Are the White Sox a Mess ?

[beck72]

No they're not, and I'm going to make a detailed post on this tonight.

 

The main thing, they have the starting pitching to contend next season, IF, they decide to hold onto Garland.

A few changes mainly to the pen and bringing in a new leadoff hitter and this team can contend next season IMHO, at least for a wildcard spot.

IMO, that's a decent bet. Esp if the sox don't the right offer for Jon. They don't have to deal him. They can sort through offers after teams drool over Silva and other scrap arms. If no one meets the asking price--similar to the Jennings deal--keep Jon for 2008.

 

 

[DBAHO]

Ok here's some reasons why I think we can be a + .500 team next season.

 

1 - Excellent talent at the top of the rotation. Whatever way you spin it, Buehrle and Vazquez is a top 1-2 combo, and one of the better ones in the MLB. Buehrle had a 3.63 ERA and Vazquez had a 3.74 ERA, and yet they only won 25 games combined. If they can produce that kind of pitching again in 2008, they SHOULD win more than that, probably around 30-35.

 

2 - Jon Garland if kept, should have a good season in a contract year. And for 4 months this season, Garland was pretty damn good, ERA's under 4. It was only the 2 months after the ASB when he was working thru those shoulder issues, where he really struggled, and it put his ERA above 4. So the key here is Garland's health. If he's healthy, I think he can have an ERA below 4, and win around 15 games, 5 more than this season. Of course that's if we decide to keep him. So a top 3 of Buehrle, Vazquez and Garland is pretty good.

 

3 - The bullpen just can't be as bad. It's got to be better surely. They'll sign or trade for a couple of relievers, hopefully 1 from Japan, and MacDougal and Thornton should be improved in 2008. The overall bullpen should improve by at least 1.00 in ERA, and that will not cost the Sox about 5-10 games as it did in 2007. That's the major thing for mine for this team, fix this pen, this team is a .500 team at least.

 

4 - The Sox had the lowest total OBP last season with .318. They also had the lowest BA/RISP with .243. The Sox have made it a mission to bring in some more OBP guys. And there should be progression from the various players. Danny Richar had a .289 OBP, if he starts, that number should be around the .315-.330 mark. Jermaine Dye went down to .317 from .385 the previous season, but post ASB had an OBP of .368. That should be the norm for him this season. A.J Pierzynski had a post ASB OBP of .338 after a pre ASB mark of .287. I just can't see us being as bad as were offensively last season from happening this season. But a lot of it falls on Greg Walker's shoulders, and that is cause for concern.

 

So the important thing is, the Sox have to find a way in the cold weather early in the season to produce offensively. It would actually be a good thing, if they played more games on the road in fact.

 

So I think this team can be AT LEAST .500 next season, with the potential for 90 wins if they can fix the pen, don't trade Garland and the offense bounces back to 2006 levels. And yeah maybe I'm the eternal optimist, but someone has to try and drum up some positives for this team in light of recent events.

[kapkomet]

Good post spiderman, can't argue with you.

But like somebody said, the calendar says November and a lot can change.

Let's hope.

^^^

 

I'm not saying this about anyone in partciular but it was said somewhere recently that the White Sox fans are becoming like Yankmee fans, and I hate to say, it's true. Think about it. At least the comparison is not Red Cub fans, at least not yet.

[klaus kinski]

Are we talking Ordonez/Lee/Crede/Garland/Buehrle, etc.?

That was 1998/1999; not that long ago.

 

Most of their other minor leaguers were overvalued.

 

And Thomas, Ventura, Alex Fernandez, the young pitchers like Britt Burns, Rich Gossage, Terry Forster, and position players like Ray Durham, there was always someone ready. There were more, but the point is, we have nothing resembling this any more

Edited November 9, 2007 by klaus kinski

[beck72]

Ok here's some reasons why I think we can be a + .500 team next season.

 

1 - Excellent talent at the top of the rotation. Whatever way you spin it, Buehrle and Vazquez is a top 1-2 combo, and one of the better ones in the MLB. Buehrle had a 3.63 ERA and Vazquez had a 3.74 ERA, and yet they only won 25 games combined. If they can produce that kind of pitching again in 2008, they SHOULD win more than that, probably around 30-35.

 

2 - Jon Garland if kept, should have a good season in a contract year. And for 4 months this season, Garland was pretty damn good, ERA's under 4. It was only the 2 months after the ASB when he was working thru those shoulder issues, where he really struggled, and it put his ERA above 4. So the key here is Garland's health. If he's healthy, I think he can have an ERA below 4, and win around 15 games, 5 more than this season. Of course that's if we decide to keep him. So a top 3 of Buehrle, Vazquez and Garland is pretty good.

 

3 - The bullpen just can't be as bad. It's got to be better surely. They'll sign or trade for a couple of relievers, hopefully 1 from Japan, and MacDougal and Thornton should be improved in 2008. The overall bullpen should improve by at least 1.00 in ERA, and that will not cost the Sox about 5-10 games as it did in 2007. That's the major thing for mine for this team, fix this pen, this team is a .500 team at least.

