Chris Young.....

[Gene Honda Civic]

The irony is that Arizona had Anderson rated above Young as well.

Says Phil Rogers... Logic and Arizona execs say different.

Arizona got lucky. Heck who knows, maybe Anderson away from his arch nemesis Ozzie Guillen develops like everyone thought he could.

Who here projected him to become more than a solid outfielder? Young was the one who was regularly tapped with future stardom.

[Wanne]

Says Phil Rogers... Logic and Arizona execs say different.

 

What would you expect them to say?

[WHITESOXRANDY]

If Ken Williams seriously thought Anderson was a better prospect than I'm gonna call for his firing. I was under the impression they had wanted Young and the deal wouldn't have been done with BA. I decided if the Sox had to have another starter I could live with it but jesus, if its true what a f***ing horrible move (and I would have said the exact same thing at the time of the trade and likely did say that they better not have given up Young instead of Anderson).

 

Plus, lets not act as if Young was a diamond in the rought, immediately after being dealt he was ranked by BA as one fo the better prospects in baseball and was already in the plans to be the Dbacks everyday CFer (a spring training injury slowed down that process a bit, IIRC).

 

Geeze I want to vomit based on this.

 

 

DITTO !

 

IF this turns out to actually be true then I no longer have any confidence in KW to get the Sox back to the playoffs and I'm now officially in the KW got lucky in 2005 camp and I want a new GM for the Sox !

[T R U]

Well I guess then there's the real issue at hand. Do you feel we can compete next year or not. If not, than I can see the reasoning for preferring Young to Javy. If you think we can, Javy helps this team more.

 

We wont contend next year, im almost sure of that

[Vance Law]

If we were to believe Rogers, the D'backs called up the White Sox after they traded their starting CFer from their WS team and asked for their projected '06 CFer. Why would they do that? I'll tell you... So that they could "work down" from and ask for the guy they really wanted.

 

You, um, don't actually know that unless you were in on the trade discussions, and my guess is that you weren't. And that isn't at all what the article says or implies.

 

My point stands that if you believe Rogers, Arizona is just as "dumb" for wanting Anderson over Young, who has a lot of upside, power and speed, but was also a .295 OBP lead-off hitter this year.

 

 

[29andPoplar]

We wont contend next year, im almost sure of that

 

Maybe you're right but I have this long standing habit of seeing what the White Sox do in the winter and up through spring training, and what the other teams in the division do during the same time frame before making such pronouncements.

 

How anyone can say they will or won't contend, pretending or assuming they know what moves can or cannot be made, is beyond me. No one here knows what budget flexibility they have, who might be intereseted in White Sox players around the league, and all sorts of other factors.

 

I would espouse a wait and see what happens mindset. But that's just me.

[T R U]

Maybe you're right but I have this long standing habit of seeing what the White Sox do in the winter and up through spring training, and what the other teams in the division do during the same time frame before making such pronouncements.

 

How anyone can say they will or won't contend, pretending or assuming they know what moves can or cannot be made, is beyond me. No one here knows what budget flexibility they have, who might be intereseted in White Sox players around the league, and all sorts of other factors.

 

I would espouse a wait and see what happens mindset. But that's just me.

 

I never said my stance wont change, but Ive got a long standing habit of not assuming were going to make all the right moves to be a contending team.. how much higher can the payroll go? Who are we going to move and are we even going to get good return back? I am not going to assume we will, so I am pretty confident right now seeing the other team in our division and what they already have now in comparison to us to say that we wont be contending next season..

[SkokieSox]

I never said my stance wont change, but Ive got a long standing habit of not assuming were going to make all the right moves to be a contending team.. how much higher can the payroll go? Who are we going to move and are we even going to get good return back? I am not going to assume we will, so I am pretty confident right now seeing the other team in our division and what they already have now in comparison to us to say that we wont be contending next season..

 

That's the spirit!

[CWSGuy406]

That's the spirit!

