Bonds won't enter Hall

[Linnwood]

If it is such a big deal, why don't they just display two helmets, one from when he was on the Pirates, and one from when he got the record, so everyone can actually see how much his head has grown during that time (natural growth of course).

 

I would love to see that on display.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Linnwood

[knightni]

I seem to have forgotten when he got caught using steroids...

 

Here...

 

Let me remind you.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...12/03/BALCO.TMP

 

 

 

 

What Bonds told BALCO grand jury

Giants star told grand jury he used clear substance, cream provided by trainer Greg Anderson but believed they were flaxseed oil and arthritis balm

Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada, Chronicle Staff Writers

 

Friday, December 3, 2004

 

 

Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids, The Chronicle has learned.

 

Federal prosecutors charge that the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative, known as BALCO, distributed undetectable steroids to elite athletes in the form of a clear substance that was taken orally and a cream that was rubbed onto the body.

 

Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle.

 

Federal prosecutors confronted Bonds during his testimony on Dec. 4, 2003, with documents indicating he had used steroids and human growth hormone during a three-year assault on baseball's home run record, but the Giants star denied the allegations.

 

During the three-hour proceeding, two prosecutors presented Bonds with documents that allegedly detailed his use of a long list of drugs: human growth hormone, Depo-Testosterone, undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," insulin and Clomid, a drug for female infertility sometimes used to enhance the effect of testosterone.

 

The documents, many with Bonds' name on them, are dated from 2001 through 2003. They include a laboratory test result that could reflect steroid use and what appeared to be schedules of drug use with billing information, prosecutors told the grand jury.

 

In a September 2003 raid on Anderson's Burlingame home, federal investigators seized documents they said showed Bonds was using banned drugs, according to court records. Anderson was indicted in February on charges of money laundering and conspiracy to distribute steroids in the BALCO case.

 

Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, said he was upset, though not entirely surprised, his client's secret testimony had been revealed. He said he had no proof but suspected the government was the source of the leak, insisting it had been out to get Bonds from the beginning.

 

"My view has always been this case has been the U.S. vs. Bonds, and I think the government has moved in certain ways in a concerted effort to indict my client," Rains said. "And I think their failure to indict him has resulted in their attempts to smear him publicly."

 

Attorney Anna Ling, who along with J. Tony Serra represents Anderson, said a court order precluded her from commenting on grand jury testimony.

 

"But it's been our position from day one that Mr. Anderson did not knowingly do anything illegal," Ling said. "If he had, he wouldn't have ever been involved. He did not knowingly provide any illegal substances to anyone."

 

According to the transcript, two prosecutors queried Bonds closely about the documents, at times going over them line by line while peppering him with questions.

 

But Bonds said he had no knowledge of the doping calendars and other records that indicated he had used banned drugs. He said he had never paid Anderson for steroids and had never knowingly used them.

 

And he said he was confident that his trainer hadn't slipped him banned drugs without his knowledge, saying Anderson "wouldn't jeopardize our friendship" by doing that.

 

"Greg and I are friends," Bonds told the grand jury. "I never paid Greg for anything. ... You're going to bring up documents and more documents. I have never seen anything written by Greg Anderson on a piece of paper."

 

Bonds testified he had never discussed steroids with his trainer -- not even after federal agents kicked in Anderson's door to serve their search warrant. That was out of respect for Anderson's privacy, Bonds said.

 

To the prosecutors, the substances Bonds said he was using sounded like "the cream" and "the clear," two steroids designed to be undetectable in laboratory testing that Victor Conte, founder of BALCO, is accused of marketing to elite athletes, sometimes with Anderson as middleman.

 

Bonds said that as far as he knew, Anderson had given him only legal products to treat the arthritis and fatigue that afflicted him, especially when playing a day game after a night game. The trainer brought the products into the Giants' clubhouse at Pac Bell Park "once a homestand," Bonds said, and that's where he used them.

 

"I never asked Greg" about what the products contained, Bonds testified. "When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.'

 

"It was in the ballpark ... in front of everybody. I mean, all the reporters, my teammates. I mean, they all saw it. I didn't hide it."

 

The transcript shows that before he testified, Bonds was told he would not be prosecuted for any crimes he admitted as long as he told the truth to the grand jury. But if he lied under oath, the prosecutors warned, he could face prosecution for perjury. It is illegal to obtain steroids and human growth hormone without a doctor's prescription.

 

Faced with the same warning and similar evidence, five other baseball players who were summoned to San Francisco to testify last year confessed to the grand jury that they had used performance-enhancing drugs provided by Anderson.

 

One week after Bonds testified, New York Yankees first baseman Jason Giambi and his brother Jeremy, both former Oakland A's, described in detail how they had injected themselves with performance-enhancing drugs. The Giambis testified they were drawn to Anderson because of Bonds' success.

 

Other players who admitted their use of performance-enhancing drugs were former Giants Armando Rios, Benito Santiago and Bobby Estalella. The players said they had come to know Anderson because he was Bonds' trainer.

