Uribe Re-signed

[Leonard Zelig]

And it got them soooo far in the playoffs, didn't it?

And to clarify... "the Sox are going to go into rebuilding mode".

This is what you said:

As I said this time last year the Sox are going to go into rebuilding mode.

I didn't see that last year and it doesn't seem to the plan this year.

[BlackBetsy]

The problem with the rebuilding scenario is that I simply don't trust this organization's ability to assess minor leaguers, especially those in other organizations. I think they would overpay for premium prospects and the team would be better off with their established players. First and foremost, this organization needs to get better at drafting and evaluating amateur and minor league talent. Period. Everything else is just putting fancy finishes on a crappy foundation. (Unless the Sox are going to become the Yankees and spend $250 million a year out of their player evaluation problems. Start holding your breath for that, folks).

 

The other issue is that the 2007 offensive performance was as much of a mirage as the 2006 offensive performance. The Sox were an extremely poor (relative to the league) offensive team in 2007 after being a very very good offensive team in 2006. But if KW thinks that the baseline for the Thome-Konerko-Dye offense is 2006, he's way off. Two of those three players (Konerko, Dye) had their best years from an OPS standpoint and one shouldn't expect 2006 to be repeated.

 

Even with a bounceback from Dye and Konerko to 2005-level production, this may top out as a 83 win team, which, for all intents and purposes, is a wasted year from an organizational standpoint. Unless there are MAJOR upgrades to CF, LF, SS, and 2B, as well as the bullpen, this team is NOT going to win the 90+ games necessary to make it to the playoffs. Adding Torii Hunter to this team won't make the difference, especially if Garland is swapped for Gavin Floyd in the rotation.

[Steff]

This is what you said:

 

I didn't see that last year and it doesn't seem to the plan this year.

 

I don't know exactly what point you are trying to make. Others seem to understand mine which is that I said it before and when they didn't they s*** themselves. Eventually they will have to break it down and start over. That's what "they are going to go into rebuilding mode" means versus spending money to make them contenders again.

[NorthSideSox72]

The problem with the rebuilding scenario is that I simply don't trust this organization's ability to assess minor leaguers, especially those in other organizations. I think they would overpay for premium prospects and the team would be better off with their established players. First and foremost, this organization needs to get better at drafting and evaluating amateur and minor league talent. Period. Everything else is just putting fancy finishes on a crappy foundation. (Unless the Sox are going to become the Yankees and spend $250 million a year out of their player evaluation problems. Start holding your breath for that, folks).

 

The other issue is that the 2007 offensive performance was as much of a mirage as the 2006 offensive performance. The Sox were an extremely poor (relative to the league) offensive team in 2007 after being a very very good offensive team in 2006. But if KW thinks that the baseline for the Thome-Konerko-Dye offense is 2006, he's way off. Two of those three players (Konerko, Dye) had their best years from an OPS standpoint and one shouldn't expect 2006 to be repeated.

 

Even with a bounceback from Dye and Konerko to 2005-level production, this may top out as a 83 win team, which, for all intents and purposes, is a wasted year from an organizational standpoint. Unless there are MAJOR upgrades to CF, LF, SS, and 2B, as well as the bullpen, this team is NOT going to win the 90+ games necessary to make it to the playoffs. Adding Torii Hunter to this team won't make the difference, especially if Garland is swapped for Gavin Floyd in the rotation.

You are certainly correct that the "baseline" for those hitter is neither 2006 nor 2007 - its somewhere between.

 

One thing to keep in mind too. Its become apparent since the season ended that, unlike at the end of 2006, the organization has made a lot of internal changes to scouting staff, coaches and player development. Kenny and his crew are not blind to the failures. So whatever the team did before, I wouldn't look at that as a predictor for the future anymore, in the area of player development.

 

[Flash Tizzle]

If they are going to do it, they better do it like you state above. My worry is that Kenny is trying to rebuild in place.

He tried rebuilding in place last season and it didn't turn out too well. If Williams believes the White Sox stand a chance in 2008 (which I can't possibly believe), then I hope we finish with the worst record in the league. We've been over this issue before concerning draft position and balancing long term/short term goals. If finishing poorly two straight seasons is finally the push required for Williams to see what you, I, and numerous Sox fans see than so be it. If it takes until 2011 to reach the playoffs, I'll accept that as well. It's just, from my perspective, 2008 will be looked at in the same regard as 2001 and 2002 -- completely useless.