 

He's not saying anything that's untrue. We're looking at having to catch two teams ahead, both of which 87-95 win teams. We're looking at another team who is anywhere from a 75-85 win team in the Twins. Even if you want to where the black-and-white colored glasses and believe the Sox underachieved this year -- you'd have a hard time convincing me of that, their Pythag was actually 67-95 -- I still can't see how you can peg the current group of guys as better than an 80 win team. That means the Sox have to -- somewhere, somehow -- make up ten wins (to even start talking about contention -- 90 wins didn't get you in this year). Even with free agency and trades, that's a lot of ground to make up.

 

That's not to say anything 29th said w/r/t next season is wrong, just that I can understand where the pessimistic people are coming from. It's hard to be very optimistic about the Sox future.

[Gene Honda Civic]

You, um, don't actually know that unless you were in on the trade discussions, and my guess is that you weren't. And that isn't at all what the article says or implies.

 

My point stands that if you believe Rogers, Arizona is just as "dumb" for wanting Anderson over Young, who has a lot of upside, power and speed, but was also a .295 OBP lead-off hitter this year.

Your source wasn't involved in the trade discussions, and is directly refuted by common sense and an Arizona official.

[29andPoplar]

I never said my stance wont change, but Ive got a long standing habit of not assuming were going to make all the right moves to be a contending team.. how much higher can the payroll go? Who are we going to move and are we even going to get good return back? I am not going to assume we will, so I am pretty confident right now seeing the other team in our division and what they already have now in comparison to us to say that we wont be contending next season..

 

It's good you have an open mind, but also bear in mind it's not just about one team in the division making the "right" moves, let's say for the sake of discussion the White Sox.

 

All teams make moves, and every team in the Central will make moves. The complexion of each team will change. Cleveland, Detroit, Minnesota, KC will all look differently. Some will make more changes than others.

 

The key factor is this, some moves for these teams will work out, some won't. It is way to soon to simply look at the White Sox, basically in a vacuum, and predict they will struggle. I certainly agree it's possible, even very possible. It's also possible the other teams will make some moves that won't work out which will negatively impact their results. Which is why I like to look at things at the end of spring and not much before.

[Vance Law]

Your source wasn't involved in the trade discussions, and is directly refuted by common sense and an Arizona official.

 

 

Not positive who you mean by "[my] source." If you are referring to Rogers, he isn't 'mine.' He's the guy whose article is referenced in the thread. I'm not saying I buy or agree with what he says. That's why I used the conditional, 'if'.

 

If one believes Rogers, then................

 

If you are saying an Arizona official has said whatever about the trade, I have not seen it, and would like to.

 

If one assumes what you are saying is true, that Arizona always wanted Young, not Anderson, then we are right where we were before this article, that the deal would not have gotten have gotten done offering them Anderson.

 

And folks can decide for themselves whether or not they like the trade, coming off a World Series season made possible by the best pitching in the league, fortifying that pitching even further with another above average-to-excellent starter with no injury history and who eats 200+ innings. Sacrificing some of the future in an attempt to win again now with a World Series team made even better on paper with the additions of Thome and Vazquez.

 

That "now" being:

 

'06- a subpar year for Vazquez though he pitched 200 innings vs. Young playing in the minors

'07- a 3.74 ERA 200 innings/200strikeouts vs. a CF with a .295 OBP and a .763 OPS

[southsider2k5]

Says Phil Rogers... Logic and Arizona execs say different.

 

Who here projected him to become more than a solid outfielder? Young was the one who was regularly tapped with future stardom.

 

Baseball America in 2005 had Brian Anderson rated as the Sox #1 prospect, with Ryan Sweeney as #2. Chris Young was rated #6. Throwing this in as a FWIW, they also had Josh Fields as #4.

 

2006 they had Sweeney #1, and Fields #2, with Anderson taken off of the list because of his time with the big club. They did have Young rated ahead of Sweeney and Fields in the Top 100 though.

 

 

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/featu...s/whitesox.html

[Jeremy]

Eat it Rogers.