 

A sixth witness, Yankees outfielder Gary Sheffield, testified that while he trained with Bonds in the Bay Area before the 2002 baseball season, Bonds had arranged for him to receive "the cream," "the clear" and "red beans," which the prosecutors identified as steroid pills manufactured in Mexico.

 

Sheffield said he had never been told that the substances were steroids. Bonds also was using "the cream" and "the clear," Sheffield said.

 

"Nothing was between me and Greg," Sheffield testified. "Barry pretty much controlled everything. ... It was basically Barry (saying), 'Trust me. Do what I do.'

 

"... I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking. I didn't see him taking those red beans, but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here."

 

Attorneys for Sheffield and Santiago expressed dismay that the secrecy of the grand jury had been violated.

 

Santiago's attorney, David Cornwell, also said, "If any performance-enhancing drugs were ingested, they were ingested unknowingly."

 

Rios' attorney, Chris Cannon, dismissed the report as "ancient history."

 

Estalella could not be reached for comment.

 

Since the BALCO scandal erupted, Bonds has insisted he never used banned drugs. But in statements they later denied making, both Conte and BALCO Vice President James Valente, also indicted, told investigators that Anderson was supplying steroids to Bonds, court records show.

 

In addition, The Chronicle has reported that in a secretly recorded conversation, Anderson said Bonds had used an "undetectable" performance-enhancing drug during the 2003 season.

 

Bonds hit 73 home runs in 2001, breaking one of baseball's most storied records. He hit his 703rd home run this past season and is expected to pass Babe Ruth's mark of 714 next year, then zero in on Hank Aaron's all-time record of 755 in 2006. Last month, at age 40, Bonds won his fourth consecutive National League Most Valuable Player award and the seventh of his career, more than any other player.

 

Anderson has been Bonds' trainer throughout his assault on the home run record. In a ceremony at Pac Bell Park in 2001 after he broke Mark McGwire's record for home runs in a season, Bonds publicly thanked Anderson for his help.

 

In his grand jury testimony, Bonds described Anderson as a boyhood friend with whom he reconnected in 1998, when Anderson was working as a personal trainer on the Peninsula.

 

"Greg is a weightlifting trainer," Bonds said. "And we're friends, grew up together. (I) go over there and see what he does. I liked his philosophy, and we started working out together."

 

Soon, Bonds said, he decided to bring on Anderson to replace Raymond Farris, who at the time was supervising his workouts.

 

"I was getting rugged with my other trainer, you know, doing the same thing over and over," Bonds said. "... My other trainer was like, you do three sets of legs, three sets of this, three -- you know.

 

"And Greg is more -- 16 sets of chest, more biceps, to really maximize and expand your muscle. And I liked that philosophy."

 

The ballplayer and the trainer began working out at a gym near BALCO, Bonds said. He said Anderson had also begun providing him with "vitamin and protein shakes."

 

In 2000 or 2001, Bonds said, Anderson persuaded him to undergo blood and urine testing at BALCO as part of a program touted by Conte to market his legal nutritional supplement, ZMA. Bonds said he already was interested in nutrition issues, testifying that he employed both a cook and a "nutritionist at Stanford."

 

Anderson "wanted to do a blood test to try to regulate your levels, if you're lacking in zinc or magnesium," Bonds said. "... The blood test at BALCO was just the thing to figure out what you're deficient in. ... I just thought it was a neat idea."

 

Bonds said he had his personal doctor come to his house and draw the blood for the testing.

 

Eventually, he said, Anderson began providing him with an array of supplements: "multivitamin to vitamin E to omega 3s to, you know, ZMA - the ZMA that BALCO had - to liver pills to oxygen ...

 

"But I had no doubt what he was giving me, because we were friends."

 

Bonds said he had met Conte, BALCO's president, two or three times but never paid for the nutritional supplements.

 

Instead, he said, he "did an ad" for BALCO in a muscle magazine, a reference to a photo shoot and feature in Muscle & Fitness that quoted Bonds effusively endorsing Conte's ZMA nutritional supplement product.

 

Bonds said he had begun using the cream and the clear substance at a time when he was aching with arthritis and was distraught over the terminal illness of his father, former Giants All-Star Bobby Bonds, who died Aug. 23, 2003.

 

"I have bad arthritis. I've played 18 years, bad knees, surgeries and so on," Bonds testified, adding that he wanted a product that would "take the arthritis pain away that I feel in the mornings when it's super cold ...

 

"I was battling with the problems with my father and the -- just the lack of sleep, lack of everything."

 

But Bonds said he got little help from Anderson's products.

 

"And I was like, to me, it didn't even work," he told the grand jury. "You know me, I'm 39 years old. I'm dealing with pain. All I want is the pain relief, you know? And you know, to recover, you know, night games to day games. That's it.

