2007-08 NBA Thread

[DBAHO]

They could always move Thabo into the lineup as well. Make him the PG e.g handling the ball, but make him defend against SG's, taking the pressure of Hinrich a bit.

 

And Navarro could be quite the 6th man as well for the Bulls. I think it makes a lot of sense for them, and having a good scoring big who can draw double's, should make it easier for the likes of Deng and Hinrich to penetrate or shoot open jumpers.

[ZoomSlowik]

They could always move Thabo into the lineup as well. Make him the PG e.g handling the ball, but make him defend against SG's, taking the pressure of Hinrich a bit.

 

And Navarro could be quite the 6th man as well for the Bulls. I think it makes a lot of sense for them, and having a good scoring big who can draw double's, should make it easier for the likes of Deng and Hinrich to penetrate or shoot open jumpers.

 

Man, I REALLY don't want to see Thabo in the lineup, he's not ready for that. He can't score, and he turns it over quite a bit too.

 

It definitely makes sense, they'd just need to beef up the backcourt a bit and find another outside shooter after that.

[whitesoxfan101]

Bulls win Boylan's debut over Milwaukee. Too many turnovers, but nice to see the Bulls (and more specifically, Ben Gordon) attack the rim and earn dominance at the line. But want to know why the Bulls are in this bad spot? The box scores from tonight alone don't lie (and yes, Hammerhead Johnson, if your reading this, you were right and I was wrong on Tyson Chandler).

 

Ben Wallace: 4 points, 10 rebounds, 3 dimes, 2 steals, 4 blocks (and this is as good a night as he's had all year)

Tyson Chandler: 17 points, 17 rebounds (also, one of his better nights, but still)

 

Then you get to the 2006 draft, when the 3 headed choice was Brandon Roy, a desperately needed legit 2 guard who can score, LaMarcus Aldridge, a desperately needed legit big man who can score, or freak athlete but MAJOR project Tyrus Thomas.

 

Brandon Roy: 22 points, 6 rebounds, 5 dimes, 1 steal

LaMarcus Aldridge: 21 points, 8 rebounds, 3 dimes, 2 steals, 2 blocks

Tyrus Thomas: 4:12 on the floor, 1 rebounds, 1 dime, 2 turnovers, 1 foul

 

Now Tyrus did have an even worse night than usual, but those numbers are pretty close to normal for the boys in Portland, who have won 12 in a row in the mighty Western Conference. Scott Skiles isn't the reason this team is where it's at, John Paxson is.

[Balta1701]

Now Tyrus did have an even worse night than usual, but those numbers are pretty close to normal for the boys in Portland, who have won 12 in a row in the mighty Western Conference. Scott Skiles isn't the reason this team is where it's at, John Paxson is.

I wonder what kind of numbers Aldridge/Roy would be putting up if they only got 4 minutes of playing time every game.

[WHarris1]

I wonder what kind of numbers Aldridge/Roy would be putting up if they only got 4 minutes of playing time every game.

This is of course ignoring the fact that there is a reason those guys play more than 4 minutes a game and Tyrus doesn't right?

[Balta1701]

This is of course ignoring the fact that there is a reason those guys play more than 4 minutes a game and Tyrus doesn't right?

I'm personally a big fan of how Tyrus put up 19/12 against the Pistons our first meeting this season, and then got a DNP-CD our next game against them. Or how Noah, for example, has been one of the most effective rookies out there per minute if you believe the stats, but Noah barely sees the court either (DNP-CD for him last night too).

 

And, I also wonder...how much of Roy/Aldridge being effective this year is due to them, you know, playing last year? Guys just don't get better sitting on the bench.

 

I have this feeling that 2 more years are going to go buy, TT is going to walk as a FA having never averaged more than 15 minutes per game for us, and he'll wind up turning into a steal like Jermaine O'Neal was when he first came to the Pacers. Talented guy buried on the bench, doesn't ever get a full committed chance to work through those issues, and winds up doing so on some other team.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I'll add these in there. Per 48 minutes, Tyrus Thomas scores 1.5 fewer points than Aaron Gray, has 1.2 more rebounds, 1 more blocked shot, .8 fewer turnovers, and .8 fewer turnovers (Yes, Gray turns the ball over more than TT). Yet, last night, Gray got 14 minutes to TT's 4. They also commit similar numbers of fouls. TT also grabs more steals. Noah scores a bit less, grabs the same number of rebounds, blocks even more shots, turns the ball over as many times as TT, and puts up similar foul numbers. And he gets a DNP-CD.