 

If Kenny "misevaluated" Young, then so did every other team in baseball since he didn't get drafted till the 16th round. Arizona certainly had it "wrong" if they wanted Anderson over Young. So if you buy Rogers' story, Arizona is just as "dumb" or "bad at evaluating talent" as the Sox, they just got lucky. Every team gets unlucky sometimes. Every team gets lucky sometimes, except the Cubs. Swept.

 

I said people were grasping at straws by calling Rogers a liar without any basis but in all honesty, it was surprising to me that Byrnes wouldn't have targeted Young when you look at the other shrewd moves he's made. Now that there's a report that they preferred Young, I'm more inclined to believe that though I still don't think Rogers is making things up out of thin air.

 

The team might've scouted well when they drafted Young in the 16th round. However, I can't see why you'd think that a trade should be valuated based on the circumstances that existed roughly four years before the deal was made. There's absolutely no evidence that most teams would've traded Young for Vazquez in 2005.

 

It's amazing that pitching was once valued among our fan base, but now it is all over. Who has more value? Vazquez. Right now, on this team, and with the FA market as it is, I'm glad the Sox have Vazquez over that of Young.

 

It would be shocking to me if a successful and highly promising young player on his rookie deal would be more valuable than a good 30 year old starter who makes $11 million a year. Age and economics are huge, huge factors when considering a player's trade value.

 

Above average in pitching simply has a lot of value, especially this upcoming year where there is none available this offseason. It frees the Sox to move Garland for other holes, and to work in some of the younger pitching. Young still needs to develop, especially his OBP. He may improve leaps and bounds next year, or he may regress a little bit. No one knows, but Vazquez gives you stability - 200 innings and 200 K's. That has a lot of value in MLB, more than Young, as there is far more CF available than quality starting pitchers.

 

I agree that pitching is valuable in this market and that Vazquez might outperform Young next season but I don't think that leads to the conclusion that he's worth more than Young. There's a huge premium on cheap young players right now. Even the Yankees stopped trading their top prospects. Just look at the Garcia trade as a reference point. Freddy wasn't tons more valuable than Vazquez when he was traded. Vazquez's most recent season is better but career wise, age wise, and contract wise they're similar. Freddy wasn't enough to fetch a top 50 prospect whereas Young was rated 12 by BA and number one by BP. The fact that his OBP wasn't great in his first season - most everything else was - doesn't negate that.

 

Baseball America in 2005 had Brian Anderson rated as the Sox #1 prospect, with Ryan Sweeney as #2. Chris Young was rated #6. Throwing this in as a FWIW, they also had Josh Fields as #4.

 

2006 they had Sweeney #1, and Fields #2, with Anderson taken off of the list because of his time with the big club. They did have Young rated ahead of Sweeney and Fields in the Top 100 though.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/featu...s/whitesox.html

 

Yeah, the 2006 rankings are the ones with the most bearing here and they had him rated as the 23 best prospect. The analytical community regarded Chris even more highly, as BP rated him the 8th best prospect in baseball at that time. I think that underscores the fact that Kenny traded a very highly regarded player because he thought the return would be worth it and/or because he though Young was overrated. Either way, he was dead wrong. He made a very dangerous and IMO controversial decision that only seems to look worse as time passes.

 

 

 

[Chombi]

All that I read seems to be right on.

 

He wasn't our top rated prospect and going from that standpoint Kenny didn't make the wrong move. At the same time, Young was looked at as a potential 30-30 guy the whole time. Prospects are tough to evaluate when they aren't the blue chip kind. Young in hindsight was a mistake to deal, but hindsight is always 20-20.

 

That said. I have always hated Brian Anderson so I was upset to deal Young. Getting Vazquez and my hopes of him becoming the Javy of the Expo days made me forget about Young. It hasn't been perfect but it hasn't been bad.

 

The main problem is still talent evaluation and we can change that. Young isn't coming back, so let's save and fix what we can.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Baseball America in 2005 had Brian Anderson rated as the Sox #1 prospect, with Ryan Sweeney as #2. Chris Young was rated #6. Throwing this in as a FWIW, they also had Josh Fields as #4.

