Are the White Sox a Mess ?

[PAUL KONERKO 14]

Except our whole roster isn't 34 or older.

[witesoxfan]

In answer to the original post - does a bear s*** in the woods ?

 

Polar bears don't

[greg775]

I love the way whenever KW makes a s*** trade the consensus is to wait and see what his real master plan is.

The master plan was to get a 33 year old light hitting shortstop for a major pitcher

in a year not much pitching is available.

He got abused on this trade.

[YASNY]

I love the way whenever KW makes a s*** trade the consensus is to wait and see what his real master plan is.

The master plan was to get a 33 year old light hitting shortstop for a major pitcher

in a year not much pitching is available.

He got abused on this trade.

 

I think we all know your view of the trade by now.

[WilliamTell]

I won't decide if we are a mess until Spring Training comes, but right now I think we're closer to a mess than the real deal.

[greg775]

I really hate to be a negative asshole and will probably stop this, after this post, but ...

Cleveland just signed Kobayashi. Why didn't we sign him?????

Our GM was too busy getting his butt handed to him in a bag in the Cabrera trade.

 

Indians import: Cleveland signs Japanese closer Masahide Kobayashi to 2-year deal

Eds: AMs.

AP Photo CD105, CD102, NY164

By TOM WITHERS

AP Sports Writer

CLEVELAND (AP) — Not to be confused with his hot-dog chomping countryman, this Kobayashi might make late innings easier to stomach for the Cleveland Indians.

Looking to strengthen the back end of their bullpen and add insurance for closer Joe Borowski, the Indians signed Japanese free agent Masahide Kobayashi to a $6.25 million, two-year contract on Tuesday.

The deal includes a $3.25 million club option for 2010 with a $250,000 buyout.

The 33-year-old Kobayashi spent the past nine seasons with the Chiba Lotte Marines, currently managed by Bobby Valentine. The right-handed reliever is one of three pitchers in Japanese baseball history with more than 200 saves.

He will join Cleveland’s bullpen as a setup man for Borowski, who in his first season with the Indians led the AL with 45 saves — many of them shaky ones. Cleveland recently exercised Borowski’s $4 million option for 2008.

“This is a guy who has extensive closing experience,” Indians general manager Mark Shapiro said at a news conference to introduce Kobayashi. “I view him in the upper echelon of guys who were available on the market.”

Kobayashi is the first Japanese player signed by the Indians. The club has scouted him for several seasons.

Cleveland had one of the top bullpens in the AL this year, but as Shapiro has learned, injuries and ineffectiveness are two factors that can pop up on a team at any time.

“I don’t think we’ll ever be satisfied with our bullpen,” he said. “We’ll continue to work to reinforce and today was a big step.”

Manager Eric Wedge can give the ball to Kobayashi in the seventh and eighth innings. He’ll be a nice complement for right-hander Rafael Betancourt and lefty Rafael Perez, who were two of the league’s top setup men last season.

“If we’re as good a team as we think we’re going to be, there are going to be many opportunities to pitch in meaningful situations in the late innings,” Shapiro said. “That’s what we envision for him.”

Kobayashi has saved at least 20 games in each of the last seven seasons.

The Indians, who took World Series champion Boston to Game 7 of the AL championship series, are hoping they can follow the success the Red Sox had in signing Japanese pitchers. Starter Daisuke Matsuzaka and reliever Hideki Okajima were instrumental in helping the Red Sox win their second Series title in four years.

Last season, Kobayashi went 2-7 with a 3.61 ERA and 27 saves in 49 appearances. He was on the disabled list in September with a minor neck injury but finished the regular season on the active roster and pitched in the playoffs.

Kobayashi relies mainly on a slider as his out pitch. His fastball has been clocked in the mid-90s (mph) and he also throws a splitter.

“No, I don’t throw the gyroball,” Kobayashi said, referring to Matsuzaka’s famed pitch.

Kobayashi went 36-34 with a 2.79 ERA and 227 saves in 303 games for Chiba Lotte. In 2005, he led the Pacific League with 34 saves. He was a member of Japan’s Olympic baseball team in 2004.