 

4 - The Sox had the lowest total OBP last season with .318. They also had the lowest BA/RISP with .243. The Sox have made it a mission to bring in some more OBP guys. And there should be progression from the various players. Danny Richar had a .289 OBP, if he starts, that number should be around the .315-.330 mark. Jermaine Dye went down to .317 from .385 the previous season, but post ASB had an OBP of .368. That should be the norm for him this season. A.J Pierzynski had a post ASB OBP of .338 after a pre ASB mark of .287. I just can't see us being as bad as were offensively last season from happening this season. But a lot of it falls on Greg Walker's shoulders, and that is cause for concern.

 

So the important thing is, the Sox have to find a way in the cold weather early in the season to produce offensively. It would actually be a good thing, if they played more games on the road in fact.

 

So I think this team can be AT LEAST .500 next season, with the potential for 90 wins if they can fix the pen, don't trade Garland and the offense bounces back to 2006 levels. And yeah maybe I'm the eternal optimist, but someone has to try and drum up some positives for this team in light of recent events.

Good points. I am also starting to think the sox could hang onto Jon. If the sox want to make the playoffs this year--and they certainly seem built for that rather than rebuilding--keeping Jon for 2008 seems smart. Yet if the sox are out of it come the deadline again, trade for youth. Though if the sox want to get some young talent that could help in 2009, or the end of 2008--say a SS like Brent Lillibridge, as well as getting a solid bullpen arm for 2008, trading Jon makes sense as well.

 

If the sox sign Hunter for CF, there are few options for LF/ someone to hit leadoff. The sox could go with a Shannon Stewart/ Owens platoon, with Stewart getting most of the AB's but keeping him rested. The vets have to hit better. And they should. If PK and Dye can't hit for long stretches of the year, the sox aren't going anywhere.

 

The bullpen can't be as bad. But they need to add at least one solid arm for the 7th, 8th inning. Someone like Jason Frasor from Tor. The sox if they keep Jon would only have Crede and guys like Aardsma, Massett, and Sisco for trade. They will likely only get solid arm from that pool of guys. And IIRC, those three are out of options. Only one of those arms should be around come spring. Or bring them all back to fight for one spot. They may actually boost their trade value if they can get some outs in spring. It can't get much lower.

 

The rotation seems set. But Floyd needs a spot as he'll be out of options. Danks needs to step it up. Contreras might be the odd man out, though he's likely to improve after going through his divorce. A few teams will likely offer a decent bullpen arm for him. It might be selling low. But the sox could then hold onto Jon with the possibility of selling high in July.

[NorthSideSox72]

And Thomas, Ventura, Alex Fernandez, the young pitchers like Britt Burns, Rich Gossage, Terry Forster, and position players like Ray Durham, there was always someone ready. There were more, but the point is, we have nothing resembling this any more

Burns? Gossage? We're going back to the 70's now? There wasn't "always" someone ready. I was old enough to follow the team a couple decades ago or more, and believe me, there have been plenty of stretches when the team was bad and there was next to no help from the minors.

 

 

[klaus kinski]

Burns? Gossage? We're going back to the 70's now? There wasn't "always" someone ready. I was old enough to follow the team a couple decades ago or more, and believe me, there have been plenty of stretches when the team was bad and there was next to no help from the minors.

 

I could go back further than that. But we have not been able, until Josh Fields, to bring up capable replacements for injured players. I never saw anyone as bad as Andy Gonzalez with this team an extended time. I think Wassermann will work out, but no one really expected him to. Maybe the problem is they dont trust their minor league players to give them extended looks. Perhaps a number of them could play in the majors. Actually a Matt Gurrier would be an example of that. That certainly was the case with Brian Anderson. I wish he had the audition Owens & Richar got. The fact that we have been competitive, except last year, has kept us from extended looks at young players.

 

So I and others may be a bit wrong about our young players now, maybe some should be brought up sooner

 

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I don't enjoy being pessimistic. I really don't. In fact, in 2005 I bet $ 500 in Vegas on the Sox before the start of the season and in 2006 I really believed that they would make the playoffs preseason and thruout most of the season.

 

Since then, I've been pessimistic and I do realize now that the Sox are a big mess due to several basic issues:

 

1. They have a team that right now probably has 5-6 holes that should be filled in order to have a championship caliber team.

 

2. They have very few players in the system that will become star level Major Leaguers ( maybe 3 or 4 ) and none of them will reach that level this year or even next.

 

3. They already have a high payroll (over $ 100 mil.) that is approaching its maximum. Therefore if they added a number of free agents like they need, they will also have to shed some player's salaries in trade. Because they have no in-house replacements they can't trade their high salaried vets without signifcantly weakening the team.

 

4. The bottom line is that the AL Central and the AL in general is so tough that they can't make the post season in 2008 without very significant improvement. Even if KW filled 2 or 3 holes nicely, this team could still easily finish in 3rd place.

 

 

[Pants Rowland]

Brian Anderson. I wish he had the audition Owens & Richar got.

I think he got a pretty good opportunity in 2006, didn't he? Or are you saying you wish he had a chance to come up and find his way as a rookie without all of the added pressures of replacing an icon one year removed from a WS title?

