A signing out of the Dominican

[29andPoplar]

$600,000 is a lot of money. Keep in mind our first round pick, who has pitched in college baseball got $1.2 million, and we have a lot more history to work with there, not to mention he is a lefty who throws 97 mph.

 

That is a HUGE amount of money for a 16 year old kid, I just hope it works out.

 

Agree 100%, it's a lot of money.

 

The Sox are in a position now where they have to gamble like this. It is true that only a small fraction of these kids pan out. But if they really like a kid and he plays a premium position like SS, sometimes you have to take the plunge. Plus as we have been discussing here, if it's $600k, other teams must think highly of him as well.

 

Other teams with arguably deeper pockets are spending money and signing Dominicans and others. For some of the teams, if these kids don't pan out, it's "oh well, let's just go sign more". The Yankees and Mets come to mind. But ultimately, the White Sox have to compete with those teams. The Sox won't compete with the Yankees on the major league free agent front, practically never anyways. So they'll have to compete in other ways, and this is one. The Sox should be able to get middle IF prospects down there, and this is a start.

 

The key is allocating a greater % of revenues in the Dominican and other countries, and getting the right people. If a scout has worked as an agent, that's a huge plus. Agents know how to get players signed. It is one thing to scout and identify players, it is quite another to get them signed and commited to your organization. So the Sox have to be able to compete at multiple levels, financially and having a strong network and having good aggressive people. No team will sign every Dominican prospect they want, not even the Yankees. But they will absolutely need to be competitive with these teams in terms of being a preferred organization.

 

This same approach and mindset needs to occur in the Pacific Rim as well. It's a totally different process and economic plane vs. the Dominican but nonetheless there needs to be a consistent systematic approach.

Edited October 15, 2007 by 29andPoplar

[Gene Honda Civic]

$600,000 is a lot of money. Keep in mind our first round pick, who has pitched in college baseball got $1.2 million, and we have a lot more history to work with there, not to mention he is a lefty who throws 97 mph.

 

That is a HUGE amount of money for a 16 year old kid, I just hope it works out.

The bonus won't even crack the top 10 international signings this season. Edward Salcedo (represented by Boras) is reportedly asking for $3.5M, which would still be a better investment than spending the same amount of money on Darin Erstad.

[southsider2k5]

The bonus won't even crack the top 10 international signings this season. Edward Salcedo (represented by Boras) is reportedly asking for $3.5M, which would still be a better investment than spending the same amount of money on Darin Erstad.

 

I am sure I will get a "Yes, but" answer here, but I will ask this anyway...

 

This is the largest investment the Sox have made on a new player outside of the draft, correct?

[False Alarm]

I am sure I will get a "Yes, but" answer here, but I will ask this anyway...

 

This is the largest investment the Sox have made on a new player outside of the draft, correct?

i dunno, but i know carlos lee was a somewhat high-profile signing when we got him. probably not $600K, but it'd probably be more than that (or maybe around it) if we did the same deal today. he wasn't a big bonus baby a la beltre or guzman, but i know we were bidding against the yanks on him at least.

 

The bonus won't even crack the top 10 international signings this season.

i mean, maybe you're right, but it'll be one of the significant ones, won't it? last year, montero signed for $2 mil and the washington shortstop was $1.4 million, but francisco pena, who was one of the big latin american amateurs, went to the mets for $750,000, and i didn't see any deals bigger than that in a quick search.

 

-----------------------------

 

i'm glad we're making signings like this and boosting our resources down there, but i dunno if i'd want the sox giving out montero-type deals too often. i think the wide net can work well in conjunction with a shrewd big-bonus deal every season or two--how much did DLS sign for?

[BigEdWalsh]

I'm say his "we finally have some good SS prospects" quote is misguided when none of the guys mentioned are close to the prospect Valido was 2 years ago... It sells the Sox system of a couple years ago short, while simultaneously overstating what kind of SS prospects we have now.

 

I haven't forgotten that a couple of years ago Valido looked like a can't miss prospect (if there is such a thing). I was excited about the possibility that at 20, or whatever he was at the time, he looked like he was the SS of the future. Well, he sure struggled in 2006 and and seemed to have a so-so season (at best) this year. At 22, which is what I believe he is now, he's still pretty young and from the way I see it, can't be totally dismissed yet. That said, at this time I'm more excited about Miranda, Paiml and Silveiro as a whole and think it's a pretty good thing to have, from what I can tell, a surplus of pretty decent SS prospects, hopefully one of which will work out as a good major league SS. If this is overstating things, oh well, then overstated it is.

 

[Dick Allen]

$600,000 seems like a lot until you realize the combination Andy Gonzalez and Nick Masset made a lot more than that this year. It is a step in the right direction, although Borchard's bonus was the biggest in MLB history for a while IIRC. That didn't work out too well. I wonder how much of an effect it had on future picks and bonuses.