Some Japanese players have had a difficult time adjusting to the cultural change in the U.S., but Kobayashi anticipates blending into his new surroundings.

“I don’t know what’s going to happen but I believe I will be OK in getting along with my teammates,” he said through a translator.

Kobayashi has already shown he has a sense of humor. During his first news conference, he was asked what he knows about Cleveland.

“Beautiful lake,” he said, cracking a smile, “and the city has the Indians.”

Shapiro said the Indians, who have had experience in helping international players adjust to the U.S., plan to hire a full-time translator to help Kobayashi throughout the season.

“Baseball is rapidly becoming a multicultural game,” said Shapiro, noting the Indians 40-man roster is dotted with players from Venezuela, the Dominican Republic and Korea. “Our players are going to embrace him and make him feel like part of the team. We will make his transition as smooth as we can.”

Because Kobayashi was an unrestricted free agent, Cleveland did not have to pay a posting fee to Chiba Lotte to negotiate with him.

 

[Kalapse]

The Indians were able to offer Kobayashi a chance to close for them either next year around May when Borowski's ERA is in the 6's or in 2009 when Borowski is out of baseball. The Sox couldn't make the same promise so they didn't have a shot.

 

But no I'm sure it's more plausible that KW was too busy giving away great pitchers for old shortstops to even notice that Kobayashi was available via free agency.

[santo=dorf]

This team is in a huge mess right now, but by March Ozzie will have his team full of free swinging hackers who make a lot of outs.

[VAfan]

It has been a long time since I have posted on this site because it is so depressing watching the Sox go into the crapper so quickly after we finally won a World Series.

 

Add me to the list of fans who believe trading a young, skilled, veteran pitcher who won 18 games two years in a row to a team that will kill us with him, in return for a 33-year-old shortstop, is a horrible move. I don't care whether Cabrera is better than Juan Uribe. If we sign him past next year, we'll be looking at investing a lot of money in a player of declining skills. (Just like we've invested a lot of money in Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, Juan Uribe, Jose Contreras, and AJ Pierzynski.)

 

I remain convinced that this team started to fall apart when KW dealt El Duque, Vizcaino, and Chris Young to the Diamondbacks for Javier Vazquez. The Dbacks had to wait an extra year for Young because he got hurt. But this year he helped lead them to the NLCS with his 30+ HR power, speed at the top of the order, and great defense.

 

Had we not made that deal, several dominoes would have fallen differently. We could have used Vizcaino in 2006 to help a bullpen that fell apart when Politte's arm fell off. We wouldn't have suffered through Vazquez's 6th inning meltdowns all year. Brandon McCarthy could have been in the rotation instead of the pen, or at least split starting duties with El Duque. Or we could have traded El Duque to the Mets and gotten more. Plus, we wouldn't have spent $10 million/year on JV -- money that would have been better used elsewhere.

 

Now, the great fix is to trade young starting pitching for a mid-30s player. On top of that, our only other plan seems to be to try to sign another mid-30s guy to play the position Chris Young could be playing at less cost for 6 years than we will pay his replacement EACH year.

 

We've had all these prospect pitchers -- none of which have panned out, mind you -- but the one time we get a legit 5-tool position player we trade him for a mediocre pitcher (who had one good year this year, but otherwise should easily be replacable by one of the pitchers we drafted). This is not a winning plan.

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!

 

It's hard to be a Sox fan again.

 

(Still, I can never be too hard on Ozzie and KW, because they brought us a World Title for once in my life.)

[29andPoplar]

It has been a long time since I have posted on this site because it is so depressing watching the Sox go into the crapper so quickly after we finally won a World Series.

 

Add me to the list of fans who believe trading a young, skilled, veteran pitcher who won 18 games two years in a row to a team that will kill us with him, in return for a 33-year-old shortstop, is a horrible move. I don't care whether Cabrera is better than Juan Uribe. If we sign him past next year, we'll be looking at investing a lot of money in a player of declining skills. (Just like we've invested a lot of money in Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, Juan Uribe, Jose Contreras, and AJ Pierzynski.)