 

Remember, this isn't a young team. Does finishing .500 really prove anything? Especially when the consider the status of several key components of our team, and how they'll either be near or at the end of their contracts (Thome, Konerko, Pierzynski, Garland) or possibly injured (Thome, Dye) with no immediate replacements in sight. Carter and DLS better not slow down their ascent to the majors one bit.

 

And I still believe at some point within the next several seasons Williams needs atleast one trade which heavily favors our ballclub. A trade in which multiple major league caliber prospects return. No, one step backwards, one and half step forward type deals such as those concerning McCarthy. Or Vazquez. We can't have any more deals where we're weakening certain areas of our ballclub to improve others, or in the case of Danks/Masset/Rasner, marginally improve. If at that.

Edited November 8, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[Dick Allen]

The other problem the White Sox have right now is a lot of their tradeable pieces are currently in a sell low state.

[Flash Tizzle]

One thing to keep in mind too. Its become apparent since the season ended that, unlike at the end of 2006, the organization has made a lot of internal changes to scouting staff, coaches and player development. Kenny and his crew are not blind to the failures. So whatever the team did before, I wouldn't look at that as a predictor for the future anymore, in the area of player development.

I've been pleased with how this issue has been addressed. There's no telling how they'd handle a rebuilding effort, but I'm still more willing to trust Williams and company now more than I did last season. They realize the status of our farm system and no longer (from what I gather) look at it as a unit which exists to acquire veteran players.

 

Next June will interesting, to say the least.

[NorthSideSox72]

He tried rebuilding in place last season and it didn't turn out too well. If Williams believes the White Sox stand a chance in 2008 (which I can't possibly believe), then I hope we finish with the worst record in the league. We've been over this issue before concerning draft position. If finishing poorly two straight seasons is finally the push required for Williams to see what you, I, and numerous Sox fans see than so be it. If it takes until 2011 to reach the playoffs, I'll accept that as well. It's just, from my perspective, 2008 will be looked at in the same regard as 2001 and 2002 -- completely useless.

 

Remember, this isn't a young team. Does finishing .500 really prove anything? Especially when the consider the status of several key components of our team, and how they'll either be near the end of their contracts (Thome, Konerko, Pierzynski, Garland) or possibly injured (Thome, Dye) with no immediate replacements in sight. Carter and DLS better not slow down their ascent to the majors one bit.

 

And I still believe at some point within the next several seasons Williams needs atleast one trade which heavily favors our ballclub. A trade in which several major league calibur prospects return. No, one step backwards, one and half step forward type deals such as those concerning McCarthy. Or Vazquez. We can't have any more deals where we're weakening certain areas of our ballclub to improve others, or in the case of Danks/Masset/Rasner, marginally improve. If at that.

As to the bolded above, no, no he didn't. There was no attempt at rebuilding. There was only injuries and hole-plugging call-ups. The fact that we saw Fields, Owens and Richar was due to Crede and outfielders' injuries, plus the fact that the team was going nowhere, so why not? That is not rebuilding.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

The other problem the White Sox have right now is a lot of their tradeable pieces are currently in a sell low state.

That's definitely a big factor, I think. Makes it hard to have a "fire sale", even if they wanted to. Better maybe to move one or two older pieces now, and one or two more at the deadline in 2008's season if the team is out of it.

 

[Flash Tizzle]

As to the bolded above, no, no he didn't. There was no attempt at rebuilding. There was only injuries and hole-plugging call-ups. The fact that we saw Fields, Owens and Richar was due to Crede and outfielders' injuries, plus the fact that the team was going nowhere, so why not? That is not rebuilding.

I agree, he didn't rebuild. He rebuilt in place.

 

What were Danks and Masset? Danks was acqquired as the future starter, whereas Masset was the potential fireball reliever for the 2007 team.

 

What were Gonzalez and Floyd? Gonzalez was acquired as the future starter, whereas Floyd was the potential 5th starter for the 2007 team.

[NorthSideSox72]

I agree, he didn't rebuild. He rebuilt in place.

 

What were Danks and Masset? Danks was acqquired as the future starter, whereas Masset was the potential fireball reliever for the 2007 team.

 

What were Gonzalez and Floyd? Gonzalez was acquired as the future starter, whereas Floyd was the potential 5th starter for the 2007 team.

Floyd and Danks are a good point, they were competing for 1 slot though. I guess it depends on what you call rebuilding.

