Are the White Sox a Mess ?

[Chombi]

Williams is a big talker-with bus fare in his pocket

 

Truthfully, that is right.

 

He has a reputation as a guy who makes moves. Small or large, they are in his arsenal if you will.

 

Right now, he isn't capable of landing a big fish in trades it appears but teams have no problem using him for their benefit because his background is something that makes other teams believe a deal with the Sox may be legit.

 

If KW is smart, you just scratch as many big money stars as we can from this team and fire a new missle. If we can get 3 or 4 real quality pieces for our vets (Paulie, Dye, Crede, Cabrera, Thome is he opens his clause, maybe another SP in MB or JV...maybe even Jenks...which i'll get to).

 

In doing so we can probably have several holes filled with young talent. If we go for less overall and just grab the best mlb ready guys we can, those guys can be ready to roll in 2-3 seasons. In doing so you keep Fields, Gio, Quentin, DLS and whomever else is around and we may have ourselves a ballclub.

 

We can hit the Free agent market hard and fill other holes. Doubt we will ever land a big name but maybe we will with the extra money to spend.

 

I mentioned Jenks in the veteran thing because in 2-3 years will we be looking to deal him anyways. No one wants to pay a closer that kind of money and we certainly won't. I've pointed to his weight and arm issues before when I say we should consider it but he is years from FA so we could really get a lot for him IMO.

 

My posts are getting redundant tonight because they have been echoing the same fire cry the last few times. I appologize if it's getting to you but plan A and B haven't worked out for us. I'm am sure none of our plans factored in the plans of other teams but it may have to after today. The division was tough enough and it got worse today with no signs of slowing down.

 

Time for plan F. F for Firesale. Someone start a thread with that as the headline. I think I will after I take some medicine and eat dinner. If someone does make it, I would like credit for the ever so creative name.

[spiderman]

Kenny's biggest problem has turned out to be that he seems to have unconditional believe that this team is a good team, and doesn't major changes. It hasn't been a good team since the all-star break in 2006 yet Kenny is on record several times, including just a few days ago, as saying his team is good, and upgraded from last off-season.

 

They seem to believe that every player who struggled last season will rebound, and while possible, is that going to be enough to overcome a shaky rotation, and a bullpen that still looks very questionable, not to mention Cleveland and Detroit in the division.

 

I think the White Sox, as we stand today, are a 4th place team in the AL Central.

[witesoxfan]

Kenny's biggest problem has turned out to be that he seems to have unconditional believe that this team is a good team, and doesn't major changes.

 

Are you f***ing kidding me right now? He didn't think it needed major changes, yet was in the Torii Hunter bidding until the end and tried to acquire Miguel Cabrera?

 

KW realizes this team sucks, missed out on his targets, and is giving the company line right now to keep fans interested so he won't lose revenue. He also realizes it will take nothing short of a mini-miracle for this team to compete, but he's not about to tell that to the media.

 

KW's failed the two past offseasons, but he's not a moron people. If you think so, you need to do some checking yourself. He didn't just luck his way into a degree from Stanford.

 

[sircaffey]

Are you f***ing kidding me right now? He didn't think it needed major changes, yet was in the Torii Hunter bidding until the end and tried to acquire Miguel Cabrera?

 

KW realizes this team sucks, missed out on his targets, and is giving the company line right now to keep fans interested so he won't lose revenue. He also realizes it will take nothing short of a mini-miracle for this team to compete, but he's not about to tell that to the media.

 

KW's failed the two past offseasons, but he's not a moron people. If you think so, you need to do some checking yourself. He didn't just luck his way into a degree from Stanford.

 

What does Stanford have to do with anything? They offer scouting classes there? A person who couldn't get into your local community college could be the best GM out there as long as he evaluates baseball talent well and knows what it takes to create a good baseball team. Our GM is the same one that believed our bullpen was going to be very good last year. It sucked. Stanford didn't help much in that department, did it? There is little doubt in my mind that KW believes he has a good team. Whether he still believes we can compete after the moves DET made, I don't know. But he thinks this is a good team, no doubt.

Edited December 17, 2007 by sircaffey

[witesoxfan]

What does Stanford have to do with anything? They offer scouting classes there? A person who couldn't get into your local community college could be the best GM out there as long as he evaluates baseball talent well and knows what it takes to create a good baseball team. Our GM is the same one that believed our bullpen was going to be very good last year. It sucked. Stanford didn't help much in that department, did it? There is little doubt in my mind that KW believes he has a good team. Whether he still believes we can compete after the moves DET made, I don't know. But he thinks this is a good team, no doubt.

 

Morons don't graduate from Stanford.

