Barry Rozner on ARod / White Sox

[WCSox]

Just curious... how much effect do people think it has on A-Rod's situation that Torre is leaving?

 

It could have a lot, given that the vast majority of Torre's current and former players really like him. What may have even more of an impact is Steinbrenner stepping down and his sons taking over the day-to-day operations.

 

[Dick Allen]

Uh, yeah, because a failure is much better than a liability. Good one!

Since you're incapable of understanding them, I don't bother anymore.

I am, but you can't hit 30 and 170 points below the freaking Mendoza line in the playoffs in consecutive years if you're making $20+ million a year. Some people have a difficult time performing in pressure situations. Is A-Rod one of those people? I'm not sure at this point and I wouldn't want to spend $300 million to find out.

He played in NY and will win another MVP this season. Frank Thomas, the guy everyone says is the best hitter in White Sox history has 2 playoff series with 0 hits. Konerko got 0 hits in 2000. Barry Bonds struggled in the playoffs. The burden ARod has had with size of his contract, and how he's performed speak volumes. If it was the 7th game of the WS and the White Sox were down a run with the bases loaded and 2 out in the bottom of the ninth inning, I would personally love to have ARod batting. Derek Jeter is known as a huge clutch guy, even he struggled this post season batting .176. In 2001 Jeter hit .118 in the ALCS and .148 in the WS. Even Mr. October, Reggie Jackson is only about a .220 hitter in post season play. One thing is for sure, ARod, if the rest of the roster isn't compromised due to his salary, would certainly help you make the playoffs.

[Gregory Pratt]

Who was the last Borass client to take less money for anything?

 

Actually, he cited quite a few of them recently when he said, "It's not all about the money" re: Alex Rodriguez. One of them was Andruw Jones, although he personally negotiated his own extension with Atlanta and told Boras later that he works for Jones, not the other way around. Boras other citations: "When Greg Maddux went to Atlanta, he did not take the largest deal. Charles Johnson did not take the largest deal. Kevin Brown did not take the largest deal. Bernie Williams did not take the largest deal when he stayed in New York," he says. "We pride ourselves with our clients making informed decisions. That is our job."

 

Of course, Maddux just didn't want to leave the NL and was wooed by Cox/Schuerholz/Leo/the situation in Atlanta at the time; I don't know the other guys' circumstances, but I know that Bernie Williams loves NY, period, and probably refuses to go elsewhere against all of Boras' wishes.

 

He's so slimey and dishonest.

[Dick Allen]

Paul Konerko doesn't make $25 million a year. I don't know about you, but I expect Boston-era Manny Ramirez playoff numbers for $200+ million guaranteed.

 

If Konerko and ARod were teammates, their playoff pay would be the same. The point I was making is the sample sizes are too small to base a guy as someone who can't handle it on 1 or 2 postseasons, especially if he had already put up pretty decent numbers under the same circumstances 3 or 4 other times.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

He played in NY and will win another MVP this season. Frank Thomas, the guy everyone says is the best hitter in White Sox history has 2 playoff series with 0 hits. Konerko got 0 hits in 2000. Barry Bonds struggled in the playoffs. The burden ARod has had with size of his contract, and how he's performed speak volumes. If it was the 7th game of the WS and the White Sox were down a run with the bases loaded and 2 out in the bottom of the ninth inning, I would personally love to have ARod batting. Derek Jeter is known as a huge clutch guy, even he struggled this post season batting .176. In 2001 Jeter hit .118 in the ALCS and .148 in the WS. Even Mr. October, Reggie Jackson is only about a .220 hitter in post season play. One thing is for sure, ARod, if the rest of the roster isn't compromised due to his salary, would certainly help you make the playoffs.

 

Liabilities!

 

Haven't you heard -- Walter Payton never scored a touchdown in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning has only won one Super Bowl -- and he had to go up against Rex Grossman to do it! Notice the similarities between Payton and Peyton? And those guys you cite? They're all liabilities!

[Dick Allen]

Liabilities!

 

Haven't you heard -- Walter Payton never scored a touchdown in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning has only won one Super Bowl -- and he had to go up against Rex Grossman to do it! Notice the similarities between Payton and Peyton? And those guys you cite? They're all liabilities!