 

I remain convinced that this team started to fall apart when KW dealt El Duque, Vizcaino, and Chris Young to the Diamondbacks for Javier Vazquez. The Dbacks had to wait an extra year for Young because he got hurt. But this year he helped lead them to the NLCS with his 30+ HR power, speed at the top of the order, and great defense.

 

Had we not made that deal, several dominoes would have fallen differently. We could have used Vizcaino in 2006 to help a bullpen that fell apart when Politte's arm fell off. We wouldn't have suffered through Vazquez's 6th inning meltdowns all year. Brandon McCarthy could have been in the rotation instead of the pen, or at least split starting duties with El Duque. Or we could have traded El Duque to the Mets and gotten more. Plus, we wouldn't have spent $10 million/year on JV -- money that would have been better used elsewhere.

 

Now, the great fix is to trade young starting pitching for a mid-30s player. On top of that, our only other plan seems to be to try to sign another mid-30s guy to play the position Chris Young could be playing at less cost for 6 years than we will pay his replacement EACH year.

 

We've had all these prospect pitchers -- none of which have panned out, mind you -- but the one time we get a legit 5-tool position player we trade him for a mediocre pitcher (who had one good year this year, but otherwise should easily be replacable by one of the pitchers we drafted). This is not a winning plan.

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!

 

It's hard to be a Sox fan again.

 

I wouldn't be too sure you're right about all this. You have no more clue than anyone else what could or couldn't have been done, nor a clue how the team will be constructed.

 

After all, you are the guy who said, "What's sick is we are letting Buehrle go, while extending Vazquez ... SICK SAD SICK SAD. I have a 4 yr. old son I've tried to turn into a Sox fan. Now, I don't have a single argument for why he should root for the Sox. Frankly the Nationals are more worthy of fan support. Buehrle will be at 280+ wins at age 40. Again, the sick thing is almost 200 of those wins will be for another team."

 

Maybe it's better to wait and see how it turns out. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKK !!

[witesoxfan]

I wouldn't be too sure you're right about all this. You have no more clue than anyone else what could or couldn't have been done, nor a clue how the team will be constructed.

 

After all, you are the guy who said, "What's sick is we are letting Buehrle go, while extending Vazquez ... SICK SAD SICK SAD. I have a 4 yr. old son I've tried to turn into a Sox fan. Now, I don't have a single argument for why he should root for the Sox. Frankly the Nationals are more worthy of fan support. Buehrle will be at 280+ wins at age 40. Again, the sick thing is almost 200 of those wins will be for another team."

 

Maybe it's better to wait and see how it turns out. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKK !!

 

When people seem to be sarcastically saying "Logic has no place here" they are actually not being sarcastic, that is the truth. Logic has no place on these boards.

[greg775]

The Indians were able to offer Kobayashi a chance to close for them either next year around May when Borowski's ERA is in the 6's or in 2009 when Borowski is out of baseball. The Sox couldn't make the same promise so they didn't have a shot.

 

You are probably right, but I don't know why we couldn't pay him a bit more and tell him he could be a back end of the bullpen guy for the Sox as well.

Not a closer, but if he produces, he'd get a ton of innings and if he's good, maybe a WS ring.

Not to mention Iguchi loved it in Chicago, etc.

[Balta1701]

You are probably right, but I don't know why we couldn't pay him a bit more and tell him he could be a back end of the bullpen guy for the Sox as well.

Not a closer, but if he produces, he'd get a ton of innings and if he's good, maybe a WS ring.

Not to mention Iguchi loved it in Chicago, etc.

If he were to spend a year or two closing for the Indians, compared with being a setup man for us...if he succeeds at that job then he hits FA at 35 or so looking for the kind of contract Rivera just got, as opposed to the one that Linebrink will get. That's probably $20-$30 million of motivation just for being a 9th inning guy instead of an 8th inning guy.

[greg775]

But Cleveland has a closer as well. Did the Tribe promise him they'd skip over Joe?

 

[Kalapse]

But Cleveland has a closer as well. Did the Tribe promise him they'd skip over Joe?

