Torii Hunter

[fathom]

No s*** its stupid. Even worse to have Coco Crisp at his salary, and to have lost a player for him.

 

Trust me, I want nothing to do with Crisp.

[RockRaines]

Trust me, I want nothing to do with Crisp.

As is my entire point. We already have a backup Of'er who can produce at the same rate.

[sircaffey]

There is no doubt from you. There is a lot of doubt with others. As I stated, Owens was hitting .239 with an OPS under .600 one month before the season ended. How does one month in meaningless games qualify as being better than another player who even in a down year had a higher BA, OBP and SLG than Owens? The games aren't as intense when you are playing out the string. David Aaardsma should have been lights out in 2007 the way he pitched with nothing riding on the outcome in 2006. I didn't invent the September numbers are teasers train of thought.

 

The games may be meaningless to the team's success, but they are far from meaningless for Owens. This isn't some veteran going through the motions for a horrible team like Konerko. This is a rookie playing for a job something that, IMO, is more intense than fighting for your team and a spot in the playoffs.

 

Crisp had a down year? He's been "down" for awhile then.

[YASNY]

The games may be meaningless to the team's success, but they are far from meaningless for Owens. This isn't some veteran going through the motions for a horrible team like Konerko. This is a rookie playing for a job something that, IMO, is more intense than fighting for your team and a spot in the playoffs.

 

Crisp had a down year? He's been "down" for awhile then.

 

The rookie happens to be facing some veterans going through the motions. That's why Sept. success can be so misleading.

[NorthSideSox72]

He hit .287 in July, .229 in August. He is a 4th OF at best. He'll be 27 years old on opening day. He's only 15 months younger than Coco Crisp. Its not like he's some 21 or 22 year old destined to improve.As of now he is a 1 month abberration. Without September, everyone would agree he sucks.

Take it any way you'd like. He has a record of continuous improvement at every level, including the major league level. Owens is not my first choice for starting in CF, believe me. But your bizarre idea that any of us who even hint that he might be a major league player is akin to us thinking he'll hit .340 is pretty ridiculous. Especially when you then ask in another post, how come there is no doubt? Its clear that with Owens you decided long ago what he was capable of, and now have a death grip on defending that opinion. That makes it utterly pointless to discuss it with you, so, I guess I give up.

 

I hope we end up with someone better than Owens in CF. I just don't think that list is quite as long as others do.

 

[Dick Allen]

Take it any way you'd like. He has a record of continuous improvement at every level, including the major league level. Owens is not my first choice for starting in CF, believe me. But your bizarre idea that any of us who even hint that he might be a major league player is akin to us thinking he'll hit .340 is pretty ridiculous. Especially when you then ask in another post, how come there is no doubt? Its clear that with Owens you decided long ago what he was capable of, and now have a death grip on defending that opinion. That makes it utterly pointless to discuss it with you, so, I guess I give up.

 

I hope we end up with someone better than Owens in CF. I just don't think that list is quite as long as others do.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with a "death grip" believing Owens in nothing more than a 4th OF. I never said he wasn't a major leaguer. I said he's not a starter if you are trying to win. And if you go back to my posts, my argument was against the post that claimed Owens>Crisp. Do you think Jerry Owens is better than Coco Crisp? The argument is based on Owens' September.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with a "death grip" believing Owens in nothing more than a 4th OF. I never said he wasn't a major leaguer. I said he's not a starter if you are trying to win. And if you go back to my posts, my argument was against the post that claimed Owens>Crisp. Do you think Jerry Owens is better than Coco Crisp? The argument is based on Owens' September.

Actually, you are the only one using September as the argument, bringing it up over and over again.

 

And no, Owens is not better than Crisp. Owens might, in time, be as good as Crisp is right now. But even that is iffy. The only reason to even analyze a Crisp v Owens question is the salary involved. If by going with Owens instead of Crisp allows you to be significantly better at SS, maybe LF (if Crede is gone), another SP and/or the bullpen, then I think you need to seriously consider having Owens as your starter.

 

[BearSox]

I've calmed down a bit, and wouldn't hate the idea of Hunter, but if he wants 5 years and 75 million guaranteed, forget about it.

[scenario]

I'm not for making Owens the starter but I think the "he sucks because he had only one good month... and it was an aberration" talk is misleading.

 

He played 3 full months after getting recalled: July, August, and September.