[knightni]

And Thomas, Ventura, Alex Fernandez, the young pitchers like Britt Burns, Rich Gossage, Terry Forster, and position players like Ray Durham, there was always someone ready. There were more, but the point is, we have nothing resembling this any more

 

You realize why, right?

 

Most of those players were high draft choices. The Sox haven't picked that high in quite awhile.

 

Fernandez was #4 - he flamed out fast.

 

Thomas was #7.

 

Ventura was #10

 

Burns was a decent 3rd rounder who had a short career as a 4th starter.

 

Gossage was a 9th round HS guy that they succeeded with - like Buehrle.

 

Forster was a 2nd rounder who had constant weight and control issues.

 

Durham was a 5th rounder that was a HS guy who chose to forgo college, otherwise he might have been a 1st rounder.

 

 

Everything always looks rosier when you look back on it with nostalgia.

 

[retro1983hat]

Please, please, please ..... stop saying it's early.

 

In 2007, coming out of a horrible ST, Sox fans said, "it's early"

 

When we got off to a horrible start, Sox fans said, "it's early"

 

When we were swept by the Cubs, Sox fans said, "it's early"

 

The off season started for the Sox in May last year. It is not early. I know there is still 3 months until ST, but the Sox deserve no relief of pressure from Sox fans this year. Every day, KW needs to be asked, "What have you done today to win the World Series in 2008?"

 

Anything short of that is a FAILURE!!!!

[knightni]

Don't cry til February.

 

 

[Chombi]

Ok here's some reasons why I think we can be a + .500 team next season.

 

1 - Excellent talent at the top of the rotation. Whatever way you spin it, Buehrle and Vazquez is a top 1-2 combo, and one of the better ones in the MLB. Buehrle had a 3.63 ERA and Vazquez had a 3.74 ERA, and yet they only won 25 games combined. If they can produce that kind of pitching again in 2008, they SHOULD win more than that, probably around 30-35.

 

2 - Jon Garland if kept, should have a good season in a contract year. And for 4 months this season, Garland was pretty damn good, ERA's under 4. It was only the 2 months after the ASB when he was working thru those shoulder issues, where he really struggled, and it put his ERA above 4. So the key here is Garland's health. If he's healthy, I think he can have an ERA below 4, and win around 15 games, 5 more than this season. Of course that's if we decide to keep him. So a top 3 of Buehrle, Vazquez and Garland is pretty good.

 

3 - The bullpen just can't be as bad. It's got to be better surely. They'll sign or trade for a couple of relievers, hopefully 1 from Japan, and MacDougal and Thornton should be improved in 2008. The overall bullpen should improve by at least 1.00 in ERA, and that will not cost the Sox about 5-10 games as it did in 2007. That's the major thing for mine for this team, fix this pen, this team is a .500 team at least.

 

4 - The Sox had the lowest total OBP last season with .318. They also had the lowest BA/RISP with .243. The Sox have made it a mission to bring in some more OBP guys. And there should be progression from the various players. Danny Richar had a .289 OBP, if he starts, that number should be around the .315-.330 mark. Jermaine Dye went down to .317 from .385 the previous season, but post ASB had an OBP of .368. That should be the norm for him this season. A.J Pierzynski had a post ASB OBP of .338 after a pre ASB mark of .287. I just can't see us being as bad as were offensively last season from happening this season. But a lot of it falls on Greg Walker's shoulders, and that is cause for concern.

 

So the important thing is, the Sox have to find a way in the cold weather early in the season to produce offensively. It would actually be a good thing, if they played more games on the road in fact.

 

So I think this team can be AT LEAST .500 next season, with the potential for 90 wins if they can fix the pen, don't trade Garland and the offense bounces back to 2006 levels. And yeah maybe I'm the eternal optimist, but someone has to try and drum up some positives for this team in light of recent events.

 

 

I am sorry. You have too many "should's" and "could's" in there.

 

Being a .500 team doesn't make us a contender IMO. If it does, it means our division is beating on eachother and if thats the case, we won't be a .500 team. We will be near it, but not above it. Even if we are, it's a waste cuz we spent 100 mill to play .500 baseball and not make the playoffs.

 

1) I can agree with but with those numbers...they "should've" won more games this year and didn't. Javy isn't someone you can completely rely on yet. Mark B I am hoping wins 15 but who knows. As far as top 1-2...Idk. We don't even have the top 1-2 in our division. If Liriano is healthy, we are 3rd in our division. 1-2-3 I'd say with Garland may be the best in our division but even that has a case for not being true.

 

2) Should have a good year in a contract year. I am one who believes in that theory until it comes to our own players. It is a 50/50 thing and maybe moreso untrue then anything else. So this I do not buy. The shoulder troubles and what not I agree with but...how do we know he is healthy? So for #2 we disagree.

 

3) Why can't they be as bad? I for one think they don't need to add anyone via trade or FA and I think it would be stupid to do so, but I seem to be in the minority. Our bullpen is trouble but I think some of those guys who failed last year can turn it around.