Joe Borowski is a walking pile of s***, now that the Indians have a seemingly legitimate closing option in Kobayashi they can actually make the switch once Borowski gives up 20 runs in the month of April in 2008. '08 is for sure Borowski's final season in Cleveland so their closing job WILL be open by opening day 2009 (at the latest) unlike the White Sox who actually have stability in that department.

[VAfan]

I wouldn't be too sure you're right about all this. You have no more clue than anyone else what could or couldn't have been done, nor a clue how the team will be constructed.

 

After all, you are the guy who said, "What's sick is we are letting Buehrle go, while extending Vazquez ... SICK SAD SICK SAD. I have a 4 yr. old son I've tried to turn into a Sox fan. Now, I don't have a single argument for why he should root for the Sox. Frankly the Nationals are more worthy of fan support. Buehrle will be at 280+ wins at age 40. Again, the sick thing is almost 200 of those wins will be for another team."

 

Maybe it's better to wait and see how it turns out. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKK !!

 

 

GREAT RESEARCH! Nice job pulling up one of my old comments.

 

But what exactly are you saying? Seems like my position is pretty consistent. I wanted us to keep Buehrle (amazingly we did), but have always thought Vazquez is not much better than a .500 pitcher who melts down under pressure. And we traded the best prospect in our system to get him when we should have been replacing his role with one of the seeming thousands of pitching prospects we've drafted over the last 6-7 years.

 

Trading youth for mid-30s veterans seemed like a good idea to KW because he wanted desperately to repeat. But we've all seen how quickly that concept turns to mush. Continuing down that path will only further cripple the Sox. Sure, we may get back to .500 because we've replaced a horrible offensive anchor in our lineup. But we aren't going to have another shot at a World Series by fielding the over-the-hill gang.

[29andPoplar]

GREAT RESEARCH! Nice job pulling up one of my old comments.

 

But what exactly are you saying? Seems like my position is pretty consistent. I wanted us to keep Buehrle (amazingly we did), but have always thought Vazquez is not much better than a .500 pitcher who melts down under pressure. And we traded the best prospect in our system to get him when we should have been replacing his role with one of the seeming thousands of pitching prospects we've drafted over the last 6-7 years.

 

Trading youth for mid-30s veterans seemed like a good idea to KW because he wanted desperately to repeat. But we've all seen how quickly that concept turns to mush. Continuing down that path will only further cripple the Sox. Sure, we may get back to .500 because we've replaced a horrible offensive anchor in our lineup. But we aren't going to have another shot at a World Series by fielding the over-the-hill gang.

 

Well seeing as you're a great one for bumping up old threads and saying "see, I told you so!" I thought I'd return the favor.

 

And you completely missed the point. It has nothing to do with the consistency of your position, and everything to do with how off base your comments were, and are. Why don't you wait and see what they do for once, before spouting off about how bad it is to be a Sox fan. Your theories of what will happen to the franchise is only a prediction, and your predictions have been proven very wrong in the past. In fact, here's another one:

 

"Boneheaded stubborness has wrecked the franchise. We really are going to send out everyone but Danks and Fields and start all over." Bzzzzt, wrong.

 

Seriously ... sit back and wait to see what they do before pronouncing all is lost.

Edited November 21, 2007 by 29andPoplar

[greg775]

oe Borowski is a walking pile of s***, now that the Indians have a seemingly legitimate closing option in Kobayashi they can actually make the switch once Borowski gives up 20 runs in the month of April in 2008.

 

OK, so back to my original question. Did they promise Hot Dog man he would pass

Borowski or not? Even you agree Borowski is the closer in April.

The Sox just can't make the right moves. They needed this guy and didn't get him.

Living in Cleveland vs. Chicago ... they couldn't sell that as well?

I think the Sox had a lot to sell. It's all about money anyway. They should have offered

more than Cleve and they would have gotten the guy.

Kenny's bullpen aside from Jenks is a piece of s***. He better improve it, especially

losing Garland and starting 5 inning max guys in Danks, Jose C and Floyd.

