Chris Young.....

[SkokieSox]

It's not about trading for Vazquez....it's the critical error KW made in giving up Young instead of Anderson. Now we're in a position where we're going to have to spend a lot of money on overrated center fielders this offseason.

 

Ya but the CF we go after probably will get on base and won't K at the rate of our big three. Do we really want a power hitter in CF that barely gets on base? His OBP was under .300, and granted 30 plus homeruns looks sexy, but I'm not looking for an all or nothing hitter in that spot. Especially if he were our leadoff man...

[quickman]

Ya but the CF we go after probably will get on base and won't K at the rate of our big three. Do we really want a power hitter in CF that barely gets on base? His OBP was under .300, and granted 30 plus homeruns looks sexy, but I'm not looking for an all or nothing hitter in that spot. Especially if he were our leadoff man...

 

 

I actaully believe chris young is another soriano. Its his rookie year and he will learn alot, but he reminds me of soriano. Most likely he will move down in the order as he progresses. Outside of his OBP, I think the message in this thread is we gave away a stud and we kept garbage, and thats why our system and management clearly needs help. They are in over their heads.

[southsider2k5]

Ah yes, Fathom in all his glory. Kenny Williams made a mistake, lets all celebrate.

[BearSox]

I don't care... I don't think Chris Young will be anything special anyway. Probably better then BA however, but oh well.

[Rowand44]

I don't care... I don't think Chris Young will be anything special anyway. Probably better then BA however, but oh well.

He's already pretty damn good.

[BearSox]

He's already pretty damn good.

yeah, because he hit 30 homers? What about the fact he can't hit for average and can't get on base at over a .300 clip? He is a far ass way from being good.

[Rowand44]

yeah, because he hit 30 homers? What about the fact he can't hit for average and can't get on base at over a .300 clip? He is a far ass way from being good.

.760ish ops, 27 steals, and above average defense your rookie season is pretty damn good. That's pretty damn good for a cf, period. He's got things to work on but his rookie season was a huge success.

[Steff]

Ah yes, Fathom in all his glory. Kenny Williams made a mistake, lets all celebrate.

 

 

Well.. it is a pretty big eff up, no.

[Rex Hudler]

Here is the problem with that trade. It really has nothing to do with what the D'backs or KW thought of Brian Anderson.

 

The cardinal rule of trading is this:

 

You NEVER, EVER trade your top prospect (and a potential All-Star) in a deal that makes your club only marginally better if at all. You RARELY trade your top prospect if it makes your team a lot better (obviously there are individual variables with this one).

 

Chris Young should have never been included in that deal. He had way too much upside and was a talent unlike any the Sox had in their system.

 

The acquisition of Valdez did not immediately make the Sox all that stronger. One could argue that a strong bullpen and a traveled starter along with keeping El Duque could have made the Sox a much stronger team at that point. Granted there are always a lot of "if this happened" and "we didn't know this was going to happen" factors involved in any trade, but that is why you back to the cardinal rule above. Trading a solid minor leaguer is one thing. But since the Sox had OF dept (Anderson and Sweeney) they traded the guy who had the most upside of all of them. Big mistake

 

I'll even add that we have no idea how many other teams were competing for Vasquez. Being the classic combination of head case/underachiever, I don't recall a lot of demand for the guy. He was an "I can fix him" kind of guy because of his stuff. Do you really think we could not have held and and possibly not moved either Young or Anderson? Or like I said, did we really need him at the time?

 

I said it on the day of the trade and I will say it now. That was a STUPID trade, regardless of how good Javier or Chris Young is now.

[Rowand44]

Here is the problem with that trade. It really has nothing to do with what the D'backs or KW thought of Brian Anderson.

 

The cardinal rule of trading is this:

 

You NEVER, EVER trade your top prospect (and a potential All-Star) in a deal that makes your club only marginally better if at all. You RARELY trade your top prospect if it makes your team a lot better (obviously there are individual variables with this one).