 

4) Nothing says Richar will improve. We hope he does. I hope he does but I have little faith in him. IDC what JD does, he needs to be healthy. AJP I think will bounce bat because I think he is a good natural hitter.

 

All that said...It doesnt make us a contender. This team is getting older. Our speed isn't baseball worthy yet. We have a lot of issues and you can't expect oft-injured Dye, Thome, Crede to help this team. Banking on those things leads to trouble because you aren't prepared for the "what if's"...Think Cubs w/Wood and Prior.

 

This team contended a couple years ago. That window may have a crack left but I'd say w/how good Cleveland and Detroit are and w/Minnesota and KC not being a bad ball club, that our team just doesn't have enough to beat those teams the way they did in 05/06.

 

I think being a .500 club is potentially there if everything goes right. However, I'll plan for the MEAN and not go too pess or optimistic. To me that is no good though. At best, this team isn't a playoff team. They just aren't. It would take a complete flop out of Cleveland and Detroit...and trust me, they will be better. They have much better talent from their farms coming into play this season then we do.

 

I do not want to spend 100 mil and hear JR complain about how much we spend now and how we won't spend when we need to because of our poor performances when the payroll was high. I'd prefer to go all in, or fold. In this case, I'd say we are much better folding and dumping our vets for as much young talent as we can.

[DBAHO]

1. I would say you can rely on Javy right now. He's got argubly the best stuff of any starter in our rotation, had over 200K's, and put up a good ERA at home, only 3.57. I don't know if Liriano will be the same, especially so soon since his surgery, so I'd say our guys are more proven and sure things.

 

2. Whether we like it or not, players heading into a contract year just seem to do better. I don't think you can argue because it happens to most teams, yet it won't with ours. Garland's health is the key here, if his shoulder is healthy, a sub 4 ERA is very possible for mine, if not, his ERA will be around the same it was this season. I hope he's getting plenty of rest this off-season.

 

3. I don't think they can be as bad because of the talent levels, the ballpark they hit in, and recent history. I saw 2007 for our offense more as an outlier than anything. Dye should be better (he's better than a .317 OBP player surely), Konerko could be a little better, Thome will be around the mark again. And if they add a Hunter to the mix, albeit he will be ovepaid, but he will certainly help. The pen for me just can't be as bad as it was, and it needs the most help, but I think the Sox are really going to target this area. So I see both the offense and pen being better in 2008.

 

4. I think it was CwsGuy406 who posted a Zips projection or BaseballProspectus projection for Richar recently, and it was .270/.330/.440. That's a .770 OPS. The guy has good plate discipline, a little bit of pop, and I think that kind of line could be very possible for him next season. And if he can do that, that will help the offense. Having Fields in our offense for a full season could give you 30 HR's, and hopefully his OBP will rise a little (but he will need to draw more walks and strike out less, but he does take a lot of pitches).

 

Cleveland are obviously the team to beat for mine. Detroit still have some questions about their pen (no Zumaya for half a season will be a BIG loss), so I don't know if they can win more games than they did this season, although the Renteria acquisition will certainly help.

 

And look, I think we should rebuild as well. But I'm just trying to show that if KW decides to have another crack at this thing for next season, that it's not all doom and gloom like it was this season.

[beck72]

Our bullpen I think will bounce back. I still have faith in guys like Mike Mac, I like Thorton, Logan has grown on me, and I think we will have a couple young future SP's up in that pen this year that will help. Could we use another arm? Sure. I don't want it through FA cuz I am not spending 8 mil on a bp arm...unless...

 

Idk how you guys feel about it, but I wouldn't mind seeing Contreras out of the pen after watching how bad he looked all year. I've said it alot on here. I think mentally he may not have the late inning make-up but for a long or middle relief guy I think one or two innings could work out of him. He needs to throw strikes but for one inning having to see his stuff and his arm angles, it could work out. IDK, something I have been pondering.

 

Our offense is bad. No leadoff hitter and our power is old. I was very upset to hear Thome wanted to retire here b/c I am all for it, but I really thought he would've had some value at the deadline last season. Same goes for JD.

 

Richar is not our guy. We made the deal, I thought he was going to be a back-up not our starter. If he is, I'll be very upset.

 

God I'd like to see a firesale still. It'd be fun if you ask me.

A few responses:

 

*The sox can't count on the bullpen bouncing back. for the sox to sit still and have the 2nd worst bullpen in the league is beyond foolish. The trade route is the best way to go because there are no decent arms. At least one solid, dependable guy who can post a 3.00 ERA and lock down leads for Jenks is needed. But I could see some SP's from the minors contend for spots, like Broadway, Philips.

 

*Contreras isn't built for the pen. He's a SP and IMO he still has 2 decent yrs in him. He's not Garcia going out there with 8 less MPH. His problems seemed more emotional than physical. With the personal issues [divorce] behind him, he's a strong candidate to bounce back with near 4.00 ERA, if not sub 4.00.

 

*The sox offense was horrible in 2007. Yet who thought they'd be that terrible? Not by a long shot. The sox power guys can be old. Dye and PK will still be good for the next 2 yrs. Thome is still one of the best DH's. The offense can be middle of the pack or better with a few additions. Getting a leadoff or a #2 hitter is key though.