 

Here's his BA/OBP by month:

 

July .287/.333

Aug .229/.302

Sept .340/.396

 

So... it looks like there really were two aberration months - one low and one high... because he's probably not as good as the .340 or as bad as the .229.

 

But... somewhere in between, which I think we could reasonably expect, would make him a very valuable addition to this team next year as 4th outfielder.

[BearSox]

have him play the dave roberts role of the 04 Red Sox...

[Dick Allen]

Actually, you are the only one using September as the argument, bringing it up over and over again.

 

And no, Owens is not better than Crisp. Owens might, in time, be as good as Crisp is right now. But even that is iffy. The only reason to even analyze a Crisp v Owens question is the salary involved. If by going with Owens instead of Crisp allows you to be significantly better at SS, maybe LF (if Crede is gone), another SP and/or the bullpen, then I think you need to seriously consider having Owens as your starter.

It is based on September because before September Jerry Owens was hitting .239 with an OPS under 600. No one at that point would have said Owens is bettter than Crisp, which is the original post I responded to. One month later and people are expecting decent things out of him. I've said all along he's a 4th OF maybe a 5th, just not a regular. He's a PR, get called in to get a bunt down guy. He will be 27 years old.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Dick Allen

[rockren]

I just don't see what all the hate for Owens is for.

 

I don't think he's anything special, either. However, how can anyone hate the idea of him moving to LF and batting 8th or 9th? Owens gives us another dimension that we wouldn't necessarily have without him in his ability to play small ball/steal bases.

[daa84]

i dont think theres any personal hate for owens, just the fact that people are rather sick of light hitting, light throwing, borderline CF/LF, type player who has only 1 above average major league tool (speed), which offensively is far less important than on base ability and the ability to hit for extra bases (he slugged .312!)....

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statisti...005.premium.php

 

that link is one of the most basic charts you can get in terms of baseball statistics, but also should be one of the most useful to a manager.....you can do the math and multiply out owens' SBs success....the difference between a runner on 2nd and a runner on 1st is about .15 runs no matter how many outs there are...multiple that by owens 32 SBs and thats 4.8 runs created on his SBs alone on average....which is nice, except of course his CS cost us runs...which according to the chart can cost us anywhere between .23 and .62 runs depending on the # of outs....well go with the middle value and assume that all owens CS occured with 1 out...each of which costs .44 runs * 8 CS =5 3.52 runs his CS cost us so his speed basically created and extra 1.3 runs last year...sweet

 

so basically we should sacrifice a guy who has power and a can create all of those 1.3 runs basically in one swing for a guy like owens who will steal a lot of bases? i can't even believe people around here are making the arguement that we shouldnt get pat burrell because hes "too much of what we already have.".... and people act like owens would help us because he diversifies our lineup (and no not in a racial way)....

 

the chart is certainly not perfect and it does have a few flaws, and im not saying its never a good idea to steal, but honestly, the ability to swipe a base should be looked at as a bonus in a player, and shouldn't be the lone factor in determining how valuable a player is....

 

[southsider2k5]

http://www.winonadailynews.com/articles/20...ts/05hunter.txt

 

Twins hunt for resolution with star centerfielder

 

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By Joe Christensen | Star Tribune (Minneapolis)

 

.

MINNEAPOLIS — It was only 15 years ago, but for the Minnesota Twins it was a much simpler time.

 

They were trying to keep a free-agent center fielder — a 32-year-old, with six Gold Gloves — just like Torii Hunter now.

 

His name was Kirby Puckett, and he danced the free-agent dance, visiting the Philadelphia Phillies and Boston Red Sox.

 

But then Kirby and Tonya Puckett had dinner at Carl and Eloise Pohlad’s house.

 

And then, on Dec. 4, 1994, Christmas came early.

 

The Twins signed Puckett to a five-year, $30 million contract, the second-richest in baseball behind Cal Ripken’s five-year, $32.5 million deal.

 

Andy MacPhail, then the Twins general manager, stayed in Minnesota for the big news conference while his top lieutenants — Terry Ryan, Bill Smith and Larry Corrigan — went to the winter meetings in Louisville, Ky.

 

Upon arriving, Ryan said, “Now that Kirby’s back, we don’t have to spend time looking for a Gold Glove center fielder who will hit .350.”

 

If only it were that easy now.

 

The free-agent market has changed drastically. Soon, Hunter could be headed elsewhere, with significantly more cash.