How many times did Elway lose the Super Bowl. He couldn't handle the pressure. There's no doubt ARod had a couple of horrible postseasons. But to even think he can't handle pressure is absurd. For 7 seasons the guy has had more pressure on him than anyone, and he will have 3 MVPs? Not bad.

[Gregory Pratt]

How many times did Elway lose the Super Bowl. He couldn't handle the pressure. There's no doubt ARod had a couple of horrible postseasons. But to even think he can't handle pressure is absurd. For 7 seasons the guy has had more pressure on him than anyone, and he will have 3 MVPs? Not bad.

 

Clearly he turns it all off once the calendar turns. Don't you know that?

[witesoxfan]

Question for everyone...do you consider Barry Bonds to be a liability in the playoffs?

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Question for everyone...do you consider Barry Bonds to be a liability in the playoffs?

Obviously not if he is healthy. His struggles were notorious his first 4 or 5 playoff appearances, although he did draw some walks. The year they went to the WS he hit a ton of homers IIRC. I think he would be walked a ton if he ever is in the playoffs again.

[witesoxfan]

Obviously not if he is healthy. His struggles were notorious his first 4 or 5 playoff appearances, although he did draw some walks. The year they went to the WS he hit a ton of homers IIRC. I think he would be walked a ton if he ever is in the playoffs again.

 

That is exactly it. Up until 2002, the year he put up like a 1.550 OPS with 8 jacks, he had a career OPS of like .618 in 140 PA's or so. And then in 2003, which was his last year in the playoffs, he walked 8 times - 6 intentionally - in 18 plate appearances.

 

So if you really think about it, ARod has had more good postseasons than Bonds; yet ARod is a choker?

[Gregory Pratt]

How many rings do they have?

 

Advantage: Timo.

[WilliamTell]

How many rings do they have?

 

Advantage: Timo.

 

hell Timo has as many World Series appearances as they have.

[Gregory Pratt]

hell Timo has as many World Series appearances as they have.

 

Timo good.

 

Just curious... how much effect do people think it has on A-Rod's situation that Torre is leaving?

 

None. Boras and his clients don't give a s*** with very rare exceptions, and Rodriguez ain't one of them.

[spiderman]

There really isn't much substance in that article. Its kind of disappointing from Rozner. That has more a Kotex-boy feel to it, with a lot of "should"'s and not a lot of real depth. Hopefully he knows something, but it sure didn't seem like it.

 

You are correct - just pure speculation with no evidence of this being correct.

 

[WCSox]

If Konerko and ARod were teammates, their playoff pay would be the same.

 

Um, well, players aren't payed per playoff game. And the last time that I checked, A-Rod's current contract is about five times that of Konerko's, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

 

The point I was making is the sample sizes are too small to base a guy as someone who can't handle it on 1 or 2 postseasons, especially if he had already put up pretty decent numbers under the same circumstances 3 or 4 other times.

 

(1) Before the strawman arguments get out of hand, my point was that A-Rod was a "liability" in the '05 and '06 post-seasons only. That wasn't meant as a general statement.

 

(2) The Yankees didn't need A-Rod to make the playoffs in 2005 or 2006. He was supposed to put them over the hump (or at least help them get past the ALDS) and he failed to deliver. I'm not saying that he's supposed to hit .400 and drive in three or four runs each game, but 30 and 130 points below the Mendoza line in consecutive playoff series completely is unacceptable for ANY marquee player, especially the supposed "best player in the game."

 

(3) I understand what you're saying with the "small sample size" comment, but you have to understand that elite pro athletes (especially those that make $25 million/year) are EXPECTED to deliver in the "small sample size" known as the playoffs. Not every elite player is expected to play off-the-charts well in every playoff series, but you have to deliver at least decent results in the big games. Since being traded to the Yankees, A-Rod has hit over .270 in ONE of five playoff series... and he's hit below .135 in TWO of them. And all four of those teams would've made the playoffs without him. I give him credit for having some good post-seasons in Seattle where he was in Griffey and Edgar's shadows, but he wasn't the same after signing that blockbuster contract and playing in the high-stress environment of the Bronx. Those two factors raised expectations significantly and I'm not sure that he was able to deal with the pressure effectively. That doesn't mean that he couldn't have post-season success in Chicago but, again, one has to wonder if he's going to have trouble again being "The Man" and delivering in the post-season after his next $200+ million contract.