 

"And I didn't think the stuff worked. I was like, 'Dude, whatever,' but he's my friend."

 

Eventually, Bonds said he had stopped using the products, telling the grand jury, "If it's a steroid, it's not working." Bonds insisted he had never paid Anderson for drugs or supplements, but he acknowledged paying him $15,000 in 2003 for weight training.

 

"I paid him in cash," Bonds said. "I make $17 million."

 

In answers that sometimes rambled, Bonds sought to vouch for his trainer as a good and honest person who would never traffic in illegal drugs.

 

"Greg is a good guy, you know, this kid is a great kid. He has a child," Bonds said. At another point, he told the grand jury:

 

"Greg has nothing, man. ... Guy lives in his car half the time. He lives with his girlfriend, rents a room so he can be with his kid, you know?

 

"... This is the same guy that goes over to our friend's mom's house and massages her leg because she has cancer, and she swells up every night for months. Spends time next to my dad, rubbing his feet every night."

 

Bonds told the grand jurors that he had given Anderson a $20,000 bonus and bought him a ring after the 73-home run season. He also bought the trainer a ring to commemorate the Giants' 2002 World Series appearance. When a juror asked why the wealthy ballplayer hadn't bought "a mansion" for his trainer to live in, Bonds answered:

 

"One, I'm black, and I'm keeping my money. And there's not too many rich black people in this world. There's more wealthy Asian people and Caucasian and white. And I ain't giving my money up."

 

Prosecutor Jeff Nedrow pressed Bonds about the clear liquid Anderson provided.

 

"Did he ever tell you it was a molecularly or chemically altered steroid? Did Greg ever tell you anything like that?"

 

"No, because my other trainer, who is 50 years old, Harvey, was taking the same stuff," Bonds replied. "And he said it's flaxseed oil."

 

Tim Montgomery, a world-class sprinter, had earlier told the grand jury that Conte used flaxseed oil containers when sending "the clear" to athletes at overseas track meets.

 

For much of Bonds' testimony, Nedrow and Assistant U.S. Attorney Ross Nadel methodically questioned him about documents and evidence seized in the probe. Bonds said he had few insights.

 

The prosecutors queried Bonds about calendars -- taken in a raid on Anderson's home -- that contained his name and notes about performance-enhancing drugs. He replied, "I've never had a calendar with him, never had anything."

 

Bonds said he couldn't explain a calendar page with the name "Barry" on it, nor a note indicating an invoice of $450 for blood tests.

 

Likewise, Bonds said he couldn't translate a document that had the notation "! G !" along with "one box off season" and "two box season, $1,500."

 

The prosecutors thought it referred to Bonds' payments for boxes of human growth hormone, but Bonds said, "I don't know what G is."

 

Asked about a reference to a $450 payment for a bottle of the injectable steroid Depo-Testosterone, Bonds replied, "I have never seen this bottle or any bottle pertaining that says Depo-Testosterone." He also denied ever injecting himself with any drug.

 

Other documents suggested Bonds was using Clomid, the fertility drug that enhances the effect of testosterone; modafinil, an anti-narcolepsy drug used as a stimulant; and the steroid trenbolone.

 

"I've never heard of it," Bonds replied to questions about each drug.

 

Asked about the endurance-boosting agent known as EPO, Bonds said, "I couldn't even pronounce it."

 

Queried about insulin, which also can have a steroid-like effect, Bonds said, "Insulin? I'm not a diabetic."

 

Bonds also was quizzed about a document that said, "Barry 12-2-02, T, 1 cc G - pee."

 

A prosecutor asked, "Does that correspond to you getting, you know, growth hormones or testosterone or giving a urine test or anything of those things that you can recall from Mr. Anderson."

 

"T could mean anything," Bonds replied. "G could mean anything. And pee could probably mean anything."

 

Bonds said he had no knowledge of paperwork indicating that starting in 2001, BALCO had been screening his blood not just for nutritional deficiencies but for steroids.

 

"Do you know why BALCO would have been testing for your testosterone level?" he was asked.

 

"I have no idea," Bonds replied.

 

"Do you know why your testosterone level would have been -- according to the report -- higher than the level, the normal range indicated for males 29 to 49 years old?"

 

"I don't understand this piece of paper," Bonds replied.

 

Elevated testosterone levels can indicate steroid use, according to medical experts.

 

Rains, Bonds' attorney, said every other athlete called to testify in the case had been provided the opportunity to study the documents beforehand to assist the government in making its case; but Rains said the prosecutors had backed out on a similar deal with Bonds.

 

"That shows you what the government's attempt was and what their effort was," Rains said. "But it didn't work. One, because Barry testified truthfully, and they know it. And two, because the documents they showed him are so fraught with irregularities of unproven quality and character that they can't be used to secure an indictment (for perjury)."

 

Bonds said he hadn't told the Giants staff what he was doing with Anderson because he didn't trust them.