 

*Richar should be decent enough. He'll likely improve, as he already has the patience. He's making pitchers work, and not being an easy out. With that approach, he should be fine. He needs to play solid d, though. He was able to turn the DP well, and play better D than he was given credit for.

 

*NO firesale would be fun, regardless of what talent might come from it. That would guarantee a few losing seasons. I give Kenny credit. He's going out and trying to win w/o giving up the future. It remains to be seen if it's the right move.

 

Both KW and Brian Cashman banked on restocking their systems in 2007 with young arms. It didn't pan out for the sox. Yet those arms [Floyd, Gio, Massett, Danks] might be heard from more this yr.

Edited November 10, 2007 by beck72

[Chombi]

1. I would say you can rely on Javy right now. He's got argubly the best stuff of any starter in our rotation, had over 200K's, and put up a good ERA at home, only 3.57. I don't know if Liriano will be the same, especially so soon since his surgery, so I'd say our guys are more proven and sure things.

 

2. Whether we like it or not, players heading into a contract year just seem to do better. I don't think you can argue because it happens to most teams, yet it won't with ours. Garland's health is the key here, if his shoulder is healthy, a sub 4 ERA is very possible for mine, if not, his ERA will be around the same it was this season. I hope he's getting plenty of rest this off-season.

 

3. I don't think they can be as bad because of the talent levels, the ballpark they hit in, and recent history. I saw 2007 for our offense more as an outlier than anything. Dye should be better (he's better than a .317 OBP player surely), Konerko could be a little better, Thome will be around the mark again. And if they add a Hunter to the mix, albeit he will be ovepaid, but he will certainly help. The pen for me just can't be as bad as it was, and it needs the most help, but I think the Sox are really going to target this area. So I see both the offense and pen being better in 2008.

 

4. I think it was CwsGuy406 who posted a Zips projection or BaseballProspectus projection for Richar recently, and it was .270/.330/.440. That's a .770 OPS. The guy has good plate discipline, a little bit of pop, and I think that kind of line could be very possible for him next season. And if he can do that, that will help the offense. Having Fields in our offense for a full season could give you 30 HR's, and hopefully his OBP will rise a little (but he will need to draw more walks and strike out less, but he does take a lot of pitches).

 

Cleveland are obviously the team to beat for mine. Detroit still have some questions about their pen (no Zumaya for half a season will be a BIG loss), so I don't know if they can win more games than they did this season, although the Renteria acquisition will certainly help.

 

And look, I think we should rebuild as well. But I'm just trying to show that if KW decides to have another crack at this thing for next season, that it's not all doom and gloom like it was this season.

 

 

1) See the problem w/ Javy is no one denies his stuff. The problem is he did well last year but the 3 previous he had an ERA around like 4.7 so I am not confident in him repeating it yet. And he has been around 200 k's the last 3 seasons so his k's are always there. I agree about Liriano but I am saying that they both have question marks. Obviously Lirianos is a health one so that is bigger.

 

2) I used to think so but guys like Andruw Jones, Jermaine Dye, Mark Buehrle, Mike Cameron, Gagne, etc...For every one who does well, there is one who does bad and another who does their usual. So to say Garland is automatically going to perform well is just a bad idea.

 

3) I won't argue with but we shouldn't assume age won't hit those guys either. Dye and Thome are old and aren't exactly guys with perfect health records. Paulie is just weird. He just has that one random season or really like 1.5 and then he is fine for the next couple years.

 

4) Enh...Zips...I hope they're right about him. I'd love to have more faith in Richar and Owens but..I just dont. They also show Aaron Rowand, Hunter, etc not having that great of seasons next year but they are about to cash in. So I think those are not taken very seriously. I for one tend to look at Zips more then the average person so I am prolly bashing myself in saying that.

 

The point is, We have a better chance at repeating last years performance then we do making the playoffs. If we were in the NL central maybe go for it but we aren't. We have one of the most competitive divisions in baseball and I just think it would serve us well to deal as much as we can. I can't stress enough how cheap our owner can be sometimes. So he can't be enthusiastic about dropping 100 mil to keep losing and he'll take it out on us down the road when it matters using this as his reasoning against a payroll increase.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Chombi and the Fungi

[Chombi]

A few responses:

 

*The sox can't count on the bullpen bouncing back. for the sox to sit still and have the 2nd worst bullpen in the league is beyond foolish. The trade route is the best way to go because there are no decent arms. At least one solid, dependable guy who can post a 3.00 ERA and lock down leads for Jenks is needed. But I could see some SP's from the minors contend for spots, like Broadway, Philips.

 

*Contreras isn't built for the pen. He's a SP and IMO he still has 2 decent yrs in him. He's not Garcia going out there with 8 less MPH. His problems seemed more emotional than physical. With the personal issues [divorce] behind him, he's a strong candidate to bounce back with near 4.00 ERA, if not sub 4.00.