 

[sircaffey]

As to the bolded above, no, no he didn't. There was no attempt at rebuilding. There was only injuries and hole-plugging call-ups. The fact that we saw Fields, Owens and Richar was due to Crede and outfielders' injuries, plus the fact that the team was going nowhere, so why not? That is not rebuilding.

 

He's talking about the trades. KW definitely tried to rebuild a little bit without actually doing it, I guess you could say. Garcia for Floyd/Gonzalez. McCarthy for Danks/Masset/Rasner. Each were trading more proven Major League commodities for more impact in the future. Those definitely went against his style.

[fathom]

Steve Stone alluded to the fact today that the Sox organization is down on Danks right now, and they're actually more likely to trade him than they are Gio.

[Dick Allen]

Steve Stone alluded to the fact today that the Sox organization is down on Danks right now, and they're actually more likely to trade him than they are Gio.

He only pitched 30 innings the last 2 months of the season and gave up 31 runs. You would think he could improve on his 2007, but its no given, and his endurance has to be a major issue. Lets face it, from the middle of July on, he was a total train wreck. Some of it can be blamed on age and inexperience, still there has to be a lot of concern. The White Sox have to be very careful if they trade Garland that they bring in another starter. If Danks, Floyd and Gio are counted on for 400 innings, and the bullpen isn't lights out, you aren't going to win in 2008.

[DBAHO]

Ok so do you think the Sox would include Danks in a deal to try and get a Miggy Cabrera for example? They're not exactly stocked with young talent compared with other teams.

[BearSox]

I'd rather trade Danks then Gio...

[Jack Parkman]

What concerns me about Danks is that he doesn't have a consistent breaking ball. He rarely throws the curve for strikes, so he's mostly a two pitch pitcher, with those two pitches being fastball-changeup. Furthermore the difference in his fastball-change speed is about 7-9mph so it doesn't fool hitters very well. If you have a fastball at 90-92 and a change at 82-84 then you're not going to fool a lot of batters with it. combine that with a nonexistent curve and a launching pad for a ballpark and you have a bad pitcher my friends. OTOH, if you can teach Danks a cutter, and help him throw the curve for strikes, then he could be a Cole Hamels type. I like Danks more than Gio, because From what I saw at ST last year, Danks has a better FB and control. We don't need both of them with Mark in the rotation, so if you can trade one you do it. I'd trade Gio first because He and Danks are the same age and Danks has major league experience and Gio had to repeat AA. I also don't think Gio is really that good of a prospect. He's young and has had sucess at the minor league level, but again may I point out that he had to repeat AA. And his first goaround was in a hitters park, and he put up a 4.66 ERA. He also, IIRC, put up a 3.2 ERA in a highly pitcher friendly park in Birmingham this season in his second year in AA. I'm guessing in a hitters park he'd probably have put up and ERA slightly better than in 2006, say 4.10-4.25. He might be a great guy to meet, but I don't think he's really any good. I read the other day that his ceiling is a #3 and he probably projects to a #5 starter. IMO trade him while you can and his value is high, because he may end up being another Ryan Sweeney.

[BearSox]

I'd rather trade whoever has more value to "Team X"

Touché

[RockRaines]

What concerns me about Danks is that he doesn't have a consistent breaking ball. He rarely throws the curve for strikes, so he's mostly a two pitch pitcher, with those two pitches being fastball-changeup. Furthermore the difference in his fastball-change speed is about 7-9mph so it doesn't fool hitters very well. If you have a fastball at 90-92 and a change at 82-84 then you're not going to fool a lot of batters with it. combine that with a nonexistent curve and a launching pad for a ballpark and you have a bad pitcher my friends. OTOH, if you can teach Danks a cutter, and help him throw the curve for strikes, then he could be a Cole Hamels type. I like Danks more than Gio, because From what I saw at ST last year, Danks has a better FB and control. We don't need both of them with Mark in the rotation, so if you can trade one you do it. I'd trade Gio first because He and Danks are the same age and Danks has major league experience and Gio had to repeat AA. I also don't think Gio is really that good of a prospect. He's young and has had sucess at the minor league level, but again may I point out that he had to repeat AA. And his first goaround was in a hitters park, and he put up a 4.66 ERA. He also, IIRC, put up a 3.2 ERA in a highly pitcher friendly park in Birmingham this season in his second year in AA. I'm guessing in a hitters park he'd probably have put up and ERA slightly better than in 2006, say 4.10-4.25. He might be a great guy to meet, but I don't think he's really any good. I read the other day that his ceiling is a #3 and he probably projects to a #5 starter. IMO trade him while you can and his value is high, because he may end up being another Ryan Sweeney.