 

"No way ... we don't trust the ball team," Bonds said. "We don't trust baseball. ... Believe me, it's a business. I don't trust their doctors or nothing."

 

That lack of trust also led Bonds to ask Anderson to have him tested for steroids in 2003. Major League Baseball had just begun testing players for steroids, and Bonds said he was suspicious about it.

 

"We got tested two times this season unannounced," Bonds said. "I don't trust baseball. They say it's anonymous, but then they put your name on it. So I don't trust baseball. So I asked Greg ... 'I want to know what baseball's doing behind our backs.'

 

"I never saw the papers, never saw the results. Greg just said, 'You're negative.' "

 

At times, Bonds bantered with prosecutors and grand jurors.

 

Early on, a prosecutor asked whether Bonds had been confused by an explanation of how the hearing would be conducted.

 

"Yes -- you are confusing," Bonds said. Turning to the grand jurors, the outfielder said, "Is he confusing to you guys? I'm glad it's not me."

 

At other times, Bonds provided answers that weren't necessarily responsive to questions but that still contained personal insights about baseball's single-season home run king.

 

Asked whether he had ever discussed the BALCO probe with Anderson, Bonds said, "The only thing I asked Greg, 'What's it like getting your door blown down. Dude, I never seen anything like that except on TV.' That's about as far as we went on it."

 

Then, in an attempt to explain why he wasn't more inquisitive, Bonds said he had learned privacy concerns growing up as the son of a Giants All-Star.

 

"I was a celebrity child ... with a famous father," he said. "I just don't get into other people's business because of my father's situation, see."

 

Asked to name his greatest achievement, Bonds seemed to surprise a prosecutor expecting him to name the home run record.

 

The greatest achievement, Bonds said, was "when I was drafted in 1985" to play professional baseball. "There's no better achievement than fulfilling your goal."

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Baseball's steroids ban

Major League Baseball began steroid testing in 2003 under terms of an agreement with the Major League Baseball Players Association. Critics -- including Commissioner Bud Selig -- say the program is too weak to deter drug cheats, but the players' association has balked at allowing the owners to toughen it unilaterally. Among the program's provisions:

 

Drugs tested for: Steroids only.

 

When tests occur: In season only.

 

Players tested: All players were tested in 2003 for the first time as a survey. Mandatory random testing began in 2004.

 

Test frequency: A player can be tested only once per season, with one follow-up one week later.

 

Penalties for violations: Starting in 2004, treatment program (first offense), suspensions ranging from 15 days to one year (subsequent offenses).

 

 

[Texsox]

Everytime I read the thread title I keep thinking baseball grew some stones.

[Soxbadger]

Jackie,

 

Interesting you point out the leaker broke the law, not the journalists.

 

Much like the Dr. broke the law illegally giving Bonds medication, versus Bonds broke the law unknowingly using the medication.

 

"When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.'

 

Now lets say I go to the Dr., he proscribes me Amoxicillin, the drugs he gives me turn out to be PCP.

 

Who is at fault, the Dr, or the patient?

 

This is basic stuff, so I didnt think I needed to spell it out.

 

Not one person has ever said Bonds knowingly took it, the Dr said the same thing as Bonds.

 

Also, if you are going to say there is a law, cite it. I want the law, so I can research it, find the case law about it, and make sure that you are actually giving me good precedent. Lawyers are not expected to know every single law, they are expected provide the common courtesy of a cite. So if you have a law, find it, cite it, and let me see it.

 

Texsox,

 

Where have I said Bonds didnt do it?

 

All I have asked is why can pitchers blatantly cheat, Gaylord Perry, but Bonds is held to some different standard?

 

Bonds arguably didnt knowingly cheat, I can say with 100% certainty that Gaylord Perry knew he was throwing a spit ball.

 

Yet Bonds is the bad guy.

 

"I'd always have it (grease( in at least two places, in case the umpires would ask me to wipe one off. I never wanted to be caught out there with anything though, it wouldn't be professional."

 

Source: Me and the Spitter (Gaylord Perry)

 

So please if you are going to argue, at least keep it relevant.

 

Ive never said that Bonds didnt do it, merely that:

 

1) Baseball has never caught him. And its pretty unfair to hold Grand jury testimony against him that was illegally obtained. Imagine if every baseball player had to talk about cheating under oath, and were told that none of this would ever be leaked, and that if you testify you are helping the fed, etc etc. Only to find out all of their testimony was leaked. How many of your heroes do you think have taken greenies, or roids, or other performance enhancers? Equal is equal, and baseball has a test for cheaters. Bonds never failed baseballs test.

 

2) Plenty of other baseball players have cheated as badly or worse than Bonds, and yet their records are not tarnished by public perception.

 

 

 

[Texsox]

Now lets say I go to the Dr., he proscribes me Amoxicillin, the drugs he gives me turn out to be PCP.