 

2006 they had Sweeney #1, and Fields #2, with Anderson taken off of the list because of his time with the big club. They did have Young rated ahead of Sweeney and Fields in the Top 100 though.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/featu...s/whitesox.html

And lists like this are a balance of readiness, level of competition, tools, ceiling, projectibility, etc. These lists aren't don't trade lists. They simply assign numbers to prospects based on subjective criteria....

 

Anderson was absolutely a better prospect than Young before the '05 season. Young still might have had the higher upside, but he had a long way to go (no games played above A-ball) and had a dangerously high strikeout rate.... After the '05 season however, Young's upside, and ability to improve even as he skipped levels, had usurped Anderson as the player most (who followed the minors daily) would be the most upset trading.

 

Heck, I had Anderson ranked ahead of Young in a baseball america type list at the end of the '05 season... But I, along with BA, had to acknowledge that Young had the far higher ceiling. He had work to do in his plate discipline, which kept him from being #1 on my own list... But the guys at my site were huge Young fans, had him #1.

 

Search the archives here. I'm sure you can find far more "don't trade Chris Young" type posts Mid-'05 through the time he was traded than you'll find "don't trade Brian Anderson" ones.... I can remember saying the Sox owed it to themselves to let Young succeed or fail within their orgainization, because he had such great potential it would be a crime to watch that talent develop in another uniform. But it's hard to find stuff here....

 

In response to this post, I went looking for one of my "don't trade chris young" rants. I didn't find any, but I stumbled on this Josh Fields gem, which I thought was fun. I wasn't a fan at the time (august '05).. I wanted him traded after a good half season in Charlotte last year.

Yes, you can't completely discount a player because of a high strikeout total, but I expect plate discipline to come along with it. While Fields is far from atrocious in terms of walk rate, he still strikes out 4 times for every walk he takes. That tells me that he doesn't command the strike zone well.

 

Chris Young is a White Sox prospect who struck out 30% of his ABs last year, and is striking out at a high rate this year. But, he carries just a 2:1 K:BB ratio, and is a plus defensive player who hits for tons of power, and has speed. (He's 5-6 with 3HR, 1 2B, and 2 SBs so far today)

 

Fields is not a top prospect. He wouldn't even crack my top 10. Ok, maybe he would sneak in at 10, but only because of his draft position. He needs at least two more years in the minors, during which he needs to, (in order)

 

1. improve his defense

2. reduce his strikeout rate

3. hit for average for a full season at a high level

4. if he continues his high strikeout total, he needs to increase his walk rate.

First, that batting line by Young (in a DH, no doubt) is ridiculous. Second, I'm amazed at how far Josh Fields has come since 8/05... He's spent a year and half since in the minors, improved his defense (though he was still the worst 3B in the AL this year), hit for average at AAA, and increased his walk rate in AAA while maintaining his K-rate... He turned himself from a guy who I'd begrudgingly include on a prospect list to a clear #1 were there a mid-season '07 list.

[Jeremy]

All that I read seems to be right on.

 

He wasn't our top rated prospect and going from that standpoint Kenny didn't make the wrong move. At the same time, Young was looked at as a potential 30-30 guy the whole time. Prospects are tough to evaluate when they aren't the blue chip kind. Young in hindsight was a mistake to deal, but hindsight is always 20-20.

 

Actually, according to the links above, Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus both thought Young was our best prospect by a large margin. Also, BP ranked Young as the 8th best prospect in the majors so for those of us who agreed with their line of thinking, he absolutely was a blue chip prospect. I might be forgetting someone but off the top of my head I'd say that Young, Rauch, Reed, BMac, and maybe Corwin Malone are the only players I can remember considering blue chippers since Garland and Kip Wells were prospects.

[Chombi]

Actually, according to the links above, Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus both thought Young was our best prospect by a large margin. Also, BP ranked Young as the 8th best prospect in the majors so for those of us who agreed with their line of thinking, he absolutely was a blue chip prospect. I might be forgetting someone but off the top of my head I'd say that Young, Rauch, Reed, BMac, and maybe Corwin Malone are the only players I can remember considering blue chippers since Garland and Kip Wells were prospects.