 

*The sox offense was horrible in 2007. Yet who thought they'd be that terrible? Not by a long shot. The sox power guys can be old. Dye and PK will still be good for the next 2 yrs. Thome is still one of the best DH's. The offense can be middle of the pack or better with a few additions. Getting a leadoff or a #2 hitter is key though.

 

*Richar should be decent enough. He'll likely improve, as he already has the patience. He's making pitchers work, and not being an easy out. With that approach, he should be fine. He needs to play solid d, though. He was able to turn the DP well, and play better D than he was given credit for.

 

*NO firesale would be fun, regardless of what talent might come from it. That would guarantee a few losing seasons. I give Kenny credit. He's going out and trying to win w/o giving up the future. It remains to be seen if it's the right move.

 

Both KW and Brian Cashman banked on restocking their systems in 2007 with young arms. It didn't pan out for the sox. Yet those arms [Floyd, Gio, Massett, Danks] might be heard from more this yr.

 

They can't count on it. I just think they'll bounce back. Mac is the Javy/Jose of our bullpen. His stuff is crazy. Thorton, Logan, Jenks...just need someone to step up in ST.

 

Yea. Obviously Idk how well he can warm up in a hurry for one and two, is his emotion. He is a headcase but for one inning stuff wise I think he'd be untouchable. I hope he bounces back like you do. For a SP though I think he is over the hill. Take his age and add 10 to it.

 

I answered my theory on their batting elsewhere. I hope for a bounce back but out of Thome and Dye, I just expect one to underperform and one to have a nagging injury. they're old, it happens.

 

You guys on this board are getting my hopes up for Richar. So you better be right. I saw him as filling a hole so we could deal Tadahito. I didnt see him as a 2nd basemen of the future. I hope you all are right.

 

Well the firesale would be fun. The deals we make would be exciting and our team would have no expectations. Our organization got into a mess w/poor scouting and a .500 ballclub every year. I think you need to be contenders, and if you arent, then why waste a chance to get talent that will make you contenders in a couple years. Every other team in our division did it. Their fans probably said the same thing as we are...and look at them now. Legit contenders every year with young talent and more and more coming. We have old players w/ minimal young talent coming and 0 blue chip.

 

So a firesale I am ok with. We can still be a 60 win team if it's done right. I'd hang on to a couple guys (Mark B., Javy, and I guess Thome w/ his no trade clause) but otherwise why not.

[beck72]

Well the firesale would be fun. The deals we make would be exciting and our team would have no expectations. Our organization got into a mess w/poor scouting and a .500 ballclub every year. I think you need to be contenders, and if you arent, then why waste a chance to get talent that will make you contenders in a couple years. Every other team in our division did it. Their fans probably said the same thing as we are...and look at them now. Legit contenders every year with young talent and more and more coming. We have old players w/ minimal young talent coming and 0 blue chip.

 

So a firesale I am ok with. We can still be a 60 win team if it's done right. I'd hang on to a couple guys (Mark B., Javy, and I guess Thome w/ his no trade clause) but otherwise why not.

The sox don't have to have a firesale if they: 1] spend money; 2] draft better young players; 3] deal for bargains like they have in the past; Things can turn around pretty quickly in baseball, esp with regard to farm systems. Teams like Boston, the rockies, the Yanks, Mets have turned their systems around in one or two years w/o blowing the team up.

 

The sox will still be $100 mill. ballclub. They aren't going the Marlins route and dealing solid players just for financial reasons.

[sircaffey]

*NO firesale would be fun, regardless of what talent might come from it. That would guarantee a few losing seasons. I give Kenny credit. He's going out and trying to win w/o giving up the future. It remains to be seen if it's the right move.

 

Both KW and Brian Cashman banked on restocking their systems in 2007 with young arms. It didn't pan out for the sox. Yet those arms [Floyd, Gio, Massett, Danks] might be heard from more this yr.

 

It's easy to do that when you don't have much of one.

[Chombi]

The sox don't have to have a firesale if they: 1] spend money; 2] draft better young players; 3] deal for bargains like they have in the past; Things can turn around pretty quickly in baseball, esp with regard to farm systems. Teams like Boston, the rockies, the Yanks, Mets have turned their systems around in one or two years w/o blowing the team up.

 

The sox will still be $100 mill. ballclub. They aren't going the Marlins route and dealing solid players just for financial reasons.

 

Very true...Problem is...

 

We don't scout well...we have made some signings internationally but those are many years away from anything...Our drafting is a joke up and down the board.

 

The Red Sox have an incredible scouting group and they are willing to spend money. By spend money, I mean spend it. Not go half ass like we do.

 

Rockies have built internally and idk where you got turning systems around in 102 years because they've had a losing record (like 70 wins) in 5 of the last 6 years. So that is how they rebuilt. I am totally confused as to why they were mentioned...Maybe cuz they didn't deal Helton? But thats cause no one wanted his contract more then anything else.

 

Met's same deal. They had 3-4 pretty bad years not long ago. Those years they drafted guys like Kazmir, Milledge, Humber, and signed guys like Gomez. And they had those years while spending 90+ million. That rediculous. And o yea. They signed Beltran, Delgado, Pedro, Glavine, Castillo, Reyes (technically they did), Wagner....So how did they not blow it up? It's a completely bought team or drafted from when they were bad.