 

Hunter rejected a three-year, $45 million offer from the Twins in August, and the sides haven’t spoken much since.

 

Minnesota has exclusive negotiating rights until Nov. 13, when other teams can begin making formal offers, but Hunter said he would like to see what’s out there before resuming talks with the Twins.

 

“It’s not necessarily goodbye to the Twins because I filed for free agency,” Hunter said. “I’m still watching to see what they do.”

 

Hunter said this goes way beyond his own contract. Because of their payroll restrictions, he’s concerned about the Twins’ ability to keep him while still fielding enough talent around him to win a World Series.

 

He wants at least a five-year deal. Industry insiders think his contract could reach $90 million.

 

Chicago White Sox GM Kenny Williams plans to meet with Hunter in person. The Texas Rangers and Houston Astros are among the other expected suitors, and news of more will probably surface soon, with the GM meetings under way in Orlando.

“It’s Torii’s right to be a free agent,” said Bert Blyleven, a Twins TV analyst. “He’s worked his tail off to get there. And the thing about Torii is he plays hurt. He’s just a gamer, as Puck was.

 

“The things (Hunter) does off the field, you can’t really put a monetary value on that, with his attitude and what he means to the guys in the clubhouse.”

 

Blyleven remembers the 1992 Puckett negotiations, how the center fielder sampled the market and how the Twins nearly matched his best offer.

 

“Hopefully, we can come around and match or come close to whatever else (Hunter) gets out there, and maybe let Torii decide then,” Blyleven said. “As long as the Twins are in the picture, I think that will help the fans, knowing the Twins gave their best effort.”

 

Prices have continued skyrocketing, however.

 

In December, the Toronto Blue Jays signed center fielder Vernon Wells to a seven-year, $126 million extension. In July, the Seattle Mariners gave center fielder Ichiro Suzuki a five-year, $90 million extension.

 

One can argue that both are better players. But unlike Hunter, neither reached free agency, so neither was the subject of a bidding war.

 

Hunter isn’t the only center fielder on this year’s market. That list also includes Andruw Jones, Aaron Rowand and Mike Cameron, though Cameron must serve a 25-game suspension to start next season.

 

Hunter’s agent, Larry Reynolds, said he doesn’t think the large supply of free-agent center fielders will lower the demand. He also doesn’t think age will work against Hunter, even though Jones and Rowand are younger.

 

“If a guy takes care of himself, then (age) shouldn’t be that big of an issue,” Reynolds said.

 

He pointed to Alex Rodriguez, who at age 32 is reportedly seeking a $350 million contract.

 

“They’re talking about 10 years for A-Rod and not even thinking twice,” Reynolds said. “He came out (of the draft) the same year (as Hunter), and they’re the same age. There are a number of guys who are playing until they’re 38-40 years old now, and even longer.”

 

Still, the recent track record for high-paid center fielders isn’t glowing. The New York Yankees signed Johnny Damon to a four-year, $52 million contract two years ago, when he was 32. This year, they moved him to left field.

 

Gary Matthews, 33, regressed this year after signing his five-year, $50 million deal with the Los Angeles Angels last November. Even Wells, who signed his deal at 28, struggled, batting .245 for the Blue Jays.

 

In 1992, Puckett was actually listed at age 31, but his birth year was later found to be 1960 instead of 1961. Nonetheless, he was a star. He had finished second in the voting for American League Most Valuable Player that season and won his sixth Gold Glove.

 

The Twins never regretted his last contract. Puckett didn’t win another Gold Glove and actually moved from center to right field in 1994. But in his final three seasons, he batted .308 with an average of 22 homers and 100 RBI before glaucoma cut short his career in 1996.

 

“People say 32 is old; it’s not old,” Hunter said. “I feel like I can beat anybody now. And when I’m 36 or 37, I could move to right field and still make plays.”

 

By retaining Puckett, the Twins kept the face of their franchise.

 

Hunter became the new face earlier this decade, though he now shares that mantle with Johan Santana, Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau.

 

How big of a public relations hit would the Twins take if they lost Hunter? That depends partly on their other moves, said Dave Mona, a former Twins beat writer for the Minneapolis Tribune and the chairman of Weber Shandwick, the region’s largest PR firm.

 

Another major question facing the Twins is whether they will trade Santana, a free agent after 2008.

