Are the White Sox a Mess ?

[spiderman]

Are we going to have 9+ new faces for Opening Day 2008?

 

Let's see.

 

I think we'll have a veteran middle IF brought in, a CF, and maybe a LF (though if the CF is a power hitter, I can see the White Sox sticking with Jerry Owens in LF), and maybe another middle reliever.

 

Whether there are more changes will depend on how willing Kenny is on remodeling the club as opposed to just adding to it. We've heard the Konerko rumors as an example. Trading him would change the shape of the offensive club.

[rockren]

I don't think the White Sox are going to dump players in order to improve the farm system - they resigned Dye and Buerhle to compete now.

 

Agreed, although Garland is certainly a player they'll look to dump for multiple young Grade B arms.

[Balta1701]

Agreed, although Garland is certainly a player they'll look to dump for multiple young Grade B arms.

While your point is taken...I think it would be foolish to insist on pitching as a return for JG given the state of our minor leagues and the fact that we're mildly stronger on pitching talent than on position players. Naturally, if someone offers you a Kershaw you laugh all the way to the bank, but barring that, I would put a higher priority on finding someone who could play the field somewhere.

[rockren]

If the White Sox are unable to sign Hunter, might they be willing to look at resigning Garland instead with this money ? Just an idea, but it's hard to compete with a mediocre starting rotation.

 

It isn't a bad idea, however I don't think the WSox want to give Garland an MB contract. Not that he isn't worth it to them, but I don't think they want to tie up another SP for multiple seasons at 12 mil/year.

Edited November 17, 2007 by rockren

[rockren]

While your point is taken...I think it would be foolish to insist on pitching as a return for JG given the state of our minor leagues and the fact that we're mildly stronger on pitching talent than on position players. Naturally, if someone offers you a Kershaw you laugh all the way to the bank, but barring that, I would put a higher priority on finding someone who could play the field somewhere.

 

That could be- and we'd get picked off by the police before we made it to the bank with Kershaw...

 

I may sound like a broken record in saying this trade, but a deal with Zona for Owings/Nippert and Pena would be ideal in KW's mind IMO.

Edited November 17, 2007 by rockren

[spiderman]

Good points. I am also starting to think the sox could hang onto Jon. If the sox want to make the playoffs this year--and they certainly seem built for that rather than rebuilding--keeping Jon for 2008 seems smart. Yet if the sox are out of it come the deadline again, trade for youth. Though if the sox want to get some young talent that could help in 2009, or the end of 2008--say a SS like Brent Lillibridge, as well as getting a solid bullpen arm for 2008, trading Jon makes sense as well.

 

If the sox sign Hunter for CF, there are few options for LF/ someone to hit leadoff. The sox could go with a Shannon Stewart/ Owens platoon, with Stewart getting most of the AB's but keeping him rested. The vets have to hit better. And they should. If PK and Dye can't hit for long stretches of the year, the sox aren't going anywhere.

 

The bullpen can't be as bad. But they need to add at least one solid arm for the 7th, 8th inning. Someone like Jason Frasor from Tor. The sox if they keep Jon would only have Crede and guys like Aardsma, Massett, and Sisco for trade. They will likely only get solid arm from that pool of guys. And IIRC, those three are out of options. Only one of those arms should be around come spring. Or bring them all back to fight for one spot. They may actually boost their trade value if they can get some outs in spring. It can't get much lower.

 

The rotation seems set. But Floyd needs a spot as he'll be out of options. Danks needs to step it up. Contreras might be the odd man out, though he's likely to improve after going through his divorce. A few teams will likely offer a decent bullpen arm for him. It might be selling low. But the sox could then hold onto Jon with the possibility of selling high in July.

 

It seems that a consensus is building that keeping Garland as the #3 starter is a major key to getting this team back on track. Adding another relief pitcher would be another smart move, but it would be extremely hard to compete with a shaky (at best) starting rotation.

 

[Balta1701]

It isn't a bad idea, however I don't think the WSox want to give Garland an MB contract. Not that he isn't worth it to them, but I don't think they want to tie up another SP for multiple seasons at 12 mil/year.

And the frightening thing is...JG for $12 million a year right now might well be a bargain compared to what he'll get on the open market next year.

[spiderman]

Please, please, please ..... stop saying it's early.

 

In 2007, coming out of a horrible ST, Sox fans said, "it's early"

 

When we got off to a horrible start, Sox fans said, "it's early"

 

When we were swept by the Cubs, Sox fans said, "it's early"

 

The off season started for the Sox in May last year. It is not early. I know there is still 3 months until ST, but the Sox deserve no relief of pressure from Sox fans this year. Every day, KW needs to be asked, "What have you done today to win the World Series in 2008?"

 

Anything short of that is a FAILURE!!!!

