Chris Young.....

[Balta1701]

Actually, I think they could have had Frank for less money. Once they paid his buyout ($3 mil?), they could have signed him as a free agent just like anybody else. I, however, am definitely in the camp that says getting Thome was a good move. You couldn't count on Thomas being healthy. Thome was an immediate huge upgrade for a mediocre offense with a bad OBP.

 

I do recall saying at the time of the Oakland signing, "thank god Minnesota is too stupid to make the move that Beane did."

Actually, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't work that way, at least not very well. The White Sox had basically less than a month after 2005 to sign Frank. The decision on his option had to be made within 10 days of the celebration on the field in Houston, as contractually required. If the Sox did decline his option, they could potentially have immediately resigned him if they were 100% confident that they wanted him back the next year and he was going to be healthy. But if the team wanted to wait at all to see the results of his recent surgery, or if he wanted to wait to see if some team would offer him more money...things wouldn't work. If the Sox offered Frank arbitration, and he accepted, he'd get paid $10 mil in 06. If the Sox didn't offer arbitration, the White Sox were not able to sign frank at any point between the Arbitration deadline and I believe either April or May 1. The timeline is important here; there is about 5 months where the Sox simply would not have had any way to sign him after failing to offer him arbitration.

[TLAK]

This thread brings up a lot of old, bitter memories for me. Remember the flamming I took when I whinned about KW breaking up the team?

 

The Evil Kenny Williams thread

 

I was so upset over all the moves I started to not enjoy the game, this coming off a WS trophy. By the end of spring training I decided to put it aside, shut up and just watch the guys we had. In hindsight I can't say the White Sox would be better had the deals not been done. We certainly miss Rowand but then again Thome has been a great treat to watch for these two seasons. Crede's back would have went out even if El Duke were still on the team. But the team has never played the same.

 

The '05 group competed hard and made every effort to make every play on both sides of the ball every inning of the game, they were a joy to watch. You never knew what play in a game would turn out to be the key, it often turned out that saving a single run in the third made all the difference in the ninth.

 

While some of the new pieces have nice numbers, the team has never recovered that gamesmanship and competitive edge. When I watch the young NL teams in the playoffs this year challenging every runner going from first to third, sliding hard on every 6-4 thats in range, it makes me remember how the '05 team played. Nobody had to be the hero, and thats what made heroes of them all.

 

And Rex is right about Javy, he is still a dog.

[The Ginger Kid]

All this would be moot if Brian Anderson played to his supposed potential.

[Vance Law]

syntax error

Edited October 11, 2007 by Vance Law

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I still disagree. Giving up Rowand and Gio to get a player that cost more money and gives you the same production as a player you already have is a bad move. And, getting nothing for that player is a worse move.

 

This is killing the Sox - got nothing for Ordonez, nothing for Thomas and will probably get nothing for Crede. They can't keep letting their best players go for no return and they also need to sign more free agents. They need to trade some of these guys for good young talent while they can. They have so few quality young guys that can step in and produce.

 

You can't win consistently producing nothing from the farm system and not signing free agents. The talent has to come from somewhere.

[Dick Allen]

I still disagree. Giving up Rowand and Gio to get a player that cost more money and gives you the same production as a player you already have is a bad move. And, getting nothing for that player is a worse move.

 

This is killing the Sox - got nothing for Ordonez, nothing for Thomas and will probably get nothing for Crede. They can't keep letting their best players go for no return and they also need to sign more free agents. They need to trade some of these guys for good young talent while they can. They have so few quality young guys that can step in and produce.

 

You can't win consistently producing nothing from the farm system and not signing free agents. The talent has to come from somewhere.

Your post makes little sense. They didn't trade Ordonez, but not paying him netted them a WS. They signed a free agent that year who was MVP in the World Series. They replaced Thomas with Thome who is at least his equal at this stage. Considering Frank was hurt during 2005 and wound up signing a guarantee of only $500,000, and could barely walk at the time, trading him would have gotten nothing. Keeping him may have worked out, but maybe not. Toronto gave him a lot more money this year than the Sox with the Philly money are paying Thome, and they certainly wouldn't have faired any better the past 2 seasons with Frank in the line-up instead of Thome.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Dick Allen

[Vance Law]

I still disagree. Giving up Rowand and Gio to get a player that cost more money and gives you the same production as a player you already have is a bad move.

 

This is called hindsight. You and I and lots of people would be great GMs if we could see what is going to happen in the future. Thomas was a 400 pound man who was 38 and had just missed 2 seasons with foot and ankle problems, and nobody except a guy looking back on it after it happened, could reasonably assume Thomas could stay uninjured.