 

If you double in size and don't question the drug, it's your fault. Unless your theory is Bonds is that stupid. Do you really believe a professional athlete, who knew he could be tested, just takes anything without checking what it is? And this wasn't even from a Doctor, it was from his trainer.

 

So as long as other people cheat, it's ok? Then why have a rule book?

 

He did it, everyone knows it. And if someone offers to make you a really cool set of new clothes, have a little kid check it out first, you seem really gullible.

 

This is not a court of law, no one is trying to send him to jail. But everyone knows he used steroids, they do not have to ignore it like if they were on a jury. Different standards.

[Soxbadger]

Well why couldnt bonds believe that he was doubling in size due to all the strength and weight programs?

 

Why would he think rubbing a cream on his body would be doubling his size?

 

And you are right, I thought that Anderson was a Dr/trainer (most trainers have PHD's but it does not seem Anderson does).

 

I still think that you have to hold Bonds to the same standard as everyone else, and that is "knowingly".

 

Did Bonds "knowingly" cheat.

 

Not did he have a suspicion, not did he put the pieces together:

 

But when he took the cream and the clear, did he know it was steroids.

 

If he did, then he is on the same page as Gaylord Perry. He cheated, did it knowingly, and the question is;

 

Why is Barry less accepted than Gaylord?

 

My guess is personality.

 

If Bonds was a happy go lucky guy, no one cares that he cheated. But Bonds is perceived as a dick, and no one wants a dick to succeed.

 

 

[Texsox]

Because as a society we have a stronger view about drugs. Because we've become less tolerant, rather than more tolerant since Perry. Because fans realized that cheating is wrong.

 

Since you like to compare, why not compare Bonds to someone who didn't cheat? Is it fair to those players who played by the rules?

 

Are you saying we should now accept all cheating? When do we draw the line?

 

I believe Bonds should take responsibility for what he uses. As should all athletes. If you allow them to just say, well the trainer told me to take this, then anyone can take anything at it would be allowed. There would be nothing that is banned.

[Soxbadger]

Im saying that if you are going to use federal grand jury testimony to convict Bonds, then every baseball player needs to be brought before a federal grand jury, told that they do not have immunity, and if they fail to answer the question truthfully will be held in contempt.

 

Every player that answers that they did use illegal drugs will be given the same treatment as Bonds.

 

If thats how they do it, then Im fine with it.

 

But as it is now, Bonds was never caught by MLB. Why is he held to a different standard?

 

Fair is fair, and Bonds is being convicted by testimony unfairly obtained.

 

I dont agree with cheating, I just dont believe that you can let every other player off and only holds Bonds accountable.

[Texsox]

Im saying that if you are going to use federal grand jury testimony to convict Bonds, then every baseball player needs to be brought before a federal grand jury, told that they do not have immunity, and if they fail to answer the question truthfully will be held in contempt.

 

Every player that answers that they did use illegal drugs will be given the same treatment as Bonds.

 

If thats how they do it, then Im fine with it.

 

But as it is now, Bonds was never caught by MLB. Why is he held to a different standard?

 

Fair is fair, and Bonds is being convicted by testimony unfairly obtained.

 

I dont agree with cheating, I just dont believe that you can let every other player off and only holds Bonds accountable.

 

Bonds is not being convicted?? Did he serve a suspension? Was he banned from baseball?

Fans are saying he cheated, and all evidence points that way.

 

So again, if another player was let off, we should throw away the rules book? If the player didn't know what he took, he should be let off?

 

You say you don't agree with cheating, yet you try every way to defend Bonds and find reasons why everyone should be allowed to cheat. The courts have to ignore Bonds confession, fans do not.

 

Let every player off? Guys have been, and are being suspended, for using. Bonds is allowed to keep playing because he was not caught in a a manner that allows him to be punished. The players after him are getting caught and are being punished. But Bonds is allowed to keep playing. So you tell me, why is he being treated so much better?

[jackie hayes]

Jackie,

 

Interesting you point out the leaker broke the law, not the journalists.

 

Much like the Dr. broke the law illegally giving Bonds medication, versus Bonds broke the law unknowingly using the medication.

Now lets say I go to the Dr., he proscribes me Amoxicillin, the drugs he gives me turn out to be PCP.

 

Who is at fault, the Dr, or the patient?

 

This is basic stuff, so I didnt think I needed to spell it out.

 

Not one person has ever said Bonds knowingly took it, the Dr said the same thing as Bonds.

 

Also, if you are going to say there is a law, cite it. I want the law, so I can research it, find the case law about it, and make sure that you are actually giving me good precedent. Lawyers are not expected to know every single law, they are expected provide the common courtesy of a cite. So if you have a law, find it, cite it, and let me see it.

 

Texsox,

 

Where have I said Bonds didnt do it?

 

All I have asked is why can pitchers blatantly cheat, Gaylord Perry, but Bonds is held to some different standard?

 

Bonds arguably didnt knowingly cheat, I can say with 100% certainty that Gaylord Perry knew he was throwing a spit ball.