 

That sounds like a bit of an overreaction. If there were other moves happening every day, and we were sitting back, that's one thing, but Kenny is about as agressive they come, and he'll get going soon. I think the ARod decision will hopefully get the ball rolling going into next week.

[Balta1701]

It seems that a consensus is building that keeping Garland as the #3 starter is a major key to getting this team back on track. Adding another relief pitcher would be another smart move, but it would be extremely hard to compete with a shaky (at best) starting rotation.

The way I look at it...right now we have so many different places where we need to spend money that at some point, we have to gamble a bit on what we have and save money in a place or two. Based on what Floyd, Broadway, Danks, Gio, etc. have done recently, which for many of them is simply "Not suck for an entire year", I think SP is a good place to try to do that. I can give the same logic for why I think we need Owens and Richar in the lineup next year; we just don't have the money to find someone better at every slot, and our money would be better spent finding another OF/#2 hitter, an upgraded SS, and another RHP out of the bullpen.

[spiderman]

The way I look at it...right now we have so many different places where we need to spend money that at some point, we have to gamble a bit on what we have and save money in a place or two. Based on what Floyd, Broadway, Danks, Gio, etc. have done recently, which for many of them is simply "Not suck for an entire year", I think SP is a good place to try to do that. I can give the same logic for why I think we need Owens and Richar in the lineup next year; we just don't have the money to find someone better at every slot, and our money would be better spent finding another OF/#2 hitter, an upgraded SS, and another RHP out of the bullpen.

 

So, you're in favor of trading Garland, and then rounding out the rotation with Contreras and 2 of the youngsters ? I understand the thinkingl, especially if Kenny doesn't believe he can resign him, but I just have so much concern about having 3 guys I don't really trust.

 

I do agree with you on the need to save money in certain spots. That's why I would lean to giving Owens a shot in LF next season should they be able to add a CF, and making Richar the primary starter at 2B along with a young starter in the #5 hole. I really only see one expensive addition, and that looks to be CF.

 

[spiderman]

Agreed, although Garland is certainly a player they'll look to dump for multiple young Grade B arms.

 

Definitely (and maybe probable) that Garland will be dealt for 2 major league ready (or about ready) prospects.

 

[spiderman]

While your point is taken...I think it would be foolish to insist on pitching as a return for JG given the state of our minor leagues and the fact that we're mildly stronger on pitching talent than on position players. Naturally, if someone offers you a Kershaw you laugh all the way to the bank, but barring that, I would put a higher priority on finding someone who could play the field somewhere.

 

I think their first objective would be to acquire a young SS, but I don't think they'd pass on more pitching.

[spiderman]

It isn't a bad idea, however I don't think the WSox want to give Garland an MB contract. Not that he isn't worth it to them, but I don't think they want to tie up another SP for multiple seasons at 12 mil/year.

 

That's the going rate now though especially for someone as durable as he's been.

[Balta1701]

So, you're in favor of trading Garland, and then rounding out the rotation with Contreras and 2 of the youngsters ? I understand the thinkingl, especially if Kenny doesn't believe he can resign him, but I just have so much concern about having 3 guys I don't really trust.

 

I do agree with you on the need to save money in certain spots. That's why I would lean to giving Owens a shot in LF next season should they be able to add a CF, and making Richar the primary starter at 2B along with a young starter in the #5 hole. I really only see one expensive addition, and that looks to be CF.

If my options are trading no one and going with a rotation of MB, JV, JG, JC, and Danks/Floyd, versus trading JG and going with a rotation of MB, JV, JC, Danks, Floyd, then I would say yes, I would prefer the latter option due to salary constraints and our needs.

 

But that makes a couple assumptions. 1: I'm assuming we can't trade Jose without picking up a portion of his contract. If someone would give us a bag of balls for him but we didn't have to pick up the contract, then I'm fine with keeping JG. But if that won't happen, and if I were another GM it wouldn't, then I see little choice but to keep Jose. It also assumes we could get a fair deal for Garland where we brought back some legit talent; if that wouldn't happen, then hold him and take the draft pick.

 

Yes, going with that 2 kid rotation and Jose is a big gamble. It's safer to go in with Jon. But when I look at the roster, I think it's a much bigger gamble to not upgrade our position players or to keep that much money locked up in average guys in the rotation than it is to go with the kids there. At least if the kids fail...they're bloody cheap.

[rockren]

That's the going rate now though especially for someone as durable as he's been.

 

Agreed, but at the same time, after signing all of their pitchers to multiple yr/double digit per year contracts and getting burned...I don't think they'll do it again. I really think they'll go a different route this time. Re-signing MB and Javy to those big deals is probably all they want to do.

 

KW will have to take the Jerry Angelo approach at some point and say, "You can't have your cake and eat it, too."