[CWSGuy406]

$600,000 seems like a lot until you realize the combination Andy Gonzalez and Nick Masset made a lot more than that this year. It is a step in the right direction, although Borchard's bonus was the biggest in MLB history for a while IIRC. That didn't work out too well. I wonder how much of an effect it had on future picks and bonuses.

 

If that's the reasoning behind the lack of signings in Latin America -- because giving a Joe Borchard a big bonus worked out great, right? -- this organization is in a lot more trouble than any of us could even begin to fathom.

 

I don't want to sound bitter, but instead of wasting $4 (?) million on Scott Podsednik and Darin Erstad, why not try to sign three or four of these guys? Instead of giving Mike Myers a lick of money, why not invest it in some overseas scouting? This signing is certainly a good thing, don't get me wrong, but the White Sox are way too late to the party.

[Chisoxfn]

While I think the White Sox have been pretty mediocre at best in there scouting outside of the US, it is necessary to point out that they probably still are in the top 2/3rds in baseball in terms of what they spend on there international operations (heck I wouldn't be shocked to see them in the top 15).

 

However, the Dodgers/Angels/Yankees/Mets/Braves are all amongst the top 7 in all of baseball in international scouting (and spending) and all of those teams also have very good baseball teams. The White Sox are nowhere near these clubs and they need to be striving to get to these clubs levels.

 

Not only do these clubs spend more money (which is one of the factors) but they also have more developed in the international systems and a better reputation (players take note of which teams are better at developing, at least top players, and they will be more likely to join those systems). The White Sox are greatly improving in this area as they have made some great hires and gotten some very well known and well respected international guru's and contacts involved (29thandPoplar has documented that well).

 

They have also made more impact signings the past couple years in guys like Anderson Gomes, Po-Yu Lin, Salvador Sanchez, and this new SS). I'm sure there could be other guys that are yet to be on our radars as well. Obviously the results on the current guys have not been great, but it is still early, and this is almost like a lottery where you know a good chunk of the guys won't pan out. PLus along with getting more toolsy guys in the system, you also have to have the coaches that can mold there abilities and help hone them into good fundemental players who will be able to succeed at the major league level.

 

Right now I can confidently say for the first time, that I fully believe the Sox farm system is heading in the right direction when it comes to international operations (Ozzie's pure rep, even though he isn't involved in this part of the baseball operations, also has a significant positive influence). We've seen progress each of the past three years and that progress has been gettting exponentially better. The next step will be to see the results of this progress start to hit the lower and mid levels of the minors and than 3-6 years down the road we should see that progress making a consistent impact on the major league squad.

 

If they can also correct their draft scouting and minor league developmental system we should see similar improvements and when you combine both (International/Drafting) you could see the Sox turn into a team that consistently has a strong system (ala the Braves/Angels/Dodgers). The Yankees are quickly looking like a team that will consistently be on this list. I should also put the Marlins on here, but to a point you should have a consistently strong system when you are constantly trading away good young pieces for top notch prospects (albeit they clearly deserve a pat on the back for identifying talented prospects and doing an outstanding job developing the guys in there system).

[witesoxfan]

Whether it belongs in here or not, Jose Martinez is another guy I think there's some hope in too. 6'5, 170, 19 years old and he put up some pretty solid numbers this year in Bristol. I guess I don't know much about him other than that, but he seems to be the kind of player to watch and see what happens.

 

 

[DBAHO]

Po - Yu Lin got about $300K for a signing bonus I think for comparisons sake right?

[NorthSideSox72]

Whether it belongs in here or not, Jose Martinez is another guy I think there's some hope in too. 6'5, 170, 19 years old and he put up some pretty solid numbers this year in Bristol. I guess I don't know much about him other than that, but he seems to be the kind of player to watch and see what happens.

6'5", 170???? Boy needs to eat.

 

[witesoxfan]

6'5", 170???? Boy needs to eat.

 

Seriously. I weigh 20 pounds less and he's got 7 inches on me. I think I seem to recall rotoworld called him a toothpick one time.

[SoxAce]

6'5", 170???? Boy needs to eat.

 

Just for comparison's sake I'm 5'8, 170. Now I know I'm fat but still

 

he's got 7 inches on me.

 

........ too easy.

[witesoxfan]

........ too easy.

 

Dude's probly a 16 incher, not a big deal for me.

[SoxAce]

Dude's probly a 16 incher

 

He's hispanic... so I highly doubt it.

[southsideirish71]

Now the question is, where does he land next year. And what is a time table on how he would be promoted through the minors. I understand that its all based on his ability to take his natural raw talent and take advantage of it. Where does a 16 year old play next year, Low A is it Rookie ball, Dominican Summer League?