Edited October 20, 2007 by WCSox

[Gregory Pratt]

Tell me about Dave Winfield, Mr. Steinbrenner.

[CWSGuy406]

Did Sammy Sosa make the Rangers a ton of money when he hit #600?

 

As for 2012, A-Rod will be 37 at that point. If he's not on the juice, what's to stop him from a Thome-like injury-induced decline? How many power-hitters can even pull off a full season at that age? Are Thome or Frank worth $30 million/year at this point?

 

I don't care to comment on whether I'd give A-Rod 10/$300, but you didn't seriously just compare Sosa hitting #600 to A-Rod, did you? And then Jim Thome and Frank Thomas to A-Rod? Jesus...

 

We're talking about one of the top ten players to ever grace the game. I'm usually the last one to say "forget about money, just get him", but again -- this is a guy who may go down as the best player of our generation. If JR is willing to go toe-to-toe with any owner w/r/t A-Rod, God bless him -- I'll be all the happier for it. This wouldn't be the same as the Cubs splurging on Soriano -- far from it.

 

And you're right to say we'd be getting A-Rod's worst years as a player, but A-Rod's worst years will still be better than 90% of MLB players' best years, so...

Edited October 20, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[Vance Law]

Look, A-Rod was the difference between a Yankees team in the playoffs and a Yankees team that didn't make the playoffs.

 

Wasn't Posada also the difference between playoffs and not (look at yer average catcher vs. Jorge), wasn't Wang also, by himself the difference between playoffs and not.

 

[GoodAsGould]

Wasn't Posada also the difference between playoffs and not (look at yer average catcher vs. Jorge), wasn't Wang also, by himself the difference between playoffs and not.

 

Different is the amount of a difference each player was.... A-Rod was without a doubt the best offensive player in the entire mlb this season. Wang and Posada had good years both, A-Rod had a spectacular year.

[Dick Allen]

Um, well, players aren't payed per playoff game. And the last time that I checked, A-Rod's current contract is about five times that of Konerko's, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

(1) Before the strawman arguments get out of hand, my point was that A-Rod was a "liability" in the '05 and '06 post-seasons only. That wasn't meant as a general statement.

 

(2) The Yankees didn't need A-Rod to make the playoffs in 2005 or 2006. He was supposed to put them over the hump (or at least help them get past the ALDS) and he failed to deliver. I'm not saying that he's supposed to hit .400 and drive in three or four runs each game, but 30 and 130 points below the Mendoza line in consecutive playoff series completely is unacceptable for ANY marquee player, especially the supposed "best player in the game."

 

(3) I understand what you're saying with the "small sample size" comment, but you have to understand that elite pro athletes (especially those that make $25 million/year) are EXPECTED to deliver in the "small sample size" known as the playoffs. Not every elite player is expected to play off-the-charts well in every playoff series, but you have to deliver at least decent results in the big games. Since being traded to the Yankees, A-Rod has hit over .270 in ONE of five playoff series... and he's hit below .135 in TWO of them. And all four of those teams would've made the playoffs without him. I give him credit for having some good post-seasons in Seattle where he was in Griffey and Edgar's shadows, but he wasn't the same after signing that blockbuster contract and playing in the high-stress environment of the Bronx. Those two factors raised expectations significantly and I'm not sure that he was able to deal with the pressure effectively. That doesn't mean that he couldn't have post-season success in Chicago but, again, one has to wonder if he's going to have trouble again being "The Man" and delivering in the post-season after his next $200+ million contract.

 

Um well, players do get paid for the playoffs. They get paid from a pool of money which gets divided into shares. The players vote who gets what kind of share. Timo and Konerko each got paid exactly the same for the 2005 playoffs. They even each get paid a little more for winning the division. Obviously, ARod would be expected to perform well, but sometimes it just doesn't happen. You take a couple of years of ARod in the playoffs and use those as gospel. But he has hit .280 in the postseason. If he's so awful and a choker, the guy is playing on the biggest stage, a stage where that the ace of the 2005 world champions couldn't handle, winning 2 MVPs with them, under the scrutiny of the largest contract by far of all time, and he plays well enough to opt out and get an even bigger deal. He's no choker. Everyone has tough postseasons. Even Babe Ruth hit .118 in the 1922 WS. Mickey Mantle hit below .200 3 WS in a row. You cherry-picked the .270 because he hit .267 this year, correct? He's a .280 career playoff hitter. If a team had the money to pay him and not ruin the rest of their team, it would be crazy to chose not to add him based on a couple of postseason series.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Dick Allen