 

These guys are already, at a young age, putting up effective numbers, which one would expect would improve with time given their ages and inexperience. But Between our 2 last top 10 picks, they got 4 minutes yesterday and barely see the floor outside of crunch time.

 

I lik eboth of the picks, i like the athletes, i like how they could play with the other guys in this system. But if we're going to keep giving Ben Wallace and Joe Smith 50+ minutes per game and, then these guys are simply wasted, and we might as well move them because they do nothing for us sitting at the end of the bench thinking "Damn I'm talented". If we're not going to play them, then trade them while they still have some value and let some other team develop them.

 

 

[WHarris1]

I'll add these in there. Per 48 minutes, Tyrus Thomas scores 1.5 fewer points than Aaron Gray, has 1.2 more rebounds, 1 more blocked shot, .8 fewer turnovers, and .8 fewer turnovers (Yes, Gray turns the ball over more than TT). Yet, last night, Gray got 14 minutes to TT's 4. They also commit similar numbers of fouls. TT also grabs more steals. Noah scores a bit less, grabs the same number of rebounds, blocks even more shots, turns the ball over as many times as TT, and puts up similar foul numbers. And he gets a DNP-CD.

 

These guys are already, at a young age, putting up effective numbers, which one would expect would improve with time given their ages and inexperience. But Between our 2 last top 10 picks, they got 4 minutes yesterday and barely see the floor outside of crunch time.

 

I lik eboth of the picks, i like the athletes, i like how they could play with the other guys in this system. But if we're going to keep giving Ben Wallace and Joe Smith 50+ minutes per game and, then these guys are simply wasted, and we might as well move them because they do nothing for us sitting at the end of the bench thinking "Damn I'm talented". If we're not going to play them, then trade them while they still have some value and let some other team develop them.

While I actually do agree for the most part that Tyrus and Noah need more consistent minutes and they are being handled poorly, I don't see the sense in comparing Tyrus to Aaron Gray. You can't really compare their minutes because they are put on the floor to serve entirely different purposes. Gray gets in to take up space down low, use his size, clog the lane, and contribute some back to the basket offense. While Tyrus certainly cannot do that. It's not that Gray plays more minutes because he is the better player, it's because he fills a bigger need.

 

And I absolutely agree that there is no reason for Ben Wallace and Joe Smith to be taking up such huge amounts of minutes when we have these two young guys that could actually make use of the play time, and gain valuable experience while providing similar if not better production.

Edited December 29, 2007 by WHarris1

[Balta1701]

While I actually do agree for the most part that Tyrus and Noah need more consistent minutes and they are being handled poorly, I don't see the sense in comparing Tyrus to Aaron Gray. You can't really compare their minutes because they are put on the floor to serve entirely different purposes. Gray gets in to take up space down low, use his size, clog the lane, and contribute some back to the basket offense. While Tyrus certainly cannot do that. It's not that Gray plays more minutes because he is the better player, it's because he fills a bigger need.

The reason I brought Gray into this is that he's a rookie as well, and at least lately, he's a rookie who's been getting more PT than TT or Noah. I have no problem at all with playing Gray, but I have a problem with Gray getting 14 minutes, Wallace and Smith getting 55, and TT and Noah getting 4. And I have a problem with saying that TT needs to cut down on the fouls or the turnovers or to do something specific better when the stats say that Gray is putting up just as many or more fouls and TO's as TT, yet Gray sees time on the floor and TT doesn't.

[ZoomSlowik]

I'm personally a big fan of how Tyrus put up 19/12 against the Pistons our first meeting this season, and then got a DNP-CD our next game against them. Or how Noah, for example, has been one of the most effective rookies out there per minute if you believe the stats, but Noah barely sees the court either (DNP-CD for him last night too).

 

And, I also wonder...how much of Roy/Aldridge being effective this year is due to them, you know, playing last year? Guys just don't get better sitting on the bench.

 

I have this feeling that 2 more years are going to go buy, TT is going to walk as a FA having never averaged more than 15 minutes per game for us, and he'll wind up turning into a steal like Jermaine O'Neal was when he first came to the Pacers. Talented guy buried on the bench, doesn't ever get a full committed chance to work through those issues, and winds up doing so on some other team.