Wow. Alot of mish-mash in there.

 

Danks' best pitch is his curve, its really his only plus pitch. It may be inconsistent right now because he is a 22 year old who is in the majors one year too soon. And his fastball-change up speed change is plenty adequate especially because he has movement on it. He is advanced for his age and should improve this year. Im sure a cutter will work its way into his quiver eventually.

 

Secondly Gio didnt HAVE to repeat AA, but it was beneficial for him for his age and career dev. He was also called one of the top LHP in the minor leagues by BA. You dont get a title like that if you arent a quality talent.

 

And being another Ryan Sweeney? Do you know what age Ryan is? We have no idea what kind of a player he is going to be yet.

[Jack Parkman]

Wow. Alot of mish-mash in there.

 

Danks' best pitch is his curve, its really his only plus pitch. It may be inconsistent right now because he is a 22 year old who is in the majors one year too soon. And his fastball-change up speed change is plenty adequate especially because he has movement on it. He is advanced for his age and should improve this year. Im sure a cutter will work its way into his quiver eventually.

 

Secondly Gio didnt HAVE to repeat AA, but it was beneficial for him for his age and career dev. He was also called one of the top LHP in the minor leagues by BA. You dont get a title like that if you arent a quality talent.

 

And being another Ryan Sweeney? Do you know what age Ryan is? We have no idea what kind of a player he is going to be yet.

Thanks for clearing up the Gio repeating AA thing for me. What I mean about Gio possibly becoming another Ryan Sweeney is that Sweeney was once viewed as a top talent in the minor leagues, but now that they've had a look at him longer, he looks like a 4th or 5th OF at best and he has no power whatsoever, they may view Gio in a similar sense in a pitchers regard, Yeah, he has good stuff, but look at his numbers, they're very average if not downright terrible. Gio may be exposed at Charlotte as a #5 at best. He may put up an ERA near 5. Gio has a fastball, curve and what else? anything? Also, I know that Danks' curve is a very good pitch. I just think that he won't have any success whatsoever until he starts throwing it for strikes consistently. When he starts doing that and mixes in that new cutter with it he's going to be a damn good pitcher. I also want to see that fastball touching 94 like in the scouting reports.

Edited November 10, 2007 by southsida86

[WatchIt]

I also want to see that fastball touching 94 like in the scouting reports.

 

Go through the Pitch F/X on the Gamedays over at MLB.com from his starts this season. Pitch F/X has proved to be VERY accurate and consistent on tracking pitches, much more so than the widely fluctuating ballpark guns you see on your tv screen(especially USCF one which for the last two years has been rather inconsistent). I always try to have Gameday on when I'm at home watching the games on Extra Innings, because the consistency of the Pitch F/X is really good(it has gotten a lot of praise for the consistency and accuracy from scouts and the like). He hit 93 plenty of times, and 94 a good amount too throughout the season. The very large majority of times he was between 89-92, and there isn't much reason to be bothered by him sitting where he is comfortable throwing more strikes and getting more movement. Besides, reports had him "occasionally touching 94" which if you look at it, is exactly what he does. I think his adjusting to being a guy who will now be counted on to throw near 200 innings a year has a lot to do with it too.

[Chombi]

I'd rather trade whoever has more value to "Team X"

 

That's what I usually like to do but I think the values may not even be close.

 

Prior to last season I'd say so but it seems Danks hardly impressed this year while facing mlb talent. The fact he is still so young is huge. They said he was always a second half type pitcher all throughout the minors. He needed the adjustment period and then he'd come out and pitch up to his ability. He definately got worse to me. Like a lot worse. I am not sure if his numbers changed much other then wins and losses (I am pretty sure he was like 4-6 in the first half), but it definately seemed like he was getting worse or not making those "adjustments".

 

Meanwhile, Gio did well in his repeat of AA. I was hoping for more but o well. It seems he has much more value around baseball now..Not because of his performance but moreso of how poor Danks looked.

 

I go back and forth as to whether I see Gio as a "B" talent or an "low A" talent. For the most part I see him as a 2-3 starter and Danks to me is nothing more then a 3.

 

Idk if it's close as to who which team would want and I am not so sure I'd deal Gio unless it brings back a better player. Not even, a much better player. Be it an offensive prospect or a proven mlb talent in a bigger deal.