southsideirish71 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Oct 30, 2007 -> 12:22 PM) No, he is Carl Yastrzemski; that's what Hawk says anyways I still remember when ol Foghorn would do his team position by position comparisons during a slow part of the game and how he would pick the sox players over team X because the white sox players were all better. Its myopic homerism like that you get to see close up and in person at soxfest. "X year is the best soxfest I have ever seen. You are the best fans. Kenny and Ozzie, thats the best management team in all of baseball. Y Free Agent we just signed is the type of player we need on this team, When I look at Y, I think winner, grinder. Y reminds me of Z Boston Player from my time." This year we will have a new wrinkle in his speech. Last year was a perfect storm, cold weather and injuries robbed us of a championship season. When you look at the 07 sox do you see 90 game losers, I dont. With a healthy Erstad, who daggumit is a more rounded baseball player than any Torii hunter. Does Torii hunter have a ring, daggumit he doesnt. Erstad punted. That proves he is tough. He will come back from a fluke injury laden season. Erstad healthy is like having a free agent. A gold glove guy who knows how to win. When I look at the delicate eyes, his pouting lips, and the grizzly beard....as he takes a moment to lament. I see ballplayer DJ. Its like God broke the mold when Darin was built. The pitchers in the AL Central better look out, Greg Walker says they are going to pay. Hell Ozzie hired a bunting and baserunning guru, a winner. We will get back to small ball. Bunting, we will bunt when people dont have a clue we will bunt. We will run. Paully better get his track shoes on. If I was a betting man DJ, I would bet on the sox coming back into excellence this year." Edited October 30, 2007 by southsideirish71 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 QUOTE(greg775 @ Oct 30, 2007 -> 11:59 AM) I call bulls*** on that. Joe Crede is Brooks Robinson. The modern day Brooks Robinson. Really? I mean honestly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 As much as I like Crede, Brooks Robinson? Brooks Crede. Nope, it just doesn't work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) Brooks Robinson was a career .267 hitter with 268 home runs. If he played today, you guys would fry him over the coals for hitting .267. Answer this honestly. Is Crede a GREAT defensive player? A GREAT one? I don't see how you wouldn't say "yes." Can Crede hit .267 for a career and hit that many homers had he stayed healthy. Uh, I think so. What makes my Brooks comparison so wrong?? Crede is a great defender who like Brooks can get a clutch hit. Edited October 31, 2007 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(greg775 @ Oct 30, 2007 -> 10:57 PM) Brooks Robinson was a career .267 hitter with 268 home runs. If he played today, you guys would fry him over the coals for hitting .267. Answer this honestly. Is Crede a GREAT defensive player? A GREAT one? I don't see how you wouldn't say "yes." Can Crede hit .267 for a career and hit that many homers had he stayed healthy. Uh, I think so. What makes my Brooks comparison so wrong?? Crede is a great defender who like Brooks can get a clutch hit. Robinson had an OPS+ of 104 with a career high of 145 along with 16 consecutive gold gloves and 14 Allstar selections and won the American League MVP. Crede has a career OPS+ number of 94 with a career high of 107 with no gold gloves. And how again besides blind homerism do you think that Joe Crede and Brooks are remotely alike. Joe Crede isnt even the best 3rd baseman we have had in the last 20 years. The only person that started this silly Robinson crap was Hawk who is as objective as Bagdad Bob. Edited October 31, 2007 by southsideirish71 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 QUOTE(greg775 @ Oct 30, 2007 -> 10:57 PM) Brooks Robinson was a career .267 hitter with 268 home runs. If he played today, you guys would fry him over the coals for hitting .267. Answer this honestly. Is Crede a GREAT defensive player? A GREAT one? I don't see how you wouldn't say "yes." Can Crede hit .267 for a career and hit that many homers had he stayed healthy. Uh, I think so. What makes my Brooks comparison so wrong?? Crede is a great defender who like Brooks can get a clutch hit. If you're going to compare the 50's and 60's to the 2000's then you're going to need a stat that takes into account what the rest of the league was doing offensively at the time. So in order to be as fair as possible to both parties I'll use OPS+ which takes into account such things as league averages and park factor. 100 is average. Anything above 120 is really good. Joe Crede will be 30 years old next year, by the end of his age 30 season Brooks Robinson had appeared in 8 All-Star games, had won 8 gold gloves, 1 MVP, 3 other finishes in the top 3 of MVP voting, 5 seasons with at least a 120 OPS+ (including 1 at 145) and was well on his way to a hall of fame career. If the eras were at all comparable then I'd probably buy into your batting average/home run comparison but until Joe Crede has even 1 season where his offensive production compared to the rest of the league is as valuable as Brooks Robinson's '62, '65, '66 or '67 seasons (he'll never touch Brooks' '1964 season) I'm going to have a hard time comparing the two. Joe Crede's breakout year was a 107 OPS+ Brooks Robinson by the time he was as old as Crede is right now had already blown that out of the water 5 times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) C'mon, facts are facts. Brooks hit .267; Joe arguably would surpass Brooks' numbers if healthy for a career. Crede is a vaccuum; Brooks was as well. Crede was instrumental in our WS victory. Very key. I mean I'm all for bagging on our guys as much as the next guy, but check Brooksie's stats. The guy hit .267 for a career. He was no Mark Belanger at the plate, but he did make tons of outs. Joe Crede fields the position flawlessly as did Brooks. He makes all the plays. What is so outlandish about my claim aside from taking Joe for granted?? I respect your comparison, Kalapse, nice job, but at least answer my question ... Is Joe Crede a GREAT fielder? If you do not answer, Yes, I say you are taking him for granted. He is as good a fielder as Brooks I am saying. And like Brooks, he's a clutch hitter. Edited October 31, 2007 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 QUOTE(greg775 @ Oct 31, 2007 -> 12:09 AM) C'mon, facts are facts. Brooks hit .267; Joe arguably would surpass Brooks' numbers if healthy for a career. Crede is a vaccuum; Brooks was as well. Crede was instrumental in our WS victory. Very key. Facts are facts, and different generations are different generations. There was a time when gas was $1 a gallon; now it's $3. Similarily, there was once a time when a .267 average was a pretty damn good average, and now it's no longer as good as it once was. 60 homers was heralded once upon a time, and it was done like 6 times within a 4 year period; that deteriorates a bit of the value, does it not? .267 yesterday is not the same as .267 today, so I'll absolutely disagree with that. Secondly, THE PITCHING WAS MORE KEY IN THE WORLD SERIES VICTORY THAN CREDE. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS. I respect your comparison, Kalapse, nice job, but at least answer my question ... Is Joe Crede a GREAT fielder? If you do not answer, Yes, I say you are taking him for granted. He is as good a fielder as Brooks I am saying. And like Brooks, he's a clutch hitter. You are claiming that Crede = Brooks. That's outlandish at best. Crede is a good player, but not irreplaceable and he should not be looked upon as the savior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 You're still trying to compare to different decades, .267 means nothing to me since a .267 AVG in the 60's is COMPLETELY different from a .267 AVG now a days. You're also looking at the career stats of a man who played for 22 years to a guy who has been in the league for 5 years. Comparing their batting averages is bulls***, just look at the translated stats that Brooks put up in his 20's and compare those to Crede's. There's no comparison. And "great" is a very subjective term, when Crede is fully healthy, with no back pain he is an outstanding defender, right up there with the best defensive 3B in the game today but if he's having serious back pain like this past year then he's rather mediocre. I can't compare him to Brooks Robinson since I was about negative 20 years old when he was in his prime but when comparing him to the Eric Chavez's and the Scott Rolen's of the world I'd say a healthy Joe Crede can hold his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Fair enough, Kalapse, but this era thing is puzzling to me. Former Sox pitcher Gary Peters whacked about five home runs one year and hit about .230. You mean to tell me if he played today he'd be Ankiel? I seriously doubt that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I'm just going to say this and then back out of this conversation. I've seen Brooks Robinson and Joe Crede play. Brooksie is by far the better of the two. And for good measure, to all of those that bash Ron Santo, he was also way better than Joe Crede. Keep in mind that I think Crede is a very respectable ballplayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I love Ron Santo and Ron Santo was not better than Joe Crede defensively. Now for an entire career, yes, Santo should be in the Hall. I can't figure out why Sox fans won't admit this guy is not good, but a great fielder. Yes the pitching was more important to our WS victory Kalapse. But pitching is nothing w/out defense. To not admit the guy is a great fielder, in the same realm as Brooks, I think is stupid. He was one of the big keys to our WS victory with Dye, pitching, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(greg775 @ Oct 31, 2007 -> 01:42 PM) I love Ron Santo and Ron Santo was not better than Joe Crede defensively. Now for an entire career, yes, Santo should be in the Hall. I can't figure out why Sox fans won't admit this guy is not good, but a great fielder. Yes the pitching was more important to our WS victory Kalapse. But pitching is nothing w/out defense. To not admit the guy is a great fielder, in the same realm as Brooks, I think is stupid. He was one of the big keys to our WS victory with Dye, pitching, etc. You realize that there are players who play 3rd base today that are better fielders than Joe correct. So does that make them > Brooks. Crede is a good fielder, makes some killer plays. But you are seriously putting him up there with what people argue is the best defensive third baseman that has lived. Edited October 31, 2007 by southsideirish71 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 QUOTE(greg775 @ Oct 31, 2007 -> 01:42 PM) I love Ron Santo and Ron Santo was not better than Joe Crede defensively. Now for an entire career, yes, Santo should be in the Hall. I can't figure out why Sox fans won't admit this guy is not good, but a great fielder. Yes the pitching was more important to our WS victory WITE. But pitching is nothing w/out defense. To not admit the guy is a great fielder, in the same realm as Brooks, I think is stupid. He was one of the big keys to our WS victory with Dye, pitching, etc. Why aren't you slobbering all over Uribe's knob then too? Uribe is the one who made the two best defensive plays of the entire postseason in the 9th inning of game 4? Is he better than Ozzie Smith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 "i knew brooks robinson and mr. crede, with all do respect, you are no brooks robinson" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 OK, I give up. Nobody on here is going to agree with me that Crede is a "great" fielder. I can't believe it, but not one person supports me on that. Amazing. As to why I don't slobber on Uribe's knob as you put it, I'm not gay. As to why I don't praise Uribe, I'm sick of his approach at the plate. Don't want him around anymore. I don't praise all White Sox, just the ones I think are good to great players. I think Crede is a great defensive player, not just a good one and an amazing clutch hitter. I think he's as good defensively as Brooksie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I'm just going to say this and then back out of this conversation. I've seen Brooks Robinson and Joe Crede play. Brooksie is by far the better of the two. And for good measure, to all of those that bash Ron Santo, he was also way better than Joe Crede. Keep in mind that I think Crede is a very respectable ballplayer. I was going to say if Brooks Robinson is Joe Crede, than the modern day Ron Santo must be Brandon Inge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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