Sox Prospects on clock

[Gregory Pratt]

You laughed at Mark Redman, too.

[Heads22]

You laughed at Mark Redman, too.

 

Probably.

[gosox41]

Great stuff as usual 29, but you're wasting your time with Bob.

 

Notice how many questions he is asking AFTER you posted all the information, and that was AFTER he made a solid, concrete viewpoint of how KW and co. run their farm. He, along with others, have had this veiwpoint for years and apparently he won't be satisfied until one of KW's teams win the world series with nothing but homegrown Sox players, have one of the smallest payrolls in the league, and sweep the A's in the ALCS (a 3 game sweep won't impress him.)

 

 

Not true. But what will satisfy me is not seeing a team with a $100 million payroll (the highest in their division by a lot) finish a whopping 72-90. Sure the ML team had some injuries, but it's not like they were going to win 95 games this year with everyone healthy.

 

But what the season showed are the glaring weaknesses in the farm system. Outside of Fields, who of the young players that KW drafted and developed (ie not traded for like Richar) that you see that are going to help this team get to the playoffs in 2008? Maybe Ehren Wassermann, but he wasn't even on KW's radar until things went really south. Unless you're an avid follower of the minor league system you probably never heard of this guy. The Sox thought so highly of him they didn't even conisder him a candidate for the bullpen in spring training. It wasn't until the bull pen blew up and yet more minor leaguers sucked, that they brought him up. I hope he continues his success, so now we're up to 2 players.

 

Say whatever you want about me, but the Sox farm system is a major problem. And for a GM who preaches speed, defense, and \ grinderball and also hopes to emulate the Atlanta Braves, I would say so far he's done the exact oppsoite.

 

maybe the changes KW is making now will help. He can't get much worse when it comes to the Farm System.

 

 

 

Bob

[gosox41]

On the Carlos Vasquez acquisition, where did you hear it was to keep Ozzie happy? Please tell me you didn't hear that from message board posters from WSI who infer Guillen is a racist or prejudiced (there is a great thread now in the roadhouse over there where a guy raises the issue based on his own opinions and gets smacked down with facts). If you really believe Ken Williams and Rick Hahn would go out and acquire a player based on his nationality just to keep Guillen happy, then you don't know those two men's motives at all.

 

Is Ozzie familiar with what's going on in the organization? It's too broad brushed of a question to answer. Just like any big league manager, I'm sure he's more familiar with some things than others.

 

Do they need to do a better job sourcing and signing talent? Of course they do. Every team needs to do better, no team is perfect. Some are better than others, and it is a constant cycle of examing what's being done and doing the right things to improve.

 

 

I remember references made about it in one of the newspapers.

 

I will try to do more research in teh Sox farm system and apprecaite your insight. It's more useful that santo=dorf's. But the minor league system needed to be addressed years ago. Santo-dorf even said I've been talking about this for years, and he's right. And it's because the Sox farm system has been npt very good as of late.

 

 

 

Bob

[29andPoplar]

But what the season showed are the glaring weaknesses in the farm system. Outside of Fields, who of the young players that KW drafted and developed (ie not traded for like Richar) that you see that are going to help this team get to the playoffs in 2008? Maybe Ehren Wassermann, but he wasn't even on KW's radar until things went really south. Unless you're an avid follower of the minor league system you probably never heard of this guy. The Sox thought so highly of him they didn't even conisder him a candidate for the bullpen in spring training. It wasn't until the bull pen blew up and yet more minor leaguers sucked, that they brought him up. I hope he continues his success, so now we're up to 2 players.

 

Williams has had a philosophy of trading prospects for proven players. The anti Schueler if you will.

 

If prospects only count for you if they are drafted by the Sox and come up through the system and play for the Sox, well, you are only looking at a portion of the equation.

 

Now you can evaluate which prospects he traded and make judgements there on another level, no question. However, a fairer way to evaluate is seeing if any players they drafted make the big leagues, or were they at least turned into an asset.

 

Anthony Webster, Royce Ring, Jeremy Reed, Josh Rupe, Chris Young, Tyler Lumsden, Aaron Cunningham, Gio Gonzalez were all moved for big leaguers. Is that part of your evaluation process, or no? Does that count?

Guys like Brandon McCarthy and Boone Logan fit somewhere in here too.

 

Since 2003, a few of the Sox top brass have been unhappy with the drafting, in retrospect. That's why they launched the head scouting guy.

