealing with him over a season.

 

First off Razor is a tough man to get to know. He has a very rough exterior and is a control freak. He's like that dad that will b**** at you about EVERYTHING you do wrong. He isn't very warm if he doesn't know you. Catch is, the players quickly learn if they actually do things the right way, he is a very good guy to play for and they come to love playing for him. Now they may not actually love him, but they sure as hell respect him.

 

My experience with him was similar. At first you kind of walked on eggshells around him because he had that reputation and you would see how he'd handle players (I'm talking batting practice, pre-game, clubhouse, etc.). But once he sized you up and you came to understand what he is trying to accomplish, he was a pleasure to work with.

 

He was also very much a Christian and a family man. I don't know if I ever heard him curse. I know the players did not when he was around. No one is perfect so I am not saying he never does. I've also been around him in off-the-field environments and he was the same. Doesn't drink at all either if I recall correctly (might be wrong on that one).

 

Who knows, maybe once he got to the big leagues Ozzie corrupted him? ha ha

 

I see Razor as a leader. He leads, players follow. Not sure his personality would truly fit in as an assistant, especially one with Ozzie's demeanor. I truly belive this situation was due to the two not being a good fit. I'm not saying Ozzie is the Devil and Razor is a Saint. Just that they are different types of people. Whether Razor ever gets his shot to be a Major League manager or not, I think he was one of the best Minor League managers I ever saw. Wally Backman was the only one that compared, and they were very different people with different styles.

[29andPoplar]

I'm quite surprised at the negative statements made about Razor. Those seem to be the exact opposite of the impression I got of him in dealing with him over a season.

 

First off Razor is a tough man to get to know. He has a very rough exterior and is a control freak. He's like that dad that will b**** at you about EVERYTHING you do wrong. He isn't very warm if he doesn't know you. Catch is, the players quickly learn if they actually do things the right way, he is a very good guy to play for and they come to love playing for him. Now they may not actually love him, but they sure as hell respect him.

 

My experience with him was similar. At first you kind of walked on eggshells around him because he had that reputation and you would see how he'd handle players (I'm talking batting practice, pre-game, clubhouse, etc.). But once he sized you up and you came to understand what he is trying to accomplish, he was a pleasure to work with.

 

He was also very much a Christian and a family man. I don't know if I ever heard him curse. I know the players did not when he was around. No one is perfect so I am not saying he never does. I've also been around him in off-the-field environments and he was the same. Doesn't drink at all either if I recall correctly (might be wrong on that one).

 

Who knows, maybe once he got to the big leagues Ozzie corrupted him? ha ha

 

I see Razor as a leader. He leads, players follow. Not sure his personality would truly fit in as an assistant, especially one with Ozzie's demeanor. I truly belive this situation was due to the two not being a good fit. I'm not saying Ozzie is the Devil and Razor is a Saint. Just that they are different types of people. Whether Razor ever gets his shot to be a Major League manager or not, I think he was one of the best Minor League managers I ever saw. Wally Backman was the only one that compared, and they were very different people with different styles.

 

Very informative, it sounds like you either work for or with the Birmingham club, thank you for your comments.

 

My impression of Shines although much more limited than your experiences, is he is a strong willed guy and I would agree I see a bit of a tough exterior, kind of like many leaders in todays sports world have a tough exterior.

 

I would also agree with you that it's very possible Razor and Ozzie are different types of people. When I see Guillen's explanation on the White Sox site, it makes sense to me and I accept it at face value. They want a different skillset from the 3B coach and that's ok, it happens a lot around the major leagues.

 

From the 3-4 interviews I heard with him, he sounded very family oriented and some religious values sort of came out.

 

Thanks again for your insight, as I said it was very informative.

[Gregory Pratt]

What kind of "second chance" did Razor Shines expect Ozzie Guillen to give Sean Tracey? What kind of second chance can you give a baseball player with absolutely hideous control coupled with mediocre stuff (a 90 MPH fastball isn't electric) who doesn't do the one thing asked of him -- not to be good, not to dominate an inning, but to simply plunk a guy who missed twice then quit?

 

Besides that, Poplar asked me to explain what I've heard -- and Steff did that, so I have nothing else to add. I doubt that this team's future will be impacted by the absence of Razor Shines.