 

Oh please. Tyrus doesn't get those kind of consistent minutes because he can't handle them. He might have one good game here and there, but then he has several mediocre to poor ones, and that's when he WAS playing. That's a far cry from Aldridge AVERAGING 18 and 8 right now, and he averaged 15 and 8 in the month of March last year before the heart problem came up. Plus Tyrus got 19 minutes a game after the break last year and averaged 20.8 minutes through the month of November. It's not like he's never had a chance to do anything, if he'd consistently produced during those stretches we wouldn't have this problem. After they realized that Tyrus wasn't ready to be a consistent contributor and their offense went to s*** they started playing Smith more to try to fix it.

 

Face it, the Bulls made their own bed with that pick, they took the raw guy with potential over the more polished big guy that wasn't exactly a slouch athletically despite their obvious need for immediate production. I'm not going to say they should have taken Roy after the fact since they needed a big a lot more than a guard with Hinrich and Gordon playing pretty well, but passing on Aldridge just wasn't very smart.

 

Noah should be getting more time though, I won't argue with that. With the current state of their frontcourt they could use his energy and basketball IQ at the position.

[RockRaines]

The reason I brought Gray into this is that he's a rookie as well, and at least lately, he's a rookie who's been getting more PT than TT or Noah. I have no problem at all with playing Gray, but I have a problem with Gray getting 14 minutes, Wallace and Smith getting 55, and TT and Noah getting 4. And I have a problem with saying that TT needs to cut down on the fouls or the turnovers or to do something specific better when the stats say that Gray is putting up just as many or more fouls and TO's as TT, yet Gray sees time on the floor and TT doesn't.

The team needs an offensive presence down low and neither Noah or TT bring that to the table. Pax drafted poorly for need and picked up defensive players and slashers when we really needed a big man who can handle the post with his back to the basket. Gray is the closest thing we have to that.

[Balta1701]

The team needs an offensive presence down low and neither Noah or TT bring that to the table. Pax drafted poorly for need and picked up defensive players and slashers when we really needed a big man who can handle the post with his back to the basket. Gray is the closest thing we have to that.

This team needs an offensive presence down low at least to my eyes because the style of ball the team insists on playing requires one. The offense continues to try to play the inside-outside, slow it down, 2 man game type ball, and we have a roster not built to play that way. We have athletes in Deng, Gordon, Tyrus, Noah, Duhon, etc., and guys who can create the break by playing defense and generating turnovers/rebounds in Noah, Wallace, Tyrus, Hinrich, and Deng, but we don't take advantage of it.

 

This team looks by far the best to me when they're moving quickly, moving the ball around, and using its quickness, youth, speed, and defense/rebounding players to generate easy shots. Thats what our roster screams. But we insist on playing slowed down games where the PG brings the ball up and we try to run the ball through the post to generate an open jump shot, which we're just not built to do. It negates our strengths and exacerbates our weaknesses, and it requires a guy like Gray or Smith be given minutes because they have that remarkable ability to stand in the post without moving around much.

 

If we traded our athletes for a guy like Gasol, it could have worked better, but that would still require us keeping our key outside guys like Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich, which seems like it would kill that deal because the Grizz keep asking for those guys. So, if we can't get the personnel to fit the type of offense that the coach wanted, why not change the style of play a bit and try to play to our strengths.

[ZoomSlowik]

This team needs an offensive presence down low at least to my eyes because the style of ball the team insists on playing requires one. The offense continues to try to play the inside-outside, slow it down, 2 man game type ball, and we have a roster not built to play that way. We have athletes in Deng, Gordon, Tyrus, Noah, Duhon, etc., and guys who can create the break by playing defense and generating turnovers/rebounds in Noah, Wallace, Tyrus, Hinrich, and Deng, but we don't take advantage of it.

 

This team looks by far the best to me when they're moving quickly, moving the ball around, and using its quickness, youth, speed, and defense/rebounding players to generate easy shots. Thats what our roster screams. But we insist on playing slowed down games where the PG brings the ball up and we try to run the ball through the post to generate an open jump shot, which we're just not built to do. It negates our strengths and exacerbates our weaknesses, and it requires a guy like Gray or Smith be given minutes because they have that remarkable ability to stand in the post without moving around much.

 

If we traded our athletes for a guy like Gasol, it could have worked better, but that would still require us keeping our key outside guys like Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich, which seems like it would kill that deal because the Grizz keep asking for those guys. So, if we can't get the personnel to fit the type of offense that the coach wanted, why not change the style of play a bit and try to play to our strengths.