[Kalapse]

OK, so back to my original question. Did they promise Hot Dog man he would pass

Borowski or not? Even you agree Borowski is the closer in April.

The Sox just can't make the right moves. They needed this guy and didn't get him.

Living in Cleveland vs. Chicago ... they couldn't sell that as well?

I think the Sox had a lot to sell. It's all about money anyway. They should have offered

more than Cleve and they would have gotten the guy.

Kenny's bullpen aside from Jenks is a piece of s***. He better improve it, especially

losing Garland and starting 5 inning max guys in Danks, Jose C and Floyd.

I don't know why I bother conversing with you, you have no idea how things work and it gets old having to spell out every little thing over and over again. I don't know what the f*** they promised him, those sort of things don't often make it to the media until after the switch has been made and I personally was not in on the negotiations so I have no inside information. If you really can't understand why a Japanese career closer would like to sign with the second best team in baseball, a team with an incredibly shaky closer, a team that really has no other candidates to close out games, a team that probably promised him the closer's job by the second year of his deal (at the latest), a team that has very good young talent, a team that will easily compete for a World Series next season over a 90 loss 4th place team that already has a 26 year old great closer who's 4 years away from free agency then you know what? I can't help you.

[greg775]

If you really can't understand why a Japanese career closer would like to sign with the second best team in baseball, a team with an incredibly shaky closer, a team that really has no other candidates to close out games, a team that probably promised him the closer's job by the second year of his deal (at the latest), a team that has very good young talent, a team that will easily compete for a World Series next season over a 90 loss 4th place team that already has a 26 year old great closer who's 4 years away from free agency then you know what? I can't help you.

 

If you really can't understand why a Japanese career closer would not like to sign with the 2005 WS champs that need relievers, need relievers to eat up many many innings, a team in a city that beats the pants off the dump called Cleveland, a city that two players named Shingo and Iguchi fell in love with, a team that can compete for a WS title with proper tinkering (spending money), then I can't help you.

Money talks. We didn't offer enough.

my opinion is Kenny missed the boat and failed here.

If you disagree fine. I can handle differences of opinion apparently unlike you at times.

Edited November 21, 2007 by greg775

[santo=dorf]

If you really can't understand why a Japanese career closer would not like to sign with the 2005 WS champs that need relievers, need relievers to eat up many many innings, a team in a city that beats the pants off the dump called Cleveland, a city that two players named Shingo and Iguchi fell in love with, a team that can compete for a WS title with proper tinkering (spending money), then I can't help you.

Money talks. We didn't offer enough.

my opinion is Kenny missed the boat and failed here.

If you disagree fine. I can handle differences of opinion apparently unlike you at times.

...and just how much of that 2005 WS team is left over greg?

 

Baseball changes so much from year to year. This isn't the NBA from 1970-1988 or whatever

[greg775]

True Santo, but I can't believe the reasons he gave for wanting to join the Tribe were impossible to overcome.

I mean if I were a salesman I'd sure rather sell the product Chicago has to offer (in the big scheme of things) than Cleveland. Yes things change quickly in baseball and we

could be on top soon again if we sign some impact players.

 

-- This is a guy I've never seen pitch and who could suck. I'm assuming he's good and

worth this argument to begin with. He might be a hack.

[whitesoxfan101]

Step 1: Trade a young inning eater pitcher for a 33 year old SS who's VORP is Juan Uribe ish.

Step 2: Give a 31 year old RP a 4 year contract for over 4 million a year, despite his declining K rate and his entire span of effective work being in the opposite of The Cell (a pitcher haven, NL park in Petco).

Step 3: Overpay for Aaron Rowand now that Hunter is not available.

 

Yep, AL San Francisco Giants here we come!! Mess, we've already arrived there long ago.

Edited November 22, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[max power]

Really hunter would be more giant like than rowand, we haven't signed him and 31 isn't old for a reliever. Keep complaining though because the offseason is over and you're good at it.

[scenario]

Seriously ... sit back and wait to see what they do before pronouncing all is lost.

 

I don't know...

 

If everyone on the board followed that advice, we'd lose half the posters.