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Now the question is, where does he land next year. And what is a time table on how he would be promoted through the minors. I understand that its all based on his ability to take his natural raw talent and take advantage of it. Where does a 16 year old play next year, Low A is it Rookie ball, Dominican Summer League?

I keep thinking about the legal and moral implications. I mean, lest we all forget, he is a 16 year old KID. He isn't a legal adult. I think its difficult to justify shipping him off to Bristol or Great Falls at that age. I'd think the safer thing to do would be to have him play DSL ball as a 17-year-old this coming year, maybe play some winter ball after that in the Caribbean somewhere or the Dominican League, then as an 18-year-old move him up to Bristol of GF.

 

ETA: How has this been done before? Wasn't Ozzie Guillen picked up as a 15-year old?

 

[southsideirish71]

I keep thinking about the legal and moral implications. I mean, lest we all forget, he is a 16 year old KID. He isn't a legal adult. I think its difficult to justify shipping him off to Bristol or Great Falls at that age. I'd think the safer thing to do would be to have him play DSL ball as a 17-year-old this coming year, maybe play some winter ball after that in the Caribbean somewhere or the Dominican League, then as an 18-year-old move him up to Bristol of GF.

 

ETA: How has this been done before? Wasn't Ozzie Guillen picked up as a 15-year old?

 

Well remember, kid or not this has been done before. The MLS has had a few 15 and 16 year old kids playing in their professional league making money. Hell this is how its done in international soccer leagues, sign them before their 16th birthday and put them in their academy. They start to make appearances by their late teens.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well remember, kid or not this has been done before. The MLS has had a few 15 and 16 year old kids playing in their professional league making money. Hell this is how its done in international soccer leagues, sign them before their 16th birthday and put them in their academy. They start to make appearances by their late teens.

Yeah, but again, where do they play until they are 18? Looking at Guillen for example, he was signed at 16 but didn't play on a US-based team until 1982 (when he was 18).

 

[southsideirish71]

Yeah, but again, where do they play until they are 18? Looking at Guillen for example, he was signed at 16 but didn't play on a US-based team until 1982 (when he was 18).

 

 

Felix Hernandez signed as a 16 year old. Was playing in Class A as a 17 year old.

Edited October 17, 2007 by southsideirish71

[NorthSideSox72]

Felix Hernandez signed as a 16 year old. Was playing in Class A as a 17 year old.

Yeesh.

 

Hey, if they can handle it, great. But most 16-year-olds I know have a hard time remembering where they put their school books. Seems like sending them off to a foreign country and under the lense of professional sports seems like it would take a pretty big toll on them. I am not saying they shouldn't do it necessarily - just that it seems very high risk to me.

 

[southsideirish71]

Yeesh.

 

Hey, if they can handle it, great. But most 16-year-olds I know have a hard time remembering where they put their school books. Seems like sending them off to a foreign country and under the lense of professional sports seems like it would take a pretty big toll on them. I am not saying they shouldn't do it necessarily - just that it seems very high risk to me.

 

 

Well Miguel Cabrera handled it as well, he had a similar aggressive move up through the system. The reason I posed this, is when I have seen the true impact Latin players there we signed as 16 year old and were aggressively put through the system. I just wanted to see what people thought would be a timeline. For me this is uncharted territory. I like the fact that we picked up a toolsy 16 year old. This is a shift in our talent acquisition that has me pretty damn happy. This is the way we should start to go. I am pretty happy with this move so far.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Well Miguel Cabrera handled it as well, he had a similar aggressive move up through the system. The reason I posed this, is when I have seen the true impact Latin players there we signed as 16 year old and were aggressively put through the system. I just wanted to see what people thought would be a timeline. For me this is uncharted territory. I like the fact that we picked up a toolsy 16 year old. This is a shift in our talent acquisition that has me pretty damn happy. This is the way we should start to go. I am pretty happy with this move so far.

Agreed. It just got me thinking of the consequences a bit.

 

[Gene Honda Civic]

the best international signings usally end up in rookie to low-A ball. Last year, Triunfel, Villalona, and Beltre to name a few were signed as 16 year olds from the dominican and all played in the states. Triunfel (M's) was pused to high-A, which is MO of the M's. They like to push their prospects. He was ranked 6th best prospect in both the Midwest and California leagues. Villalona was named the top prospect in the AZL league, and got a taste of full season ball to end the year. Beltre struggled in rookie ball, was traded for Eric Gagne, tore up a new rookie league of the same level (named #2 prospect in that league) and got a cup of coffee in full-season ball.

 

For comparisons sake, Villalona signed for 2.1M, Triunfel 1.3M, and Beltre for 600K.