Is this harassment?

[LosMediasBlancas]

My good friend, we'll call her Mary, works for an IT company in Chicago. On Friday, the HR person told her that the president of the compay thinks her attire is unprofessional. When she asked for an explanation, the HR person told her that she didn't think Mary's clothes are unprofessional, but that she was doing her job by relaying a message from the President. Mary then told her immediate boss about the incident and he said he didn't know anything about it and also agreed that in his opinion, her attire is not unprofessional.

 

Mary freaks out and goes shopping over the weekend for pants and sweaters that are two sizes too big on her. Monday and Tuesday she shows up for work in huge pants and sweaters, flat shoes wearing no make up and her hair pulled back into a pony tail.

 

Today, the pres. calls Mary into his office and says: "Mary, you're a beautiful woman with a beautiiful body and I just want to make sure that our clients remember you for your work and not for your apperance". She is visibly upset by this conversation and he comments that: "wow, you look like you're gonna cry." She says " No, but I have a lot of work to get back to" and leaves. As she's walking out, he says: "By the way, you look very nice today".

 

Mary and I met at work a few years ago and she is one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. She wore skirts to her knees, high heels, never open toe shoes, nice blouses. Nothing she wore was whorerish, or too sexy or unprofessional. The 'problem' is that she is so hot, she's gonna look sexy in anything she wears.

 

By the way, their employee manual is very vague on the dress code. It simply states 'business casual'. Also, her work is flawless and the pres. has even told her that numerous times in the past.

 

Legally, is this a form of harassment? What can she do?

[southsideirish71]

I dont know if its harassment, but this thread is worthless without pics.

 

Comments about her body might be the kicker. Its amazing the comments people think they can get away with at work. If her attire was outrageous they should give her examples of how. Being hot is not a reason. Making comments like this is pretty damn slimey.

 

 

One site

Edited October 31, 2007 by southsideirish71

[LosMediasBlancas]

See, it's kinda hairy. He's not threatening her in any way, or coming on to her.

 

I told her I think one of two things is happening:

 

Either, all the men in the office are constantly talking about how hot she and the pres. sees her as a distraction.

OR

The short, fat, bald headed president has the hots for her and is pissed that he has to go home and nail his fat, ugly wife. Meanwhile, he has hot ass Mary parading around him all day at work and it's driving him nuts.

 

He's definitely mishandled the situation, but can she take legal action yet?

 

[Texsox]

"This conversation is making me uncomfortable. My manner of dress is similar to the other women in the company and at my clients. Thank you for your concern, but until today, none of my clients have ever made mention of my dress"

 

It could be that someone at a client said something about her and he is feeling paternal. For example, he's talking to the President of a client's company and he says. that Mary, wow! You really know how to hire 'em. etc.

[Jenksismyhero]

IMO, commenting on her clothing (being professional v unprofessional) and simply saying "you like nice today" is not enough. Had he followed it up with "and I'd hit that" or something, then yeah.

[Controlled Chaos]

My good friend, we'll call her Mary, works for an IT company in Chicago. On Friday, the HR person told her that the president of the compay thinks her attire is unprofessional. When she asked for an explanation, the HR person told her that she didn't think Mary's clothes are unprofessional, but that she was doing her job by relaying a message from the President. Mary then told her immediate boss about the incident and he said he didn't know anything about it and also agreed that in his opinion, her attire is not unprofessional.

 

Mary freaks out and goes shopping over the weekend for pants and sweaters that are two sizes too big on her. Monday and Tuesday she shows up for work in huge pants and sweaters, flat shoes wearing no make up and her hair pulled back into a pony tail.

 

Today, the pres. calls Mary into his office and says: "Mary, you're a beautiful woman with a beautiiful body and I just want to make sure that our clients remember you for your work and not for your apperance". She is visibly upset by this conversation and he comments that: "wow, you look like you're gonna cry." She says " No, but I have a lot of work to get back to" and leaves. As she's walking out, he says: "By the way, you look very nice today".

 

Mary and I met at work a few years ago and she is one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. She wore skirts to her knees, high heels, never open toe shoes, nice blouses. Nothing she wore was whorerish, or too sexy or unprofessional. The 'problem' is that she is so hot, she's gonna look sexy in anything she wears.

 

By the way, their employee manual is very vague on the dress code. It simply states 'business casual'. Also, her work is flawless and the pres. has even told her that numerous times in the past.

 

Legally, is this a form of harassment? What can she do?

 

 

A so hot, she's gonna look sexy in anything she wears IT chick?? I agree with SSI, I need to see a pic.

 

It's not harrassment, but it's so weird for me to hear any boss say something to an employee along the lines of "you have a beautiful body" I mean unless said employee works at a gym or something, it's just weird.

[mreye]

"If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me?"

[LosMediasBlancas]

A so hot, she's gonna look sexy in anything she wears IT chick?? I agree with SSI, I need to see a pic.