 

100 million isnt the same as 7-10 years ago. If you're going to spend money an increase is necessary. Not much but like a 30-40 mil increase minimum just based off how contracts go today. Sox payroll is still in the upper 15 payrolls but teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs, Angels, Dodgers, Seattle, and all those teams excluding the Yankees and Mariners seem to get that. All are appearing to be expanding payroll even more this offseason excluding the Yankees and Mariners. The Yankees are well above the rest of the league so it's not much but the Mariners just had expiring contracts.

 

To spend 100 mil and get the 7th pick is a joke. Next year we will improve but end up with the 15 pick. We spent 100 mil and got nothing out of it....Or we can spend 70 mil this season by trading several guys for one or two good prospects, sign a guy like Hunter or whatever as an offering to the fans we won't complete tank it and then play. No expectations. A top 15 pick doesn't hurt us that way cuz we didnt just throw away 40 mil extra on mediocrity.

 

If we want to keep this team and play up to potential...We finish in 2nd-3rd. Probably 3rd. That's great since they aren't young and then next year everyone will play the same "one more shot" card. If we sell now, it will benefit us later.

[spiderman]

Pitching: I agree spiderman i am a bit worried about the rotation.. ESPECIALLY if Garland gets traded. You can't rely on Contreras to get back on track. And how can we expect both Danks and Floyd step it up? Danks showed promise in the first half but tapered off quickly after the All-star break. Floyd struggle hardcore when he got here, but than found a little groove toward the end when the season was already long gone. I don't mind having one of these pitchers in our rotation, but i don't want them both...

The bullpen.. YIKES Kenny said this will be his top priority this offseason.. I really hope it is, because it was down right HORRIBLE.

 

Speed: If we get Hunter for CF, that leaves LF as our only open spot (pending a Crede trade) for a speedy leadoff hitter. . With all the other possitions filled up, that also leaves the critical #2 spot open... someone who can bunt and have a solid OBP. I really don't see any #2 hitters in our lineup now that Iguchi has departed. Fields is more like a #6 or 7 hitter and so is Hunter. Uribe will likely be the 8th place hitter and Richar the 9th. . This team is pretty much assembled like the 2000-2004 team of one leadoff hitter and the rest boppers. .

 

But its EARLY: KW can pull of many surprises.. last year he didn't do much and the results showed that. the year before he added Thome, Mackowiack, Cintron, Vazquez and Thorton. That was a good offseason... Despite the fact they collasped in the 2nd half. This offseason he needs to do even more IMHO. Make 1 or 2 trades... get a few speedy guys in the lineup.. trade a bopper or 2 (Crede and Konerko?) hopefully trade Contreras for a team desperate for another starter.. possibly give us a decent reliever and prospect back.. Sign a Japanese reliever or 2.. Add some bench depth... Yeah this offseason is damn critical for KW...

 

With those rumors of Hunter possibly getting 6 years, I don't think the White Sox would be willing to do that (smartly) too so I really think that CF is more likely to be filled through a trade with somebody like Coco Crisp. I know Rowand is probably next on the free agent list in CF, but is really worth $10-11 million a year over 4 or 5 seasons ?

 

As far as pitching, I just don't think this team will be near the top of the division if they have to depend on both Gavin Floyd and John Denks as the #4 and #5 starters.

 

If the White Sox are unable to sign Hunter, might they be willing to look at resigning Garland instead with this money ? Just an idea, but it's hard to compete with a mediocre starting rotation.

 

[spiderman]

There are alot of problems and issues as you said, but to our credit, our team isn't as bad as they played for 2 reasons. 1) Bad years everywhere. Somewhat flukey. (2) we play in a tough division and it takes it toll....That said, we still have a division that is only going to be one year better. So I don't see much improvement.

 

One of my biggest concerns, which I probably should have shared earlier, is that Kenny Williams has too much faith in the team. Last year's 72 wins were bad, but this really started after the all-star break the previous season. I think Kenny really needs to remake this team instead of just adding to it, which definitely helps.

 

[spiderman]

Yes, the White Sox are in a big mess---as of right now.

 

-I hope that they sign someone to help that pen out there, it doesn't need to be a big name or a Japanese player. It just needs to be someone who comes in here and just gets on a tare and kicks ass. I can see Aardsma coming back and being a help in the 'pen this year, I believe last year was a fluke and I hope he proves everyone else wrong in ST. Hopefully MacDougal lives up to what KW wants him to be, but I'm not too high on him like I am Aardsma. Either way, the 'pen needs two more arms. I like what I see out of Wassermann, too.

 

-I am a bit concerned about our rotation if Buehrle and Vazquez fail and we don't add anyone this off-season, but it is only November 8th. I have a feeling the Sox will end up trading Garland at the Winter Meetings. I liked what I saw out of Broadway, I wouldn't mind if he was the No. 5 and the Sox tried to move Danks or Floyd in a package deal with some other player. If there's any way they can dump the Count, they should do it. Otherwise, I anticipate it being a challenge, but by no means a problem that cannot be fixed.