 

Chris Young should have never been included in that deal. He had way too much upside and was a talent unlike any the Sox had in their system.

 

The acquisition of Valdez did not immediately make the Sox all that stronger. One could argue that a strong bullpen and a traveled starter along with keeping El Duque could have made the Sox a much stronger team at that point. Granted there are always a lot of "if this happened" and "we didn't know this was going to happen" factors involved in any trade, but that is why you back to the cardinal rule above. Trading a solid minor leaguer is one thing. But since the Sox had OF dept (Anderson and Sweeney) they traded the guy who had the most upside of all of them. Big mistake

 

I'll even add that we have no idea how many other teams were competing for Vasquez. Being the classic combination of head case/underachiever, I don't recall a lot of demand for the guy. He was an "I can fix him" kind of guy because of his stuff. Do you really think we could not have held and and possibly not moved either Young or Anderson? Or like I said, did we really need him at the time?

 

I said it on the day of the trade and I will say it now. That was a STUPID trade, regardless of how good Javier or Chris Young is now.

 

I actually believe Detroit traded Granderson and Zumaya for Vaz but Javy invoked his no trade, I'm not 100 percent on that though. Still, I don't think you can call this a stupid trade, sure it'd be nice to have Young right now but Javy has become our 2nd best starter and was maybe even our most consistant this season. I wasn't a fan of this trade when it happened and if it's true that AZ wanted Brian instead, than it was a poorly executed trade but I'm very happy to have Javy on this club.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Rowand44

[Rex Hudler]

Javier is doing well today, but doing so on a losing team. I suspect his "success" would be much different if the heat of the spotlight/pennant race were on.

 

But my comments have nothing to do with what Javier is doing today. It remains a stupid trade for the very reasons I stated. You don't give up that kind of talent in a deal that makes you only marginally better, if at all.

[fathom]

Ah yes, Fathom in all his glory. Kenny Williams made a mistake, lets all celebrate.

 

That's just a silly post, as I'm not even close to being KW's biggest critic on this site. I probably gave KW more credit for 2005 than anyone else. However, when a report comes out that he declined to trade the awful Brian Anderson, and instead gave up one of the better young center fielders in a long time.....that's cause for criticism.

Edited October 6, 2007 by fathom

[fathom]

Javier is doing well today, but doing so on a losing team. I suspect his "success" would be much different if the heat of the spotlight/pennant race were on.

 

But my comments have nothing to do with what Javier is doing today. It remains a stupid trade for the very reasons I stated. You don't give up that kind of talent in a deal that makes you only marginally better, if at all.

 

I still believe that we make the playoffs last year if we have McCarthy in the rotation than Vazquez, especially if you gave him the run support that Vazquez got.

[ChWRoCk2]

Really? Everyone? I know that is not true. Just because you may have thought so, doesn't mean eveyone else did. That is really a ridiculous statement to make.

 

Here you go. Take a look at it yourself. Seems like many liked the trade. Trade Reaction

 

80 - Great Trade

60 - Wait and see

And a big fat 18 said terrible trade.

 

That is definitely everyone.

Readings a skill, he said everyone was upset because everyone like Young more than Anderson. Yeah people may have liked the trade but theyd have rather given up BA. At the time we didn't necessarily need Young because we had a ton of OFs that we still felt had potential like Owens and Sweeney.

 

 

[RME JICO]

Quality Starting pitching still trumps a quality positional player any day. You can overcome a shortcoming in the batting order, but it is hard to do that in the rotation.

 

The timing of this information makes it seem very questionable.

 

 

 

[Rex Hudler]

Quality Starting pitching still trumps a quality positional player any day. You can overcome a shortcoming in the batting order, but it is hard to do that in the rotation.

 

The timing of this information makes it seem very questionable.

 

So you define quality starting pitching by someone who pitches well with nothing on the line??

 

If I recall, the Sox had a pretty good starting pitching corps going into that season. The problems were more bullpen depth.