 

If after a 90 loss season they were sitting around saying "all is well", there is a problem with that. They are making changes behind the scenes, a few of which I pointed out.

 

Philosophically, their approach has been to trade prospects for major league help. Arguably, that approach worked. But that approach doesn't work forever, hence some of the changes we are seeing.

[witesoxfan]

Who's more valuable? I don't know for sure. But Rivera is definitely better at his job than Lee at his.

 

Lee is more valuable. Rivera played in 5% of every inning the Yankees had, while Lee played in 93% of the Astros.

 

If you are going to bring up the "better at the job" topic, Daryle Ward was better at his job than Carlos Lee; I do not see him as more valuable. Does the comparison between #1 pinch hitter and best bat off the bench not compare to the closer role?

[Gregory Pratt]

Lee is more valuable. Rivera played in 5% of every inning the Yankees had, while Lee played in 93% of the Astros.

 

If you are going to bring up the "better at the job" topic, Daryle Ward was better at his job than Carlos Lee; I do not see him as more valuable. Does the comparison between #1 pinch hitter and best bat off the bench not compare to the closer role?

 

No, it doesn't.

 

Rivera > Lee. It's apples to oranges, but Rivera is more important to a ballclub than Carlos Lee.

[The Beast]

Just looking at some names; I kind of just put them in different groups.

 

Group A:

Jack Egbert, Donny Lucy, Ryan Sweeney, Lance Broadway, Gavin Floyd, Heath Phillips, Adam Russell

 

Group B:

Robert Valido, Dewon Day, Brian Anderson, David Aardsma, Ryan Bukvich, Nick Masset, Andrew Sisco

 

I'm not much for minor leagues, but out of these guys, who do we expect to be back on (or in contention for) the White Sox 25-man roster? Are we still under the belief that Richar will start next year? What are your guys' thoughts on the bullpen next year? What kind of moves do you expect Williams to do this off-season?

 

I was sort of out of the loop at the end of the year (I moved to Charleston, IL for college at EIU) so if someone could fill me in on some of our September callups, it would be great.

 

P.S.-How do I change my name from Beastly to something else? It's a bit old, and I'm not the moron I once was.

[NorthSideSox72]

Just looking at some names; I kind of just put them in different groups.

 

Group A:

Jack Egbert, Donny Lucy, Ryan Sweeney, Lance Broadway, Gavin Floyd, Heath Phillips, Adam Russell

 

Group B:

Robert Valido, Dewon Day, Brian Anderson, David Aardsma, Ryan Bukvich, Nick Masset, Andrew Sisco

 

I'm not much for minor leagues, but out of these guys, who do we expect to be back on (or in contention for) the White Sox 25-man roster? Are we still under the belief that Richar will start next year? What are your guys' thoughts on the bullpen next year? What kind of moves do you expect Williams to do this off-season?

 

I was sort of out of the loop at the end of the year (I moved to Charleston, IL for college at EIU) so if someone could fill me in on some of our September callups, it would be great.

 

P.S.-How do I change my name from Beastly to something else? It's a bit old, and I'm not the moron I once was.

Regarding the various prospects and others you listed, I'd advice checking out the FutureSox forum. Lots of good info in there, and discussions are always welcome. There are AAP (Adopt-a-Prospect) pages for some of them as well, to give you background.

 

About your name... try the "How Does That Work?" forum.

 

[Balta1701]

I'm not much for minor leagues, but out of these guys, who do we expect to be back on (or in contention for) the White Sox 25-man roster? Are we still under the belief that Richar will start next year? What are your guys' thoughts on the bullpen next year? What kind of moves do you expect Williams to do this off-season?

I think it's 95% sure that Richar will be the starter next year. He may wind up with a platoon partner if we find someone who hits from the opposite side, although I think that's a mistake (and I think we can use Pablo as his backup if Pablo is alive).

 

Heath Phillips is out of options next year, and so he either is traded, released, or makes the 25 man. I haven't a clue what the result will be.

 

Based on people's performances this year and contracts, if you look for a 6 man bullpen, I think 5 of those roles are filled. Jenks clearly, Thornton and MMac are under contract, and Logan and Wasserman did their jobs well enough this year to earn a role next year. For slot 6, and any potential slot 7, I'd say right now it's entirely a crapshoot. It might not be the worst idea in the world to spend some money on that spot, even if all you can get is Linebrink, just to put one veteran in the bullpen. Otherwise, it's going to come down to who earns it out of Day, Broadway, Aardsma, Masset, etc.