[Rowand44]

I have no idea how much money ARod would bring in just by himself but if JR thinks he's worth whatever he gets then so be it. There's no denying that Alex would help this team big time and if we were able to sign him and still have some payroll flexibility then please please do it. Now honestly, I don't think there is a chance in hell that something like this happens but I'd love for it to.

[DBAHO]

I have no idea how much money ARod would bring in just by himself but if JR thinks he's worth whatever he gets then so be it. There's no denying that Alex would help this team big time and if we were able to sign him and still have some payroll flexibility then please please do it. Now honestly, I don't think there is a chance in hell that something like this happens but I'd love for it to.

The main issue I think with all of this, if the Sox go out and sign A-Rod to a $25-$30M per season deal this off-season, are the Sox going to be able to fill other needs? Are they going to be able to bring in 2, 3 new guys for the pen? Are we going to be able to upgrade at one of the OF spots?

 

Because as good of a player as A-Rod is, you fill those needs with some good players, and this team can easily make the playoffs next season.

[Gregory Pratt]

Um well, players do get paid for the playoffs. They get paid from a pool of money which gets divided into shares. The players vote who gets what kind of share. Timo and Konerko each got paid exactly the same for the 2005 playoffs. They even each get paid a little more for winning the division. Obviously, ARod would be expected to perform well, but sometimes it just doesn't happen. You take a couple of years of ARod in the playoffs and use those as gospel. But he has hit .280 in the postseason. If he's so awful and a choker, the guy is playing on the biggest stage, a stage where that the ace of the 2005 world champions couldn't handle, winning 2 MVPs with them, under the scrutiny of the largest contract by far of all time, and he plays well enough to opt out and get an even bigger deal. He's no choker. Everyone has tough postseasons. Even Babe Ruth hit .118 in the 1922 WS. Mickey Mantle hit below .200 3 WS in a row. You cherry-picked the .270 because he hit .267 this year, correct? He's a .280 career playoff hitter. If a team had the money to pay him and not ruin the rest of their team, it would be crazy to chose not to add him based on a couple of postseason series.

 

Well, I've never heard Babe Ruth described as "Clutch" have you?

[Rowand44]

The main issue I think with all of this, if the Sox go out and sign A-Rod to a $25-$30M per season deal this off-season, are the Sox going to be able to fill other needs? Are they going to be able to bring in 2, 3 new guys for the pen? Are we going to be able to upgrade at one of the OF spots?

 

Because as good of a player as A-Rod is, you fill those needs with some good players, and this team can easily make the playoffs next season.

Well right, I think that's why everything depends on if JR thinks ARod can make that money back on his own(if that makes sense). If he thinks he can and he's still willing to spend more money than it's a no brainer, but if not than it's also a no brainer to not sign him.

[29andPoplar]

Joe Cowley on the White Sox radio show this morning, some interesting thoughts -

 

He believes Torii Hunter is their primary target and he knows "for a fact" two White Sox players are already calling and recruiting him.

 

Cowley says the White Sox will inquire on ARod but sees it as an extreme longshot.

 

He says MacDougal will be back, says the Sox are going to give MacDougal every opportunity to turn things around but he will be a 6th/early 7th inning pitcher until/unless he proves himself worthy of pitching in the 8th. Says MacDougal's problem is confidence and to make it worse, MacDougal's confidence wavers day to day. Also that MacDougal needs to understand this is not KC, here it's every pitch matters from April 1st onward. Says MacDougal has kind of an "oh well" demeanor.

 

Also says they will definetely explore deals for Contreras and Garland but wouldn't hesitate to bring them back if they don't get the deals they want. Cowley mentioned moving Konerko is a possibility but less likely than trading a starter.

 

On Rowand, Cowley says he talks to Rowand "now and again" and he believes strongly Rowand would take less years and dollars to come back here, in relation to the $84M reports out there.