[hitlesswonder]

Javier is doing well today, but doing so on a losing team. I suspect his "success" would be much different if the heat of the spotlight/pennant race were on.

 

Vazquez pitched very well down the stretch last year in August and Sept. when the Sox were in the race (just a game or 2 out of the wild card). I've posted the numbers before....

 

That said, can anyone seriously think at this point that Williams shouldn't be fired? I like Vazquez -- I think he's a good pitcher. But he's worth nowhere near as much as Chris Young. And if the Sox simply hadn't made the trade, they would have been a stronger team in 2006 and perhaps made the playoffs.

 

The Sox have arguably the worst minor league system , and the vaunted change in philosophy of putting Laumann in charge doesn't inspire confidence at all -- his drafts were marginally better than the others.

 

The man gave up Chris Young when he didn't have to. The only prospect in the system with bat speed to hit a major league fastball. The next stupid move: trading Garland for relievers or signing Eckstein really should be the final straw.

 

 

 

 

 

[hitlesswonder]

I should probably add -- if Rogers doesn't know for sure AZ would have taken Anderson, he's done a tremendous disservice to Williams and bad job as a journalist. And if that's the case, I'd like to amend my previous comment to be that Williams should only probably be fired....

 

[elrockinMT]

You never know what you are going to get in a box of chocalates or with young talent do you? (pun intended) What I found interesting is that Young attributes his success to the likes of Razor Shines and the Sox, led by KW, fire him after the season. They also fired Tim Raines after a 2005 WS championship, which I couldn't understand. It makes you wonder if KW is firing everyone associated with the minor league teams because of his own failings in properly evaluating young talent? I hope there is more to the story and not just what it appears on the surface. Interesting also that Rogers refers to Williams as "heavy handed."

[knightni]

Javier is doing well today, but doing so on a losing team. I suspect his "success" would be much different if the heat of the spotlight/pennant race were on.

 

I think you're right.

 

I was thinking the same thing: Javy had Montreal flashbacks this year.

 

Team in the tank by June = no expectations = no pressure = a happier Vazquez.

 

[Rowand44]

I think you're right.

 

I was thinking the same thing: Javy had Montreal flashbacks this year.

 

Team in the tank by June = no expectations = no pressure = a happier Vazquez.

How do you explain his best months last season being the most pressure packed?

[knightni]

How do you explain his best months last season being the most pressure packed?

 

The team collapsed after the All Star Break in 2006, there wasn't that much pressure after then.

 

When were Javy's best months?

 

 

 

 

[Rowand44]

The team collapsed after the All Star Break in 2006, there wasn't that much pressure after then.

 

When were Javy's best months?

August and September. Yes, the team sucked in the 2nd half last season but we were in the race until about the last 2 weeks or so. He was our best pitcher down the stretch in a pennant race.

[SkokieSox]

I actaully believe chris young is another soriano. Its his rookie year and he will learn alot, but he reminds me of soriano. Most likely he will move down in the order as he progresses. Outside of his OBP, I think the message in this thread is we gave away a stud and we kept garbage, and thats why our system and management clearly needs help. They are in over their heads.

 

I don't believe this is a sky is falling event, and as someone mentioned before, Anderson was the most major league ready when we traded Rowand. It was still a team that should have been competing (just coming off the WS), and you play you're #1 pick CF if he is the most ready. Obviously his bat is overmatched in the ML. Young shows promise, and of course I would like him in CF, but the fact is under the scenerio we were at during the time of the trade, it made more sense to keep Anderson. The fact that he didn't pan out sucks, but it happens. Borchard didn't either, but you gamble and move on. Basically the 05 team was a gamble, and that time we hit.

 

In any case, it seems that our scouting and new emphasis of taking higher risk / higher ceiling players has improved, and we'll hopefully see the results upcoming.

[RockRaines]

big deal. It was aa good trade. Young is a good young player right now, but he is no superstar right now so why is everyone treating him like so?