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

I still disagree. Giving up Rowand and Gio to get a player that cost more money and gives you the same production as a player you already have is a bad move. And, getting nothing for that player is a worse move.

 

This is killing the Sox - got nothing for Ordonez, nothing for Thomas and will probably get nothing for Crede. They can't keep letting their best players go for no return and they also need to sign more free agents. They need to trade some of these guys for good young talent while they can. They have so few quality young guys that can step in and produce.

 

You can't win consistently producing nothing from the farm system and not signing free agents. The talent has to come from somewhere.

 

Not only do I disagree with like everything, but I think going into the 2006 season, you would have disagreed with resigning Thomas too. Honestly, I don't think there is any way you would have resigned Thomas and depended upon him for 100 games, let alone the 143 games Thome gave the Sox.

 

(and BTW, thanks for giving credit to KW for essentially stealing Gio back from Philly, while also taking Gavin Floyd, and $10 mill)

 

And, you know, believe it if you want to, but Thome was better last year than Thomas. Like way better. I don't have exact calculations, nor do I have win shares from last year, but by simply looking at OPS+ you see Thome putting up 156 to 141; a 1.014 OPS to a .926 OPS. No, you aren't getting the same production out of Thomas that you are Thome, and it's not even close. And this year, Thome's season just absolutely destroyed Thomas's. Had an OPS 120 points better than Thomas, and an OPS+ of 30 points better; Thome's the better hitter, you are not getting the production out of Thomas that you do Thome, and you are probably not going to get the production you do out of Dye and Konerko as well. Thome changed that entire lineup around; the White Sox got rid of Rowand in CF and Thomas/Everett at DH, and replaced them with Anderson/Mackowiak and Thome; the White Sox offense scored 125 more runs.

 

Getting nothing for Maggs was a foregone conclusion. His knee problems forced him to have experimental surgery in Vienna, and had the Sox tried to get compensation for him, it would have cost somewhere around the $14 million he made that season. There's a possibility that he would have still signed with Detroit; however, had he not, the Sox would have been burdened with his $14 mill, and they would not have been able to sign Dye or Garcia to his extension. I figure you'd probably want Maggs gone knowing that.

 

Crede's not that good, and his back is f'ed up. End of story.

 

 

[sircaffey]

I still disagree. Giving up Rowand and Gio to get a player that cost more money and gives you the same production as a player you already have is a bad move. And, getting nothing for that player is a worse move.

 

This is killing the Sox - got nothing for Ordonez, nothing for Thomas and will probably get nothing for Crede. They can't keep letting their best players go for no return and they also need to sign more free agents. They need to trade some of these guys for good young talent while they can. They have so few quality young guys that can step in and produce.

 

You can't win consistently producing nothing from the farm system and not signing free agents. The talent has to come from somewhere.

 

I think that logic really only applies to SP. You can let expensive offensive players go because there is always an offensive player you can acquire/sign. Especially at those positions (CO, DH). The Sox have shown a willingness to sign a few free agent hitters. Now, had the Sox done the same logic with Buehrle and just let him walk without getting anything in return, that would have been a huge problem since the Sox rarely or never bid on free agent SP. If this is their philosophy, then trading Garland now is the move to make. But letting Ordonez, Thomas, and eventually Crede all walk really doesn't hurt that much (also considering they all had/have injury problems at the time they were let go).

[Jeremy]

The deal was made in December of 2005. Before there list comes out I think. Usually Baseball America puts it out at the end of February or early March. So as of the day of the deal, Anderson looks to be their higher ranked prospect. I am open to proof showing otherwise.

 

You'd want to go by the '06 rankings because they reflect the '05 season - which was already completed at the time of the trade - and the '05 rankings don't.

 

(and BTW, thanks for giving credit to KW for essentially stealing Gio back from Philly, while also taking Gavin Floyd, and $10 mill)

 

Freddy was a pretty valuable asset. I don't see how it's a steal unless you think Kenny knew he was injured in which case it would be a highly unethical trade.

[Chombi]

You'd want to go by the '06 rankings because they reflect the '05 season - which was already completed at the time of the trade - and the '05 rankings don't.

 

Well, I don't see the Sox wanting a sneak peak at what BA has to say. Obviously, the 06' list reflects 05' results but unless the Sox are so dumb and desperate that they asked for one of the first copies, I'd say you're right. However, judging off experience, past membership, and even this years list, it's easy to notice the date up in the corner that says February 28th. Like most years, when they wait until after Winter ball and what not to release the list. So trade in December, they'd be going off an 05' list and their own assesment of that 05' season, not a BA list that wasn't out yet and that I highly doubt they give a flying **** about.