 

Yet Bonds is the bad guy.

Source: Me and the Spitter (Gaylord Perry)

 

So please if you are going to argue, at least keep it relevant.

 

Ive never said that Bonds didnt do it, merely that:

 

1) Baseball has never caught him. And its pretty unfair to hold Grand jury testimony against him that was illegally obtained. Imagine if every baseball player had to talk about cheating under oath, and were told that none of this would ever be leaked, and that if you testify you are helping the fed, etc etc. Only to find out all of their testimony was leaked. How many of your heroes do you think have taken greenies, or roids, or other performance enhancers? Equal is equal, and baseball has a test for cheaters. Bonds never failed baseballs test.

 

2) Plenty of other baseball players have cheated as badly or worse than Bonds, and yet their records are not tarnished by public perception.

Where did I say Bonds should be prosecuted? I was replying to your post, in which you said the substances were not illegal. Don't try to change the subject.

 

You said the journalists broke the law by using leaked information (without a citation). You said that the cream and the clear were not illegal (without a citation). If you want cites, maybe you should provide them when you make a statement about the law. At the very least, avoid making claims when you don't know the relevant laws.

 

In terms of the reporters, it's a standard interpretation (ie, basic stuff) of the first amendment. While it is illegal to leak information, it's no more illegal to publish it, once leaked, than it is for us to discuss the information here. It falls under the "free flow of information" guarantee of the first amendment mentioned in Branzenburg v Hayes. Do you have a cite, or even an example of a reporter successfully prosecuted for using a leak unrelated to national security? (Mind you, NOT for refusing to reveal the source of the leak, but for publishing the leaked information.)

 

The relevant steroid law is the Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990, which classified anabolic steroids as a Schedule III controlled substance. The relevant passage:

© DEFINITION OF ANABOLIC STEROID- Section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802) is amended by adding at the end the following:

 

`(41) The term `anabolic steroid' means any drug or hormonal substance that promotes muscle growth in a manner pharmacologically similar to testosterone, and includes--

`(A) Boldenone.

`(B) Chlorotestosterone.

`© Clostebol.

`(D) Dehydrochlormethyltestosterone.

`(E) Dihydrotestosterone.

`(F) Drostanolone.

`(G) Ethylestrenol.

`(H) Fluoxymesterone.

`(I) Mesterolone.

`(J) Methandienone.

`(K) Methandranone.

`(L) Methandriol.

`(M) Methandrostenolone.

`(N) Methyltestosterone.

`(O) Mibolerone.

`(P) Nandrolone.

`(Q) Norethandrolone.

`® Oxandrolone.

`(S) Oxymesterone.

`(T) Oxymetholone.

`(U) Stanolone.

`(V) Stanozolol.

`(W) Testolactone.

`(X) Testosterone.

`(Y) Trenbolone; and

`(Z) any salt, ester, or isomer of a drug or substance described or listed in this paragraph, if that salt, ester, or isomer promotes muscle growth.'.

 

The cream consists of testosterone, with epitestosterone, and is therefore directly mentioned by (X). The clear is tetrahydrogestrinone, which has since been added to the list (in 2004), but is nonetheless covered by (Z). It was immediately recognized by the FDA as a steroid.

[Soxbadger]

Jackie,

 

You are right, what the reporters did is technically legal. Even though it undermines the entire grand jury system, our society favors the rights of the press over the rights of the defendant.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/15/politics/15jackson.html

 

My disgust for them does some times jade the reality of the law. Even though what they did is tantamount to a crime, since they are journalists, they are protected by the first amendment. So as long as they did not obtain the evidence illegally, they can do whatever they want. I disagree with this, because all of the evidence has to be obtained illegally, as it is illegal to talk about a grand jury proceeding while it's under seal, but its irrelevant, the law is the law, and they did not break it.

 

You cited 21 usc 802, note for you to be guilty:

 

§ 844. Penalties for simple possession

(a) Unlawful acts; penalties

It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to possess a controlled substance unless such substance was obtained directly, or pursuant to a valid prescription or order, from a practitioner, while acting in the course of his professional practice, or except as otherwise authorized by this subchapter or subchapter II of this chapter.

 

Knowingly or intentionally (and then it states the exact exemption of if it was prescribed by a practitioner)

 

So Bonds did not violate federal law, because he did not knowingly take an illegal substance. Knowledge is a requirement, you can read the grand jury transcript where he said he "didnt know".

 

So yes I misspoke on the reporters.

 

I feel what they did is no better than the person who leaked it, and it should be illegal, but as of this time it is not. I more meant that they aided in the publishing of illegally obtained transcripts, but that was not how i worded it.

[Texsox]

But bottom line, he did use steroids, and his accomplishments should reflect that, same as all the other cheaters.

[Soxbadger]

And im fine with that.

 

If every player who gets caught has all of their stuff asterisked, im fine. I can understand that.

 

But why is 1 player being singled out?