 

“If they got nobody in return for Santana and lost Hunter, I think people would say, ‘I don’t get this. They’re going into the new ballpark (in 2010). They’ve got the additional revenue coming. These two moves seem inconsistent with where they’re doing.’ “

 

Mona, a longtime local radio host, said with no disrespect to Hunter that the impact of losing him wouldn’t be the same as losing Puckett.

 

“I think there’s an appreciation for Torii Hunter, but people in Minnesota are incredibly practical,” Mona said. “It’s part of that Scandinavian heritage. They’re going to say, ‘That’s a lot of money (to keep Hunter).’

 

“There will come a point where they’ll understand, but only if the Twins make additional moves.”

 

Smith, who was an assistant under MacPhail and then Ryan before becoming GM last month, said the new ballpark’s approval hasn’t added pressure to keep Hunter.

 

“I think our No. 1 goal is to keep this team competitive in the short term and in the long term,” he said. “Sometimes you have to compromise one to get the other.”

 

While continuing to praise Hunter, Smith picked his words carefully this past week.

 

“He’s been a tremendous part of this organization,” Smith said. “I don’t want to speak in the past tense because I still hope he stays in this organization.”

 

Moments later, Smith added: “He was a big part of the renaissance of this franchise, and I will always respect him for that.”

[fathom]

Levine reported today the Sox will make the bigger offer in franchise history, likely something around 5 years, 80 million for Hunter as soon as they're allowed to talk contracts. He's far and away the #1 guy on their list, and he thinks Hunter will be a Sox outfielder next year.

[GreatScott82]

I heard that too. If the Sox offer 5 years at 15 mill/season, there is no doubt in my mind he wouldn't accept. If what Bruce is saying is true.. start buying your Hunter jerseys..we just may have a gold glover hunting down balls in CF next year.

[hitlesswonder]

Levine reported today the Sox will make the bigger offer in franchise history, likely something around 5 years, 80 million for Hunter as soon as they're allowed to talk contracts. He's far and away the #1 guy on their list, and he thinks Hunter will be a Sox outfielder next year.

 

Wow, I think that will be a very bad signing. I think KW is entranced by the guy that ran over Burke and wants that aggression on his team. Nevermind the declining defensive skills, low OBP, strikeouts, the fact that Hunter will have to move to a corner soon and doesn't have the bat for it.

 

Really, the worst mistake KW could make this offseason is adding albatross contracts to the team, and it looks like he's going to do that. Plus, this means probably means either Shannon Stewart or Owens in LF or Eckstein at SS so the Sox have a leadoff man. I think the Sox need some new talent evaluators.

[nitetrain8601]

Shannon Stewart in LF wouldn't be so bad.

[Gregory Pratt]

Levine reported today the Sox will make the bigger offer in franchise history, likely something around 5 years, 80 million for Hunter as soon as they're allowed to talk contracts. He's far and away the #1 guy on their list, and he thinks Hunter will be a Sox outfielder next year.

 

 

I will wait and see what we do but I really don't like that.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[RockRaines]

 

I will wait and see what we do but I really don't like that.

And I agree with you. im still wondering where we are going to find a lead off hitter? Stewart? What the hell are we going to do. With this happening our lineup sits at this:

 

1. Richar 2B

2. Fields LF

3. Thome Dh

4. Konerko 1B

5. Dye RF

6. Hunter CF

7. Crede 3B

8 AJP C

9 Uribe SS

[Gregory Pratt]

And I agree with you. im still wondering where we are going to find a lead off hitter? Stewart? What the hell are we going to do. With this happening our lineup sits at this:

 

1. Richar 2B

2. Fields LF

3. Thome Dh

4. Konerko 1B

5. Dye RF

6. Hunter CF

7. Crede 3B

8 AJP C

9 Uribe SS

 

Sex.

 

PS: I just don't like the years for Hunter, either.

[RockRaines]

Sex.

 

PS: I just don't like the years for Hunter, either.

Considering hes 32, gross.

 

That lineup will strike out a bazillion times.

[Gregory Pratt]

Considering hes 32, gross.

 

That lineup will strike out a bazillion times.

 

And pop the first pitch up a bazillion times, too.

[Steve9347]

Levine just stated that the White Sox are going to throw everything economically possible at Torii Hunter.

[RockRaines]

Levine just stated that the White Sox are going to throw everything economically possible at Torii Hunter.

Well, ok then. We better shed Contreras, Garland, etc