 

The deal was made in December of 2005. Before there list comes out I think. Usually Baseball America puts it out at the end of February or early March. So as of the day of the deal, Anderson looks to be their higher ranked prospect. I am open to proof showing otherwise.

 

Idk about BP's list and they appear to have hit it dead on with him. Was the 8 ranking for the 05' season though?

 

Either way, it was a dumb move and the more I dig...The more I can't figure out Anderson's promotions.

 

Young had a great year in 05'. K's were high so maybe that was concern.

 

Anderson doesn't appeared to have played in 04' and hardly at all in 05'. I am not sure why but I guess his high draft choice and success at Zona' must have been what carried him. Even his 03' numbers weren;t that great.

 

I remember hearing about Young in 05' and how great of a talent he looked to be. I also heard about how Anderson was in front of him though. When I heard we dealt Young, it made me sick. I can't say I thought he would do this as a rookie, but based off potential and word of mouth, it seemed he was the guy to keep.

 

Where they were ranked and all that is irrelevant because ultimately it comes down to our organization and trhey looked to have been higher on Brian Anderson.

 

All of this is just funny to me because I can see our front office gathered around the top 100 BA list and calling their writers to ask for inside info on the 06' list while trying to make this move.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Chombi and the Fungi

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I'm definiely no scout but I always felt that Young had the potential o be great and I would have been surprised if Anderson turned out o be anything special. That was just my gut feeling.

 

I would have been much happier at the time if the Sox kept Young instead.

 

But, let's face it, the first stupid move KW made was trading Rowand and Gio for Thome. I love Thome but he could have signed Frank Thomas for less money and not given up ANY players. Thomas produced about the same as Thome the last 2 years. Did KW trade Frank for personal reasons ?

 

I hope KW learns from his mistakes. The Sox can't afford to let their stars leave for no return.

 

What would have happend the last 2 seasons if KW re-signed Frank and kept Rowand, Young and Gio. Instead of paying Javy, signed a FA pitcher before 2006. And, then traded Garcia for bullpen help before 2007.

 

I know that's all hindsight but I definitely would have re-signed Frank and kept Rowand Gio. Heck, you're talking about a DH ! If Frank hadn't have been healthy like he urned out to be in 2006 it's still not hard to find a DH somewhere. They could have used Gload even.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

I'm definiely no scout but I always felt that Young had the potential o be great and I would have been surprised if Anderson turned out o be anything special. That was just my gut feeling.

 

I would have been much happier at the time if the Sox kept Young instead.

 

But, let's face it, the first stupid move KW made was trading Rowand and Gio for Thome. I love Thome but he could have signed Frank Thomas for less money and not given up ANY players. Thomas produced about the same as Thome the last 2 years. Did KW trade Frank for personal reasons ?

 

I hope KW learns from his mistakes. The Sox can't afford to let their stars leave for no return.

 

What would have happend the last 2 seasons if KW re-signed Frank and kept Rowand, Young and Gio. Instead of paying Javy, signed a FA pitcher before 2006. And, then traded Garcia for bullpen help before 2007.

 

I know that's all hindsight but I definitely would have re-signed Frank and kept Rowand Gio. Heck, you're talking about a DH ! If Frank hadn't have been healthy like he urned out to be in 2006 it's still not hard to find a DH somewhere. They could have used Gload even.

 

I was actually believing your argument for a while until you mentioned Frank Thomas.

 

You are talking about the same Frank Thomas that played 108 games the previous two seasons combined right? How were you ever going to count on that in the middle of your lineup?

 

Hindsight is 20/20; looking back, the Sox perhaps could have kept Thomas and been just fine. Looking at the future from that point in time, letting Frank go was the right move and bringing in Thome, along with coming off a World Series run brought the Sox attention they'd never had before.

 

Thus, I really doubt you would have resigned Frank; nobody counted on Frank to do anything in 2006, not even Oakland who signed him. That's why they gave him $500,000 guaranteed and not $5 million.

 

 

 

[southsideirish71]

I'm definiely no scout but I always felt that Young had the potential o be great and I would have been surprised if Anderson turned out o be anything special. That was just my gut feeling.