 

Masset is, I believe, also out of options next year, so same for him as for phillips.

 

If a starter is moved this winter, and at least one should be, I have no inside info, but if you put me in that chair, Gavin Floyd starts the season as our #5 starter next year. He is also out of options, but he pitched well enough this year, esp. down the stretch, to earn a shot next year.

 

Lucy: Beats me. Probably AAA next year with him. We still have 2 catchers under contract.

 

Sweeney and Anderson I lump together as "Depends on a lot". Right now, our OF next year is Fields, Owens, Dye. It is also possible though that we'll spend some money on a FA OF this offseason. IF that happens, then Owens becomes OF #4, and Anderson and Sweeney both are blocked even more. Neither one of them can possibly be considered a starting option next April. Either/both of them have to have a good start at Charlotte before we even consider a callup. If Crede were to be moved midseason or get hurt again, or Dye were to go on the DL, then either one of them could be an option in the OF if they perform well. However, many people have said that the administration has completely turned on Anderson, and right now nothing he could do would earn him a callup next year, so it's entirley possible he will be moved soon.

 

Broadway may have a shot at a bullpen slot, but it's likely he'll return to Charlotte for one more year.

 

IMO, KW's biggest job this offseason is finding a shortstop. I am a large fan of using Jon Garland as the trading chip to fill that role.

[Gregory Pratt]

Jack Egbert -- will be exposed, I think, once he gets to better competition. I think he's a fluke and he has a lot to prove.

Donny Lucy -- Career backup at best. He's lousy with the bat, as was shown when he came up, and needs to do a lot of work. Good defender, though.

Ryan Sweeney -- needs steroids. Only partially kidding. He took a huge step back this year. Needs to learn how to turn on the fastball. Hit pitches hard.

Lance Broadway -- I think he's crap. He definitely has a lot to prove. He did really good in September, especially in his spot-start, but his stuff isn't all that hot and he isn't a safe bet to do much, IMO. Could be a surprise, I guess.

Gavin Floyd -- Probable fifth starter, unless he manages to once AGAIN lose a job that's gift-wrapped for him. I don't think he's any good.

Heath Phillips -- Sucks.

Adam Russell -- Fastball disappeared, or Slowed, after leaving ST. Reliever at best.

 

Robert Valido -- Crap.

Dewon Day -- Crap.

Brian Anderson -- Crap. With injuries.

David Aardsma -- Still got good stuff, but he's got some issues with control. People say it's in his head.

Ryan Bukvich -- crap.

Nick Masset -- I think he sucks. Lots of people think he's got a better chance of being a good starter. All I know is he's never put up consistently good numbers and it's in fact the other way around.

Andrew Sisco -- knock on him is that he's lazy; he's also got ridiculously bad control. He's got potential, but he's getting old. It'll be awhile before he is "restored" to quality. He's just not good now. he's being made a starter, though.

[NorthSideSox72]

Beastly, you will see a bunch of posts like this one...

 

Jack Egbert -- will be exposed, I think, once he gets to better competition. I think he's a fluke and he has a lot to prove.

Donny Lucy -- Career backup at best. He's lousy with the bat, as was shown when he came up, and needs to do a lot of work. Good defender, though.

Ryan Sweeney -- needs steroids. Only partially kidding. He took a huge step back this year. Needs to learn how to turn on the fastball. Hit pitches hard.

Lance Broadway -- I think he's crap. He definitely has a lot to prove. He did really good in September, especially in his spot-start, but his stuff isn't all that hot and he isn't a safe bet to do much, IMO. Could be a surprise, I guess.

Gavin Floyd -- Probable fifth starter, unless he manages to once AGAIN lose a job that's gift-wrapped for him. I don't think he's any good.

Heath Phillips -- Sucks.

Adam Russell -- Fastball disappeared, or Slowed, after leaving ST. Reliever at best.

 

Robert Valido -- Crap.

Dewon Day -- Crap.

Brian Anderson -- Crap. With injuries.

David Aardsma -- Still got good stuff, but he's got some issues with control. People say it's in his head.

Ryan Bukvich -- crap.

Nick Masset -- I think he sucks. Lots of people think he's got a better chance of being a good starter. All I know is he's never put up consistently good numbers and it's in fact the other way around.