 

[Whitewashed in '05]

You'd want to go by the '06 rankings because they reflect the '05 season - which was already completed at the time of the trade - and the '05 rankings don't.

Freddy was a pretty valuable asset. I don't see how it's a steal unless you think Kenny knew he was injured in which case it would be a highly unethical trade.

Everyone thought KW could get more for Garcia, especially with the market and his 2nd half surge, but in order to really tell how that deal works out, we will have to see how Floyd does and more importantly Gio.

[Jeremy]

Well, I don't see the Sox wanting a sneak peak at what BA has to say. Obviously, the 06' list reflects 05' results but unless the Sox are so dumb and desperate that they asked for one of the first copies, I'd say you're right. However, judging off experience, past membership, and even this years list, it's easy to notice the date up in the corner that says February 28th. Like most years, when they wait until after Winter ball and what not to release the list. So trade in December, they'd be going off an 05' list and their own assesment of that 05' season, not a BA list that wasn't out yet and that I highly doubt they give a flying **** about.

 

Right. I'm not saying that the BA list itself has any impact on the way that teams evaluate players, only that it's a good proxy for how teams evaluate players. It doesn't matter whether it was released at the time of the trade or not, it's an evaluation by scouts based on the same or similar information that a team's scouts would've used to evaluate Young at the time he was dealt.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Jeremy

[Chombi]

One thing I'd like to say...I know it's stupid logic but it's a gut feeling I have.

 

Part of me felt after that there may be other deals with them in the future. We made that midseason deal with them and it seems as though we have a good relationship.

 

They, like the Mets, seem to have the most OF prospects at their disposal. When we first dealt Young, I wanted to land Gonzalez from them. Didn't happen. Deadline, I was hoping a Garland or Buehrle deal would be struck with them to land a handful of prospects. Didnt happen.

 

Today, those feelings were brought back to thre forefront with an article I read (and posted in the Konerko Speculation thread) where a reporter suggested that they will deal for a SP because of Randy Johnsons uncertainty. They came so close and I can honestly see them trying to land a SP.

 

Regardless of our opinions on Garland, we all watched Lilly go to the NL and basically be a stud. Garland could do the same seeing that he has one of the best sinkers in baseball. Big ballpark in Zona and an expiring contract incase it doesnt work out could be something that intrigues the Dbacks.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't be suprised if they over-trade to land a SP simply out of surplus. A Quentin or Gonzalez I'd assume would be in a deal. I have seen Conor Jackson's name tossed out there but I would prefer a Gonzalez.

 

If we were able to work out a deal with them of Garland and a prospect for a Gonzalez and something would help get the taste of Young out of our mouths. If another few good years from Javy doesn't. Us coming out on top of a deal like this simply because of them having their OF filled until 2010 would be nice.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Chombi and the Fungi

[29andPoplar]

One thing I'd like to say...I know it's stupid logic but it's a gut feeling I have.

 

Part of me felt after that there may be other deals with them in the future. We made that midseason deal with them and it seems as though we have a good relationship.

 

They, like the Mets, seem to have the most OF prospects at their disposal. When we first dealt Young, I wanted to land Gonzalez from them. Didn't happen. Deadline, I was hoping a Garland or Buehrle deal would be struck with them to land a handful of prospects. Didnt happen.

 

Today, those feelings were brought back to thre forefront with an article I read (and posted in the Konerko Speculation thread) where a reporter suggested that they will deal for a SP because of Randy Johnsons uncertainty. They came so close and I can honestly see them trying to land a SP.

 

Regardless of our opinions on Garland, we all watched Lilly go to the NL and basically be a stud. Garland could do the same seeing that he has one of the best sinkers in baseball. Big ballpark in Zona and an expiring contract incase it doesnt work out could be something that intrigues the Dbacks.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't be suprised if they over-trade to land a SP simply out of surplus. A Quentin or Gonzalez I'd assume would be in a deal. I have seen Conor Jackson's name tossed out there but I would prefer a Gonzalez.

 

If we were able to work out a deal with them of Garland and a prospect for a Gonzalez and something would help get the taste of Young out of our mouths. If another few good years from Javy doesn't. Us coming out on top of a deal like this simply because of them having their OF filled until 2010 would be nice.

 

Not crazy at all, very good post in my opinion.

 

There was some talk earlier this year the White Sox having interest in Conor Jackson and the White Sox have a very good working relationship with the DBacks on several fronts. There does seem to be a matchup, on the surface anyways.