 

It's not harrassment, but it's so weird for me to hear any boss say something to an employee along the lines of "you have a beautiful body" I mean unless said employee works at a gym or something, it's just weird.

 

The point about the IT industry is valid and might be part of the problem. She's always told me that the field is mostly men and the few women in it are, well very plane Jane. It sounds like they just don't know how to handle the situation.

Edited October 31, 2007 by LosMediasBlancas

[LosMediasBlancas]

"This conversation is making me uncomfortable. My manner of dress is similar to the other women in the company and at my clients. Thank you for your concern, but until today, none of my clients have ever made mention of my dress"

 

It could be that someone at a client said something about her and he is feeling paternal. For example, he's talking to the President of a client's company and he says. that Mary, wow! You really know how to hire 'em. etc.

 

 

Let's say that's true, it still doesn't justify him asking her to change her attire, especially since it's within the company dress code. He should've had the balls to say something to whomever made the comment to him about Mary.

 

I seem to remember a female attorney was in a similar situation years ago and she won a settlement from the firm she worked for.

[Soxbadger]

Well instead of just giving an opinion Ill give the law, and then give my interpretation.

 

Since she works in Chicago, she is governed by Illinois law.

 

775 ILCS 5/2-101:

 

(E) Sexual Harassment. "Sexual harassment" means any unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors or any conduct of a sexual nature when (1) submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment, (2) submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting such individual, or (3) such conduct has the purpose or effect of substantially interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile or offensive working environment.

 

 

Because there are no unwelcome advances, request for sexual favors, or conduct of a sexual nature, your friend would have a very hard time winning a sexual harassment suit (and thats not even going into the 3 elements).

 

Im trying to come up with another cause of action, but the problem is as of right now, there is no proof that the company is treating her any different due to the dress attire.

 

Let me think about it more, I dont really think there is much as of yet. But facts change, if at work they start treating her different, etc, then perhaps there is more than meets the eye. But as of right now, I would not say that conduct alone would meet the requirements of sexual harassment.

 

If it really bothers her enough she can consult an attorney who specializes in this area, most will give a free consultation, and if they think its a good enough case would take it on contingency.

 

I could have done more research also, but I just grabbed the statute, so there may be some cases out there that give better guidance. But free is free right?

 

 

[LosMediasBlancas]

Well instead of just giving an opinion Ill give the law, and then give my interpretation.

 

Since she works in Chicago, she is governed by Illinois law.

 

775 ILCS 5/2-101:

 

(E) Sexual Harassment. "Sexual harassment" means any unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors or any conduct of a sexual nature when (1) submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment, (2) submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting such individual, or (3) such conduct has the purpose or effect of substantially interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile or offensive working environment.

Because there are no unwelcome advances, request for sexual favors, or conduct of a sexual nature, your friend would have a very hard time winning a sexual harassment suit (and thats not even going into the 3 elements).

 

Im trying to come up with another cause of action, but the problem is as of right now, there is no proof that the company is treating her any different due to the dress attire.

 

Let me think about it more, I dont really think there is much as of yet. But facts change, if at work they start treating her different, etc, then perhaps there is more than meets the eye. But as of right now, I would not say that conduct alone would meet the requirements of sexual harassment.

 

If it really bothers her enough she can consult an attorney who specializes in this area, most will give a free consultation, and if they think its a good enough case would take it on contingency.

 

I could have done more research also, but I just grabbed the statute, so there may be some cases out there that give better guidance. But free is free right?

 

 

Thx man.

I told her I would not have changed the way I dressed until they came up with solid, specific details as to how my attire was innapropriate. Then you kind of force their hand to take action and THEN you might have a case against them.

She's not the type to rock the boat though, she'll probably just find a new job.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve9347]

Thx man.

I told her I would not have changed the way I dressed until they came up with solid, specific details as to how my attire was innapropriate. Then you kind of force their hand to take action and THEN you might have a case against them.

She's not the type to rock the boat though, she'll probably just find a new job.

Yeah... that's just embarassing for her to have to even go through it though.

[knightni]

"If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me?"

 

 

DAMMIT!

 

I was just about to type that.

 

 

[Steff]

Thx man.

I told her I would not have changed the way I dressed until they came up with solid, specific details as to how my attire was innapropriate. Then you kind of force their hand to take action and THEN you might have a case against them.

She's not the type to rock the boat though, she'll probably just find a new job.