Andrew Sisco -- knock on him is that he's lazy; he's also got ridiculously bad control. He's got potential, but he's getting old. It'll be awhile before he is "restored" to quality. He's just not good now. he's being made a starter, though.

 

... that are so full of unfounded judgements, positive AND negative, that its pointless to read much into them. Some people just like to rah-rah the team no matter what, and others find it easy to say everyone stinks.

 

I'd suggest you spend some time reading the AAP pages and the FutureSox forum, and looking at the stats on MILB.com, and searching the net for some scouting info, if you really want some good information. There are also other sides like Cheat's blog that are really great for getting solid info on prospects. Check all of that out and judge for yourself.

 

[kapkomet]

Jack Egbert -- will be exposed, I think, once he gets to better competition. I think he's a fluke and he has a lot to prove.

Donny Lucy -- Career backup at best. He's lousy with the bat, as was shown when he came up, and needs to do a lot of work. Good defender, though.

Ryan Sweeney -- needs steroids. Only partially kidding. He took a huge step back this year. Needs to learn how to turn on the fastball. Hit pitches hard.

Lance Broadway -- I think he's crap. He definitely has a lot to prove. He did really good in September, especially in his spot-start, but his stuff isn't all that hot and he isn't a safe bet to do much, IMO. Could be a surprise, I guess.

Gavin Floyd -- Probable fifth starter, unless he manages to once AGAIN lose a job that's gift-wrapped for him. I don't think he's any good.

Heath Phillips -- Sucks.

Adam Russell -- Fastball disappeared, or Slowed, after leaving ST. Reliever at best.

 

Robert Valido -- Crap.

Dewon Day -- Crap.

Brian Anderson -- Crap. With injuries.

David Aardsma -- Still got good stuff, but he's got some issues with control. People say it's in his head.

Ryan Bukvich -- crap.

Nick Masset -- I think he sucks. Lots of people think he's got a better chance of being a good starter. All I know is he's never put up consistently good numbers and it's in fact the other way around.

Andrew Sisco -- knock on him is that he's lazy; he's also got ridiculously bad control. He's got potential, but he's getting old. It'll be awhile before he is "restored" to quality. He's just not good now. he's being made a starter, though.

 

Someone needs to blow some sunshine up your ass.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

Which of my criticisms is unfounded?

[kapkomet]

Which of my criticisms is unfounded?

Everyone sucks.

 

SUCKS

SUCKS

SUCKITY

SUCKS

SUCKITY

SUCKITY

SUCK

SUCK.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

The guys who I said "Suck" or "Crap" to, unequivocally, have no legitimate major league future as anything resembling productive and successful players.

[NorthSideSox72]

Which of my criticisms is unfounded?

Anyone can write "crap" next to some player's name. Do you think your response has done anything at all to answer the poster's questions?

 

[Chombi]

Jack Egbert -- will be exposed, I think, once he gets to better competition. I think he's a fluke and he has a lot to prove.

Donny Lucy -- Career backup at best. He's lousy with the bat, as was shown when he came up, and needs to do a lot of work. Good defender, though.

Ryan Sweeney -- needs steroids. Only partially kidding. He took a huge step back this year. Needs to learn how to turn on the fastball. Hit pitches hard.

Lance Broadway -- I think he's crap. He definitely has a lot to prove. He did really good in September, especially in his spot-start, but his stuff isn't all that hot and he isn't a safe bet to do much, IMO. Could be a surprise, I guess.

Gavin Floyd -- Probable fifth starter, unless he manages to once AGAIN lose a job that's gift-wrapped for him. I don't think he's any good.

Heath Phillips -- Sucks.

Adam Russell -- Fastball disappeared, or Slowed, after leaving ST. Reliever at best.

 

Robert Valido -- Crap.

Dewon Day -- Crap.

Brian Anderson -- Crap. With injuries.

David Aardsma -- Still got good stuff, but he's got some issues with control. People say it's in his head.

Ryan Bukvich -- crap.

Nick Masset -- I think he sucks. Lots of people think he's got a better chance of being a good starter. All I know is he's never put up consistently good numbers and it's in fact the other way around.

Andrew Sisco -- knock on him is that he's lazy; he's also got ridiculously bad control. He's got potential, but he's getting old. It'll be awhile before he is "restored" to quality. He's just not good now. he's being made a starter, though.

 

 

I loved that whole assesment. Made me laugh.