 

You really still need a big man anyways even if you run that kind of attack. It'd really help a ton if you had a big man that you had to respect on the screen and rolls instead of teams being able to over-play the guards. If you have someone like Gasol running them you can burn the other team if they do that, and if they sag on Gasol like they probably should, Kirk, Ben, and Deng have more space to create a shot and more time to find an open man.

 

Depending on the cost, I really think acquiring Gasol is the thing to do. Yeah, Trading Kirk or Ben would hurt quite a bit in the short term, but with Gasol on the roster a major scoring threat at SG isn't as big a deal. You can plug in someone like Ronnie Brewer that'll play some good D and chip in around 10 a game on layups/dunks and open jumpers, or maybe get someone like Jason Kapono that's more of a pure sniper. Ben's ability to create his own shot becomes less crucial with a post guy drawing attention from the perimeter players.

[Balta1701]

DNP - CD again for TT today. At least Noah got 17 minutes.

 

Just trade him already.

[Brian]

Gordon with 25 off the bench. Amazes me how good he is off the bench and how inconsistent when starts.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm hoping Gordon's play off the bench will parlay to increased trade value and the Bulls will make a swap that gets them some more talent. I really want the Bulls to turn into a high octane, up tempo offensive team (ala Suns because I really think TT and Noah would really flourish in that sort of system, plus Deng/Hinrich both seem to be solid fits for it). Gordon technically is a solid fit as well as he is quick, but defensively he is weak and he is a poor passer as I feel those run and gun systems need to have multiple guards that are decent shooters and great passers.

 

I'd really like to see the Bulls move Nocioni and Ben Gordon (and I'm a Noc fan). Maybe not in the same deal, but in a couple seperate deals. I like the new up tempo mentality Boylan is preaching too.

[Chisoxfn]

Oh and I'd love to see the Bulls get rid of Ben Wallace. I wouldn't care at all what they took back because I feel his offensive inabilities have really stifled this team (in the sense that he completely kills any offensive momentum and really allows other teams to have 5 guys guarding 4 (and at times with the ineptness of the Bulls low post game you can practically have 5 guys guarding 3 of the Bulls players).

[DBAHO]

If the Bulls offered Noc + Gordon plus picks for Gasol, something could happen there.

 

As for Big Ben, I think the Bulls are stuck with him, unless they want to take a longer contract back (for another underperfoming player).

 

As for Tyrus Thomas, if the Bulls aren't going to play an uptempo system, he's never going to get the best out of his abilities in Chicago.

 

In fact the Bulls could include him in a deal with Wallace as a sweetner perhaps, or even use him in a Gasol deal (because him and Rudy in Memphis running the floor would be hard to stop).

 

Bulls take on the Magic next, that should be an interesting game.

 

We've won 3 in a row, but we're certainly not playing as well as we did early on in the season.

 

Jameer Nelson ain't the starter anymore, Bogans play has dropped off a bit, and Lewis has been underperforming a bit with his neck injury.

[whitesoxfan101]

Anytime somebody is dumb enough to bring up the per 48 minute stats, you know they have a nothing argument. I can't believe a poster as smart as Balta has resorted to using that stat as a point of reference to defend some of the inexcuseable and proven to be wrong moves by John Paxson.

Edited December 30, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[Brian]

Amazing that Gordon comes off the bench for another great game, but in the last minute of regulation almost chokes it up. Getting stripped by Dwight Howard between the rings than instead of taking a charge on Nelson, fouls him so they can tie it.

Overtime...

[chimpy2121]

Tough loss.

[Balta1701]

If the Bulls offered Noc + Gordon plus picks for Gasol, something could happen there.

The way the Bulls are playing right now, the Bulls would be crazy to give up Noc + Gordon and to even consider thinking about their first rounder this year. They could well be looking at a mid to high lottery pick. Imagine that trade becoming Noc + Gordon + the other Gordon for Gasol. That's murder.

[RockRaines]

Regardless of the game today, this team looks better after losing skiles, they actually look ready to play.

[Steve9347]

The way the Bulls are playing right now, the Bulls would be crazy to give up Noc + Gordon and to even consider thinking about their first rounder this year. They could well be looking at a mid to high lottery pick. Imagine that trade becoming Noc + Gordon + the other Gordon for Gasol. That's murder.

Dude, the Bulls' draft pick is going to be no where NEAR the lottery let alone high enough to get Gordon. Their pick more than likely will wind up in the 18-22 range.

[knightni]

So, if it's nowhere near the lottery, you think they'll go deep into the playoffs then?