 

Shouldnt players like Gaylord have all of their stuff asterisked? Or is it because the HOF is a different entity that it just doesnt matter?

 

I think its all stupid. A large portion of baseball players cheat, its a game, its not meant to be taken seriously. And the whole steroid thing is much deeper than just players, but no one is going to hold owners accountable.

[Texsox]

He is being singled out because he made a statement that he would not be in the hall if they displayed the ball. So far he is the only player who has made a statement like that.

[Soxbadger]

No, as in he is being singled out as some one that needs to be branded.

 

No one is going around trying to put asterisks on Gaylord's memorabilia like Ecko did to Bonds.

 

And I assume if some one did that to another player, that player may not want to be in the HOF either.

[Texsox]

The person that bought the ball decided, after accepting internet voting, to do that. Not MLB.

 

Since everyone cheats, why is Bonds so upset about this? He should be proud that unlike Perry, he did not get "caught". Hail Barry, the best cheater in baseball. Has one of the greatest records and never was caught. Something to be proud of and for every athlete to look up to and emulate.

[Soxbadger]

I dont know why Barry does what he does.

 

If I was Barry my answer would be:

 

So what.

 

I think its hilarious this holier than thou attitude, I feel that everyone cheats. Small ways, big ways, every way in between. Thats life.

 

But I think Barry wants to believe that he broke the record with out cheating, and thats where the whole thing falls apart.

 

People like Belichek, they are happy they cheated, they are glad with the results. Bonds wants to have his cake and eat it too.

[NorthSideSox72]

I dont know why Barry does what he does.

 

If I was Barry my answer would be:

 

So what.

 

I think its hilarious this holier than thou attitude, I feel that everyone cheats. Small ways, big ways, every way in between. Thats life.

 

But I think Barry wants to believe that he broke the record with out cheating, and thats where the whole thing falls apart.

 

People like Belichek, they are happy they cheated, they are glad with the results. Bonds wants to have his cake and eat it too.

I have to say it kind of surprises me to hear an attorney take the "everyone else is doing it" route. Kind of lame, ya? 5 cars go through a red light, the guy in the shiniest sports car might be the one most likely to get pulled over, but does that mean he's some kind of victim?

 

And your other argument, that Bonds didn't know what the cream and the clear were, is bogus legally as well. Breaking the law is breaking the law, regardless of whether or not you are aware of the law or that you were breaking it. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.

 

Bond has cheated, and done it in a way that happens to be not only against baseball's rules but against the laws of the country. He has furthermore acted like an asshole, more so even than the other assholes around him, which just makes him that much more of a target. He cheated in such a way that officiating crews in the game had no control over. And of course, he broke one of professional sports' most treasured records. Basically, he was the king jerk among jerks.

 

So I don't feel too bad that he happens to be the target of more ire than other cheaters.

 

[jackie hayes]

Jackie,

 

You are right, what the reporters did is technically legal. Even though it undermines the entire grand jury system, our society favors the rights of the press over the rights of the defendant.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/15/politics/15jackson.html

 

My disgust for them does some times jade the reality of the law. Even though what they did is tantamount to a crime, since they are journalists, they are protected by the first amendment. So as long as they did not obtain the evidence illegally, they can do whatever they want. I disagree with this, because all of the evidence has to be obtained illegally, as it is illegal to talk about a grand jury proceeding while it's under seal, but its irrelevant, the law is the law, and they did not break it.

 

You cited 21 usc 802, note for you to be guilty:

Knowingly or intentionally (and then it states the exact exemption of if it was prescribed by a practitioner)

 

So Bonds did not violate federal law, because he did not knowingly take an illegal substance. Knowledge is a requirement, you can read the grand jury transcript where he said he "didnt know".

 

So yes I misspoke on the reporters.

 

I feel what they did is no better than the person who leaked it, and it should be illegal, but as of this time it is not. I more meant that they aided in the publishing of illegally obtained transcripts, but that was not how i worded it.

You stated that the cream and the clear violated no laws, not that Bonds violated no laws. I was pointing out that these are "illegal" -- in the sense that Bonds' possession implies that someone broke the law. Personally, I find his claim of ignorance ridiculous, but I never said that there's enough evidence to convict him of anything.

[Soxbadger]

Northside,

 

Why is that a surprise?

 

That I am a human and understand human philosophy. I went to law school, Id say on any given exam 50%+ did some form of cheating. Whether it was writing something in a statute book that they shouldnt have, looking at some one elses exam to get an answer, etc, etc. People cheat in court every day, the lawyer next door comes over and post marks envelopes, other attorneys teach their clients how to come within a hair of perjury, in the end, you hold yourself to your own standards.

 

Baseball is a game, its played for fun, at the end of the day thats all it is, entertainment.

 

As to my argument, the law clearly disagrees. Just because you say "ignorance of the law" does not mean that has any relevance to the matter at hand. The statute clearly says knowingly, almost every crime in US law requires knowledge.