 

I agree about Egbert and Broadway btw. I've been pro-trade for both of them. Egbert is someone who I want to see go sooner because I think his stock is hotter. Where Broadway, his stock is still there just hasn't shot up like we'd hoped. Also, I want to have a Sox Jersey that says "Broadway" on the back.

 

Everything else I pretty much agree with.

 

One thing. I know this may not belong here. It has probably been suggested on this board but I am still somewhat new..

 

Anyone think Gavin Floyd can become Gavin Floyd if we change his entire mechanics. To me, his velocity is down and he isn't the same guy because he doesn't hide the ball at all. It's like Keith Foulke, no "arm into your back pocket" motion. It just goes straight out/up and thats it.

 

To me, that is his only problem. The mental thing is confidence. If I got bombed the way he has been the last few years, I'd be a headcase too.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Chombi and the Fungi

[Gregory Pratt]

Anyone can write "crap" next to some player's name. Do you think your response has done anything at all to answer the poster's questions?

 

he wants to know what we have. In response to a lot of these guys, it's crap.

[witesoxfan]

No, it doesn't.

 

Rivera > Lee. It's apples to oranges, but Rivera is more important to a ballclub than Carlos Lee.

 

I'll simply disagree. A guy who plays 162 games for the entire game has more value to me than a guy who averages just over one inning at a time, even if he is the GOAT at doing his job.

 

How hard is it to find a closer that can put up a 1.10 WHIP, a 3.00 ERA, and a 9 K/9? There were like 15 that did that this year, and there are many other relievers throughout the league who are capable of such a line. How hard is it to find a LFer that can put up a .882 OPS almost year in and year out? Considering he was 30th in OPS in the majors, and 5th in OPS among MLB LFers, I'd say quite a bit harder.

 

 

[BearSox]

Hey Greg, is there anyone who isn't "crap" according to you? I'm sure when Buehrle was coming up you labeled him as crap.

 

Egbert might not have dominate stuff, but he has yet to fail. I can understand saying this season was a fluke if he previously was bad, but he has been good, if not great, his entire minor league career. Broadway, for a crappy pitcher, had some good movement and showed some good stuff in his cup of coffee this season. I think you are a little full of yourself if you think there is no shot at either of these guys, or the other ones you listed, at having no shot at succeeding.

 

Hey, I bet according to you JoJo Reyes is going to be an ace and Joey Devine will be a dominate set up guy, because after all, Johnny S. did draft them!

 

Seriously though, I got no problem if you think the prospects suck, but basically saying there is no chance at any of them every becoming productive players just plain pisses me off.

Edited October 18, 2007 by BearSox

[gosox41]

Williams has had a philosophy of trading prospects for proven players. The anti Schueler if you will.

 

If prospects only count for you if they are drafted by the Sox and come up through the system and play for the Sox, well, you are only looking at a portion of the equation.

 

Now you can evaluate which prospects he traded and make judgements there on another level, no question. However, a fairer way to evaluate is seeing if any players they drafted make the big leagues, or were they at least turned into an asset.

 

Anthony Webster, Royce Ring, Jeremy Reed, Josh Rupe, Chris Young, Tyler Lumsden, Aaron Cunningham, Gio Gonzalez were all moved for big leaguers. Is that part of your evaluation process, or no? Does that count?

Guys like Brandon McCarthy and Boone Logan fit somewhere in here too.

 

Since 2003, a few of the Sox top brass have been unhappy with the drafting, in retrospect. That's why they launched the head scouting guy.

 

If after a 90 loss season they were sitting around saying "all is well", there is a problem with that. They are making changes behind the scenes, a few of which I pointed out.

 

Philosophically, their approach has been to trade prospects for major league help. Arguably, that approach worked. But that approach doesn't work forever, hence some of the changes we are seeing.

 

 

I'm fine with trading prospects for major league help. In the Sox case, I hope that they do taht more often. Because of the guys you mentioned above, only Chris Young has amounted to anything. It's early for Cunningham and Gonzalez, but what has Webster, Ring, & Reed done to be excited about? Don't even get me on the Ring fiasco in the 2002 draft I've hear various stories of how that got screwed up.

 

And it's about time the Sox make some changes in the farm system. I'm surprised they waited since 2003 if as you say that's when they were first unhappy.

 

So I do realize what the Sox have traded away. Who knows how McCarthy will be versus Danks. OR will people ever get over losing Chris Young. Hopefully KW has a few more of these deals of trading minor leaguers for major leaguers. The way our farm system is right now, I'm all for it.

 

 

Bob