 

-I'm not sure that it was a good move to re-sign Dye, but maybe his fat slow ass can prove me wrong. The major issue I see is that there isn't a good leadoff hitter and I don't think our OF or 2B is set yet. I'm under the assumption that Williams will bring in Graffanino or Iguchi to platoon with Richar, because I don't think Richar is the answer at 2B. I'm still on the Rowand bandwagon, but the Sox should not go and sign Hunter, that would be a bad move IMO. He's too pricey, getting older and he wants a long-term deal. Other than that, I think it'd be fine with Fields playin in LF and if Crede is healthy, then he'll take 3B.

 

-Hey, at least the Sox didn't get Eckstein. Maybe Juan will lay off the quarter-pounders, booze and Mountain Dew and put down the World of Warcraft at some point in the off-season.

 

-I think Konerko and Crede will be back and that we will see Fields in LF after Williams said, "We will know soon of Fields' playing status for '08."

 

Although I didn't like that the Sox may not have pursued other options for the shortstop position and that Williams re-upped with Dye, I can't sit here and say the moves were bad. Dye could be good this year and we gave Uribe $500,000 less. Let's just sit here and see what happens in the coming weeks, because there's got to be some moves happening at the Winter Meetings.

 

- I don't see a bullpen makeover happening here. Already, we are being told by local reporters that Day could be a possible surprise for next season, but even if he isn't on the roster, I think the White Sox are really basing their bullpen improvement hopes on MacDougle and Thorton bouncing back, and we've seen enough over the years to see that a lot of those relievers tend to be up one season, and down the next. If they do trade Garland (or whoever else), I wouldn't be surprised if they add a bullpen arm for next season provided that he has a reasonable contract, but that would be about it.

 

- I'm hoping that the White Sox keep Jon Garland for next season, and find somebody to take Contreras. I don't think he's got much left in the tank. I'm kind of resigned to the fact that we're going to have 2 young starting pitchers in our rotation, and Broadway will hopefully be allowed to compete against Floyd/Denks.

 

- I'm hoping Kenny Williams brings in a veteran to a 1 year deal to compete with Richar, and the guy I like is Mark Loretta. He also played some SS last season though he's more known as a 2B.

 

[Balta1701]

As far as pitching, I just don't think this team will be near the top of the division if they have to depend on both Gavin Floyd and John Denks as the #4 and #5 starters.

 

If the White Sox are unable to sign Hunter, might they be willing to look at resigning Garland instead with this money ? Just an idea, but it's hard to compete with a mediocre starting rotation.

If we were talking about a seriously dominant pitcher, like a Buehrle, I might agree with you here. But when I look at it, I see a Jon Garland who puts up an awful lot of innings as an average pitcher. He's had 1 year where his ERA dropped below 4. Yes, he could do that again, but when I look at how this team is built, I see a couple noteworthy things.

 

Right now, as it currently sits, we have over $45 million tied up in starting pitching next year. That's nearly half our salary in 4 guys.

 

2 of those guys put up average to poor numbers last year; Jon and Jose. Jose, I still doubt he's movable. Jon is certainly movable, the only question is how much we could get teams to give up for him.

 

I for one don't see it as a huge jump to expect that we could get either Floyd or Danks to give us a 4.5 ERA or better next year, and I think Floyd if no one else probably could put up 200+ innings if we threw him out there all season (hopefully he'd do well enough to earn those innings). And I still look behind them and see a lot of other guys who we might be able to throw in next year and have them be average also, and that's sort of what I'm shooting for here; a guy who gives us decent innings with average numbers, because that's what Jon currently does.

 

If we were to trade Jose, without having to pick up his contract, I have no problem holding onto Jon and either trying to resign him, trading him at the deadline if we're out of it, or letting him walk next year for picks. But I just can't see how it pays for this team with its salary constraints to pay $45 million for a starting rotation that has 1 average guy and 1 currently below average guy.

 

Tying up that kind of money in one area of the team was one of the reasons we struggled in 03-04; we had like 60% of our salary tied up in 4 bats. Now a ton of it's tied up in pitching and Konerko/Dye, and just as our pitching staffs struggled in 03-04 when we had all that money tied up in a couple guys (remember the 5th starter woes?) now we have all this money tied up in pitching but we have a couple of big question marks in the field that we might not have money to cover (Uribe, OF).

[spiderman]

So does the weight fall on KW, or does it fall on our poor scouting, player development, where?

 

Do you think that a few years in the dumps would do this organization good? I don't see us being contenders with how tough this division is. So would it make sense from a business standpoint and an organization standpoint to go with the "kids can play" moto and let them develop up in the show.

 

We were the only team excluding NYY or maybe just the only team in general I believe to not have a top 10 pick in the last 15+ years. I forget the stat, but I believe prior to this upcoming draft we hadn't had one.

 

Deal for prospects, scout better both for our draft and also internationally. Then be ready for 2 years from now. 100 mil a year to get a top 10 pick is a joke.

 

I don't think the White Sox are going to dump players in order to improve the farm system - they resigned Dye and Buerhle to compete now.