 

Now here is where the argument "ignorance of the law is no excuse" works:

 

I smoke Marijuana, I believe marijuana is legal, in fact marijuana is legal. I can not argue, I thought it was legal therefore I am innocent.

 

Hence "ignorance of the law is no excuse"

 

On the other hand, the argument:

 

I took pill X given to me by my trainer. My trainer told me that the pill was flaxseed oil. Flaxseed oil is legal under US laws. Unknown to the defendant, pill X turned out to be PCP. The prosecutor would have to prove that when they took the drug they knew it was illegal.

 

If I dose my boss with LSD, they cant convict him for taking LSD, he had no fault, no criminal mind, etc etc.

 

Once again, Bonds may or may not have broken the laws of the US. The US prosecutors are not going after him, so I will defer to their expertise that Bonds did not knowingly take steroids.

 

He broke the rules of baseball, like many other before him.

 

The difference is as you stated, he broke a treasured record. Its not like they didnt try and asterisk Maris either.

 

Jackie,

 

I meant that Bonds violated no laws. Yes I know my wording as not clear, but I was going off of "knowingly" used, which is the standard. It wasnt really the crux of the point.

 

It was more to compare:

 

A) Simple possession violation.

 

B) Revealing grand jury testimony.

 

In my opinion B is worse than A, but thats just opinion.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Soxbadger

[Texsox]

Where you points fall apart is this:

 

Bonds was is a skilled athlete. He spent his life as an athlete. From a young age he had been working out and has a greater than average understanding if his body and how it responds to workouts. Most people would find it hard to believe he did not noticed the change while taking these substances. Same thing if I gave you what I said was a regular cigarette and you got high. If I told you this was a regular cigarette and every time you smoked it you got high, and you continued to keep smoking them, do you think anyone will believe you were duped? Bonds knew, as do you and I, that those gains are unreasonable from flaxseed oil. It is just silly to pretend otherwise.

 

Bonds is getting scrutiny in line with what he accomplished while using the substance. Why is there not going to be lots of balls with asterisks on display? Because only Bonds has broken such a record.

 

People break the law all the time, but we continue to create laws, continue to enforce them. Some people can rationalize any behavior based on every body else does it. In this case, not everyone does it. There are honest players in baseball. And if we value anything like sportsmanship and fair play, we have to discount the accomplishments of cheaters. You may call that a high horse. I believe if that looks like a high horse, your eyes are too low.

[knightni]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

 

 

[Texsox]

Another factor, which has not been addressed is the nature of the HoF. Is it a museum with a responsibility to be historically accurate and chronicle the game of baseball, or is it an entertainment and marketing venue for MLB?

 

If the role is to chronicle the history of the game, ignoring the controversy of Bond's record is intellectually dishonest. Iy ignores the greatest controversy of the past ten years, something that overshadows the game. There was congressional hearings.

 

If the HoF is just some advertisement for MLB, then they can rewrite history and make the game look as happy as possible.

[Soxbadger]

Texsox,

 

A) Yes, if Bonds was doing nothing but taking the drugs and then was seeing miracle results, you would impute knowledge. But that would be if all things were equal, if all things except X were constant. But in this case we have a myriad of variables:

 

1) Work out regiment. Was Bonds on a more stringent work out routine?

2) What was his trainer telling him, when Bonds asked about getting stronger was he told things like "Oh thats just the new weight program."

 

You can say he should have known, but that would be up to the trier of fact to decide. From the evidence that has been presented, there is very little to suggest if Bonds knew, and more importantly, when did he know. If the results took months, years, etc when do you start to say he should have known? Thats the important question, because the statute says "knowingly" so when did he have knowledge. It surely wasnt the first time he put it on, and after that it becomes a slippery slope.

 

B) But there are plenty of records, etc. You can put an asterisk on their HOF plaque, etc. But the reason Ecko did it was publicity, nothing more, nothing less.

 

C) I dont think baseball truly wants to get rid of cheating. Its not about a holier than thou attitude, or high horse, its about what has the institution done to prevent cheating. The answer is very little, players are caught cheating on the field all the time, they are given slaps on the wrist. Baseball does not investigate as hard as they could, and when there is a wink wink nudge nudge attitude, it generally breeds more cheating. So its more that baseball condones cheating that is my problem.

 

Texsox,

 

(added for second post)

 

I think that the HOF is a happy go lucky place.

 

You wont find information about Ty Cobb being a racist, etc.

 

So why is it about keeping a true record, when it only does it when it wants to?

 

I mean its not like it has a list of cheaters who were inducted into the HOF. Now if it did, then Bonds would have no complaints.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Soxbadger

[StrangeSox]

Ty Cobb being a racist has nothing to do with Ty Cobb setting baseball records.

 

Bonds has admitted to taking steroids unknowingly. I think that's BS and he knew 100%, but that's besides the point. He still gained an unfair competitive advantage. He still cheated.