[29andPoplar]

Guillen had threatened that he would do everything he could to prevent Tracey from ever playing in the bigs. He eventually got a talking to from the front office (I believe) and Ozzie did eventually back down from this. But at the time the kid got so much s*** thrown at him from Ozzie it was beyond ridiculous. He isn't the first young player nor will he be the last young player that will always have a bitter taste of Ozzie (at the same time I'm sure there are others that have played for him and love him to death).

 

I have heard this from both Fathom and someone I know who played with Tracey at UCI (although the part about Shines was mainly from Fathom and the part about Tracey's distaste for Ozzie was from the person who played with Tracey). For the record I'm biased because I think Sean Tracey is one of the nicest players I've ever met and was also the best interview I've ever done.

 

Also very informative, great comments chisoxfn.

 

I would guess another player who has a bitter taste of Guillen would be Arnie Munoz.

 

Guillen is like Razor Shines in one way, they will both be hard on young players to hopefully make them better. Doesn't mean there isn't a better way, maybe a softer approach works with some guys. And as you know I'm sure, there are always players who will dislike a coach or manager, and sometimes that dislike is warranted.

 

The only thing I knew for sure about Sean Tracey was this, the pitching people were always always always after him to throw strikes and not be afraid of contact and trust his stuff, and work hard to keep his mechanics in check. Sean is 27 now. I figured if he had the "right stuff" so to speak, he would have made it in Baltimore, a place with pitching woes and a highly respected pitching coach. That didn't happen.

 

Also I appreciate your honesty in stating you may be biased, but from reading this post and others I would say you are not biased at all. It seems like you try to look at all sides and express that in your posts, which I always enjoy reading by the way.

[Gregory Pratt]

Oh, I'll add two cents to Ozzie+players: Scott Steroidwise and Ozzie had a rough relationship, and from what I've heard that applies to most pitchers who go out and don't throw strikes and suck. Chris Stewart has great things to say about Ozzie, from what I heard from someone who plays in the Rangers minor league system. "He's a good guy who hates the media," is how I was told.

[witesoxfan]

Just for the record, I too cannot complete a sentence without swearing.

[Steve9347]

Just for the record, I too cannot complete a sentence without swearing.

you just did.

[witesoxfan]

you just did.

 

thats just not f***ing fair

[elrockinMT]

No offense, but there are a lot of folks associated with the Sox - including coaches and players themselves - who have big mouths and run them at any sign of attention. And don't even get me started on folks that work in the office or a friend of friend who's uncle's cousin is a shareholder. Just because someone doesn't disclose who said what doesn't mean their information is any more or less reliable. At the end of the day it's a post on a message board and it's helpful to keep that in mind.

 

 

I was doing some family history research awhile back and was told that I had a realtive who played for the Sox back in the 20's or 30's and he threw a no-hitter. Don't know his name though. I think that may qualify me as an insider expert. What do you think? You do make a good point Steff.

Edited October 8, 2007 by elrockinMT

[minorsfan]

I was there for a month this past year and heard plenty of examples of his vile mouth with my own ears. [Edited] He's a disgusting man.

 

[Edited]

 

 

Anybody who knows Razor will defend him against these ridiculous accusations. You obviously have him confused with someone else. People who really know Razor know these statements are NOT true. He doesn't drink, doesn't frequent bars and I've never ever heard the "N" word come out of his mouth, much less him disrespect others.

 

 

And I guess you were also present when all this stuff happened-- no hearsay, eavesdropping on conversations you are not involved in. You are conveniently at the same bar (once again he doesn't drink) at the same time he got asked to leave for offending females? What is the name of this "frequented mexican restaurant" in Tucson or Chicago???

 

Are you affiliated with the Sox and privy to all this knowledge first hand? It is hard to take what you say at face value without corroboration from another witness. Your claims are unsubstantiated vague innuendos.

 

Be careful what you say with these outrageous remarks. I am no lawyer, but I think it is called slander-- when you make malicious false and defamatory statements implied to be factual that harms a persons reputation.

 

I feel obligated to defend him as I have know him and his family for a long time, since his playing days in Indianapolis.

Edited October 9, 2007 by kapkomet

[3E8]

Let's not get bogged down with the 'details' or 'facts'

[29andPoplar]

Let's not get bogged down with the 'details' or 'facts'

 

I applaud his post actually. He is making just as strong a statement from the other end of the spectrum, he is stating he knows Shines personally and is defending him, nothing wrong with that, unless I'm missing something?