 

He's going to have to rely on guys like Danks and Gio to play big rolls on our big league club sooner rather than later.

[Chisoxfn]

With those rumors of Hunter possibly getting 6 years, I don't think the White Sox would be willing to do that (smartly) too so I really think that CF is more likely to be filled through a trade with somebody like Coco Crisp. I know Rowand is probably next on the free agent list in CF, but is really worth $10-11 million a year over 4 or 5 seasons ?

 

As far as pitching, I just don't think this team will be near the top of the division if they have to depend on both Gavin Floyd and John Denks as the #4 and #5 starters.

 

If the White Sox are unable to sign Hunter, might they be willing to look at resigning Garland instead with this money ? Just an idea, but it's hard to compete with a mediocre starting rotation.

I'd go 4/48 with Rowand and hope he will be more like he was this past year. I don't know if his success was due to some sort of adjusmtent in his swing but you really can't argue his numbers (they were stellar). He'd be able to fill one of the up the middle positions for a number of years and bring back a good team player and a fan favorite (it seems like a win win...yes it may be too much money but the reality is if your gonna buy a player its gonna cost a good deal and the Sox don't have the farm system to be able to buy too much using prospects).

[greg775]

So, you're in favor of trading Garland, and then rounding out the rotation with Contreras and 2 of the youngsters ?

 

On paper, that is one bad rotation.

[kwolf68]

 

I think they are a mess, but like some said let's see what we can put together by ST.

 

I honestly believe the Sox are probably going to get older, slower, with more injury issues by going after players on the downside. What little talent we have remaining in our minors will probably be jetisoned for the flavor of the week, circa 2002.

 

If I am wrong and the Sox go after younger and better athletes and fill out our roster then maybe not so much a mess, but our minors are in shambles and Sox brass is in the 'lets go for it' mindset, which in my view isn't based in reality and is more an attempt to hoodwink Sox fans into dropping their scratch on laborious station to station baseball with players who may be on the downside of their career.

 

Im still excited about this franchise however, because 2005 wasn't so long ago.

[greg775]

I honestly believe the Sox are probably going to get older, slower, with more injury issues by going after players on the downside

 

That would be an awful scenario.

If that is true, I would think most of the Sox season ticket holders would want to bail.

Watching slow plodders when there is not a live ball can't be fun.

Hopefully the ball will be alive next year and jump off the bats of Thome, Dye, Paul, AJP and Fields.

Even Uribe fashions himself power more than anything else.

Those guys are all slow. If they are not whacking it out of the park they are worthless.

 

[Balta1701]

I honestly believe the Sox are probably going to get older, slower, with more injury issues by going after players on the downside.

[The Critic]

The deal today moves them one step closer to being a mess.

Dealing a young(ish) middle-of-the-rotation pitcher for a 33-year-old shortstop is not a good thing.

Pitching is always said to be the most valuable and sought-after commodity in baseball, and that's all the Sox could get for a guy like Garland?

It's like KW didn't even shop around.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

In answer to the original post - does a bear s*** in the woods ?

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I think after they trade Crede, they'll sign Ron Cey to play third base. Fields needs to go to Charlotte for more seasoning. Then, they'll sign Manny Mota for LF and bring back Julio Franco for second base.

 

You don't want too much youth on your team. It messes up your scorecard with all these young guys circling the bases.

[spiderman]

I have to say, this only brings up more questions.

 

Cabrera had a good season, but unless we're only paying him $4-5 million, and saving $6 or $7 million, I'm a bit confused as I expected Garland to be dealt for 2 younger players, certainly not a 33 year old SS.

 

What does this mean for Uribe ? Are we going to pay him $4.5 million to be a backup OR does he play 2B ? Can he play 2B ? I can't imagine him after much of a trading market.

 

In Cabrera, you'd figure he'd be a #2 type hitter so I'm assuming that we still are on the look-out for a lead-off hitter.

 

As for the rotation, it appears they are committing to 3) Contreras 4) Denks 5) Floyd (with competition from Broadway and Gonzalez, amongst others). I really don't see the White Sox being a serious contender with that rotation.

 

I realize there is a long way to go, and they will other moves, but their current team is probably worse than last season's without a solid #3 starter in Garland.

[whitesoxfan101]

OF COURSE we are a mess, we're the AL San Francisco Giants. The sooner people realize 2005 was an anomoly and our GM is terrible at his job, the better, especially when it comes to the owner. Me (along with many others) said the dark ages are nigh last season, and it continues to look that way. We are old, in a b**** of a division, and have no farm system while having a huge payroll full of overpaid 30 somethings. I guess that's reason for optimism. Come October of 2008, it will be 8 years of KW with 7 Octobers at home, and a system that is a mess. Great.

Edited November 19, 2007 by whitesoxfan101