 

I would have been much happier at the time if the Sox kept Young instead.

 

But, let's face it, the first stupid move KW made was trading Rowand and Gio for Thome. I love Thome but he could have signed Frank Thomas for less money and not given up ANY players. Thomas produced about the same as Thome the last 2 years. Did KW trade Frank for personal reasons ?

 

I hope KW learns from his mistakes. The Sox can't afford to let their stars leave for no return.

 

What would have happend the last 2 seasons if KW re-signed Frank and kept Rowand, Young and Gio. Instead of paying Javy, signed a FA pitcher before 2006. And, then traded Garcia for bullpen help before 2007.

 

I know that's all hindsight but I definitely would have re-signed Frank and kept Rowand Gio. Heck, you're talking about a DH ! If Frank hadn't have been healthy like he urned out to be in 2006 it's still not hard to find a DH somewhere. They could have used Gload even.

 

 

 

Gload for DH, Oh give me a break. I like Gload and his approach, but a team that uses him as a DH has a rotten offense. We needed some left handed power to balance out our attack. In 05 we had a rotten offensive team. We traded Rowand who hit like crap in the 2nd half of 05. At the time of the Thome trade, we had a 6'5 275 pound man who had 2 fractures in a 2 year period. And we are not talking about a young man. He also had an option that he wanted picked up. Now the he would of signed for cheap is nice and all, but really do you think that would of happened. My hats off to the Big Hurt for overcoming those injuries, but to base our 06 hitting on a big injury question mark is a joke. Kenny did the right thing with the trade, and for all those who forget. We wouldnt of won anywhere near 90 games in 06 if Thome didnt put the entire team on his back and come out on fire. With the way our pitching in 06 perfomed out of the gate we could of been dead and buried early.

[WCSox]

I honestly think that Rogers publishes stuff like this specifically to bait disgruntled, overly-emotional people on message boards.

 

[hitlesswonder]

Thus, I really doubt you would have resigned Frank; nobody counted on Frank to do anything in 2006, not even Oakland who signed him. That's why they gave him $500,000 guaranteed and not $5 million.

 

Plus the Sox couldn't have signed him for $500,00. They would have had to pick up his option which was substantial -- at least much as they paid Thome. I wish that Thomas had somehow stayed with the Sox, but it's simply wrong to say they could have kept Thomas for less money.

[RockRaines]

I can't believe that someone is actually arguing that Josh Fields is > Chris Young, especially when you consider their swings and problems. A guy with issues against fastballs has far less potential than a guy who has issues with offspeed pitches and that's about the long/short of it. It is theoretically possible for both to collapse next year at the plate, but it is far likelier, IMO, that Fields does because people will adapt to him if he hasn't yet learned how to hit an inside fastball. People won't be giving him pitches away that he can slap out of the yard.

 

Young is a much better player because he isn't defensively retarded, has a good swing and runs the bases better.

Since when is it easier to hit a breaking pitch than a fastball?

 

And yes, offensively Josh Fields is better right now. I guess if you throw out their actual performances and statistics this season, then maybe you can make a point. Fortunately performances are documented in a very standardized way, and outside of Sb's josh was better at the plate with less time to adjust, with a little more than half of the games than Young played in. I understand that the grass is always greener to everyone on here especially in regards to Chris (Babe Ruth) Young, but the numbers dont lie.

[Vance Law]

Plus the Sox couldn't have signed him for $500,00. They would have had to pick up his option which was substantial -- at least much as they paid Thome. I wish that Thomas had somehow stayed with the Sox, but it's simply wrong to say they could have kept Thomas for less money.

 

Actually, I think they could have had Frank for less money. Once they paid his buyout ($3 mil?), they could have signed him as a free agent just like anybody else. I, however, am definitely in the camp that says getting Thome was a good move. You couldn't count on Thomas being healthy. Thome was an immediate huge upgrade for a mediocre offense with a bad OBP.

 

I do recall saying at the time of the Oakland signing, "thank god Minnesota is too stupid to make the move that Beane did."