 

 

I agree with this, and with Soxbadger's follow up comments on the law. It's a slippery slope for sure. And while by definition it might not be "sexual harassment" I would consider it to be close to crossing the "harassment" line. I would strongly advise her NOT to change her dress. Document everything in a journal - especially her personal feelings and how she's being treated in the office. I would even go as far as taking pictures of her work attire. Also encourage her to hang in there. There is no reason at this point to even consider changing jobs. Also, if the boss tries to have another one of these "meetings" with her, she should request a HR rep as soon as the conversation topic becomes clear. I imagine it's hard, but the most important thing is that she retain control over herself and her feelings. Finally, she has nothing to be embarassed about. Reinforce that. It's that line of thinking that idiot bosses count on to control situations like this.

 

 

[YASNY]

I agree with this, and with Soxbadger's follow up comments on the law. It's a slippery slope for sure. And while by definition it might not be "sexual harassment" I would consider it to be close to crossing the "harassment" line. I would strongly advise her NOT to change her dress. Document everything in a journal - especially her personal feelings and how she's being treated in the office. I would even go as far as taking pictures of her work attire. Also encourage her to hang in there. There is no reason at this point to even consider changing jobs. Also, if the boss tries to have another one of these "meetings" with her, she should request a HR rep as soon as the conversation topic becomes clear. I imagine it's hard, but the most important thing is that she retain control over herself and her feelings. Finally, she has nothing to be embarassed about. Reinforce that. It's that line of thinking that idiot bosses count on to control situations like this.

 

Steff, you have this one nailed.

[Texsox]

One key factor that is missing is how they want her to dress. "Professional" is what I read. I assume that the President didn't say wear something that shows off that great body. This is very subtle harassment, almost reverse of the stereotypical behavior that Neanderthal bosses displayed in the dark ages.

 

Would anyone's opinion of harassment change if the President said he just wanted her to dress more conservatively?

 

I agree with Steff in what steps she should take, but we may find at the end of the rainbow, it is a poor attempt at helping her.

[YASNY]

One key factor that is missing is how they want her to dress. "Professional" is what I read. I assume that the President didn't say wear something that shows off that great body. This is very subtle harassment, almost reverse of the stereotypical behavior that Neanderthal bosses displayed in the dark ages.

 

Would anyone's opinion of harassment change if the President said he just wanted her to dress more conservatively?

 

I agree with Steff in what steps she should take, but we may find at the end of the rainbow, it is a poor attempt at helping her.

 

From the original post in this thread...

 

She wore skirts to her knees, high heels, never open toe shoes, nice blouses. Nothing she wore was whorerish, or too sexy or unprofessional.

 

Apparently, she has been dressing in a professional manner.

[RockRaines]

Frankly she is dressing alot more appropriate than several people in fields that I come in contact with. Shoot go check out the local pharma sales rep. Odds are it s beautiful woman with very nice assets that are clearly in view. She is dressing just the way that professional women dress. Of course the comments on the body are what makes this horribly wrong. I am in a technical field and let me tell you the absolute horrible things that come about when even a marginally attractive female comes into an office of mostly software programmers and salesmen. Wow. But it also works both ways. I personally am a salesmen to upper level executives and have been propositioned several times by female professionals that I meet both on sales calls and at trade shows. I have even run into a lady who suggested we sign the contract while skiing in Lake Tahoe. ( I may or may not have obliged) Fact is, its rampant everywhere, and the thicker skin you have the better, and although I am not condoning it, I think that sometimes for women, you have to try and make yourself look ugly to have anyone take you seriously, and that is a complete shot at the attitudes of men in business today.

[RockRaines]

Also, I dont know about you guys, but I almost always find women in business attire who are assertive extremely more attractive than many of the "girls" I see out at the bars on the weekends.

[Texsox]

From the original post in this thread...

 

 

 

Apparently, she has been dressing in a professional manner.

 

What I am saying is it is going to be difficult to prove harassment when the president claims he wanted her to dress more professionally. He gets on the stand and testifies he meant longer skirts or pants, higher necked blouses, whatever. Keeping a log, seeing what others in her position wear, etc. is all very good advice if it comes to that.

 

It is so difficult to counsel an employee in grooming and dress. As a friend you can tell a friend, hey that suit doesn't really work for you or that tie is more appropriate for a date than a meeting with a client. As the President of the company, that could be considered harassment.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Steff, you have this one nailed.

 

especially the part about the pictures...

 

 

seriously though, unless she's dressing like Sailor Moon or some other anime character, I'm sure the IT guys leave her alone.

[southsideirish71]

Who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree?

Sexual Harassment Panda.

Who explains sexual harassment to you and me?

Sexual Harassment Panda.

"Don't say that! Don't touch there!

Don't be nasty!" says the silly bear.

He's come to tell you what's right and wrong.

Sexual Harassment Panda.

 

 

 

[southsideirish71]

especially the part about the pictures...

seriously though, unless she's dressing like Sailor Moon or some other anime character, I'm sure the IT guys leave her alone.

 

Hey now

[sox4lifeinPA]

P.S. The HR person BLEW it. That's who I have a problem with.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Hey now

 

 

I forgot the green. I thought it was implied