[3E8]

I was just being facetious, I share your sentiments

[NorthSideSox72]

Pre-emptive shot across the bow here... I think its good we are delving into the reliability of information being provided, but let's be careful not to insult any of the specific posters here. Just as important, unless you are 100% sure of fact, let's avoid any accusations of conduct of players and coaches as well. Just a warning.

 

[southsideirish71]

Pre-emptive shot across the bow here... I think its good we are delving into the reliability of information being provided, but let's be careful not to insult any of the specific posters here. Just as important, unless you are 100% sure of fact, let's avoid any accusations of conduct of players and coaches as well. Just a warning.

 

So how long before this thread is quoted with posters handles in an SI issue like before.

 

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

So how long before this thread is quoted with posters handles in an SI issue like before.

Let's hope not. Given some of the posts, that could cause some problems, regardless of what is or is not true.

 

[southsideirish71]

Let's hope not. Given some of the posts, that could cause some problems, regardless of what is or is not true.

 

to the admins:

 

Just a thought, based on the conversation here it might be wise to clean some of this up before Mr. Google Bot or a good caching engine comes by and makes this permanent searchable content.

[fathom]

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune....hes-corner.html

 

Looks like we found his replacement.

[kapkomet]

Posters here have never said he drank or was drunk, so let's take that off the table straight away. And furthermore, the poster quoted was offended at what Mr. Shines allegedly was saying in a public place. I wasn't there, I don't know. But this is far from "slander".

 

I'll edit the content for now, but let's be clear about what things are and are not.

 

If anyone has a problem, let one of the admins know.

 

 

 

 

[Steff]

[Edited]

I feel obligated to defend him as I have know him and his family for a long time, since his playing days in Indianapolis.

 

 

I can appreciate your defense. It's a shame you are unable to respond in kind. It is my right to post my opinion of him based on incidents as I have seen and heard them. I'm sure it's hard to hear negative things about someone you have seen in a different light, but I saw what I saw and heard what I heard.

 

And for the record I never said the man drank or was drunk.

 

[Kid Gleason]

Posters here have never said he drank or was drunk, so let's take that off the table straight away. And furthermore, the poster quoted was offended at what Mr. Shines allegedly was saying in a public place. I wasn't there, I don't know. But this is far from "slander".

 

I'll edit the content for now, but let's be clear about what things are and are not.

 

If anyone has a problem, let one of the admins know.

 

It's a tough one though, as I can easily say I was in a bar and saw (whoever) there and they were doing (whatever). Without one other person to back it up, it's just your word and is tough to present as actual "fact".

 

I saw George Bush and Michael Moore in a bar having drinks, hitting on girls, and singing Irish drinking songs while holding hands. This was in Alaska though...so I doubt anybody else here saw it.

[southsider2k5]

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune....hes-corner.html

 

Looks like we found his replacement.

 

Lacheman would be a much better bench coach than 3rd base coach.

[kapkomet]

It's a tough one though, as I can easily say I was in a bar and saw (whoever) there and they were doing (whatever). Without one other person to back it up, it's just your word and is tough to present as actual "fact".

 

I saw George Bush and Michael Moore in a bar having drinks, hitting on girls, and singing Irish drinking songs while holding hands. This was in Alaska though...so I doubt anybody else here saw it.

Yes, that's true. It amazes me, though, when one person says one thing, it's totally accepted, and when another says something, it's always a fight. It's ridiculous, actually. People express opinions here all the time and their personal experiences. There's some people who do make stuff up and there's people who don't. Then, there's people who just try to discredit everything anyone says.

 

I guess it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

 

[Kid Gleason]

Yes, that's true. It amazes me, though, when one person says one thing, it's totally accepted, and when another says something, it's always a fight. It's ridiculous, actually. People express opinions here all the time and their personal experiences. There's some people who do make stuff up and there's people who don't. Then, there's people who just try to discredit everything anyone says.

 

I guess it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

 

Problem is that some people tend to rub people the wrong way. Doesn't matter if what they say is true 90% of the time, if they come across as "holier than thou", it really doesn't matter. Even if they admit their mistakes and not being right, if the initial post is always "that way", it will always lead to a fight.

[kapkomet]

Problem is that some people tend to rub people the wrong way. Doesn't matter if what they say is true 90% of the time, if they come across as "holier than thou", it really doesn't matter. Even if they admit their mistakes and not being right, if the initial post is always "that way", it will always lead to a fight.

I agree with that, but it goes all ways for all posters. Or at least it should.