 

But seriously, is he supposed to say that he feels the team is going to suck? No, he's going to try and build off of the 2005 and 2006 season; the bandwagon fan brings in mad revenue.

 

You can also count me in as one of the people who thought the bullpen last year was going to be very good. It failed; whoop dee s***. I don't recall you being here clamoring over how bad it was going to be.

 

There's no way he thinks this is a good team; why do you think he didn't jump to conclusions and bring in Rowand or Jones? or why he hasn't strengthened the bench or brought in depth to the middle of the infield? The opportunity has presented itself, and those moves would have pushed a team that is "close" to "over the top;" if he really felt this team was that good, why would he have not made one of those moves? Why?

 

He's been a bad GM, but don't confuse Ken Williams with a moron; look beyond the black and white and read into his moves (or lack there of) and his reasons for saying the team will be good. It's a business, and all he's trying to do is maximize profit. If the team sucks, but people still show up, it's still money in the bank. Dishonest, absolutely, but it's money all the same.

 

Beyond that, the trade for Orlando Cabrera puts the Sox in a slightly better position to rebuild the minor league system through the draft or give the Sox a cog at SS for the next few years. Garland would have had to have repeated his 2005 performance to get anywhere close to that.

 

I don't think he thinks the Sox are good, and all he has done this offseason is put the Sox in a position to compete if Jerry Owens learns how to turn water into wine. His moves suggest that he's building towards the future, and he hasn't brought in any contracts that will damper the team's chances in the long-run.

[iamshack]

What does Stanford have to do with anything? They offer scouting classes there? A person who couldn't get into your local community college could be the best GM out there as long as he evaluates baseball talent well and knows what it takes to create a good baseball team. Our GM is the same one that believed our bullpen was going to be very good last year. It sucked. Stanford didn't help much in that department, did it? There is little doubt in my mind that KW believes he has a good team. Whether he still believes we can compete after the moves DET made, I don't know. But he thinks this is a good team, no doubt.

 

Take a quick look around mlb- check out the academic resumes of all the new, young GM's- and then tell me that top of the line educations are not extremely valuable in the current industry landscape. Check where Shapiro, Epstein, and many of the other younger GM's attended college. The days of hiring front office execs strictly because they are "baseball people" is over.

[Dick Allen]

Take a quick look around mlb- check out the academic resumes of all the new, young GM's- and then tell me that top of the line educations are not extremely valuable in the current industry landscape. Check where Shapiro, Epstein, and many of the other younger GM's attended college. The days of hiring front office execs strictly because they are "baseball people" is over.

KW went to college 2 years.

Edited December 17, 2007 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

KW went to college 2 years.

 

I never mentioned KW as being a "graduate."

[elrockinMT]

The Sox will be in it next year either at the top, middle or bottom. Right now we have the potential to compete for any place in the standings. (supposed to have been in green) Confusing? Yes! I do think our team has talent, but who knows how all these moves will work out for any team. You have to be positive and I am sure that's what KW is doing, but there sure seems to be a lot of plans that went out the window .

Edited December 17, 2007 by elrockinMT

[Kid Gleason]

We don't really equate college or college attended to intelligence, do we?

[hitlesswonder]

We don't really equate college or college attended to intelligence, do we?

 

I would hope not -- in my experience there's very little correlation if any at all between college attendance and intelligence.

And for anyone saying that Williams not graduating is a sign of stupidity, go tell that to Bill Gates.

[iamshack]

I would hope not -- in my experience there's very little correlation if any at all between college attendance and intelligence.

And for anyone saying that Williams not graduating is a sign of stupidity, go tell that to Bill Gates.

 

I think the point here is that it's pretty clear when you hear Williams speak or read his quotes, he comes off as very intelligent and articulate. And to form an opinion otherwise seems to be baseless. It's ridiculous to refer to KW as "not too bright."

[spiderman]

Are you f***ing kidding me right now? He didn't think it needed major changes, yet was in the Torii Hunter bidding until the end and tried to acquire Miguel Cabrera?

 

KW realizes this team sucks, missed out on his targets, and is giving the company line right now to keep fans interested so he won't lose revenue. He also realizes it will take nothing short of a mini-miracle for this team to compete, but he's not about to tell that to the media.

 

KW's failed the two past offseasons, but he's not a moron people. If you think so, you need to do some checking yourself. He didn't just luck his way into a degree from Stanford.

 

By major changes, I meant an overhaul of the existing team, and his goal was to add on to the current team, which has not been a good team for the last season and a half.

 

If you think that Kenny believes his team stinks, then I'd be interested in your response to Kenny's comments last week:

We still have a pretty darn good baseball team," Williams said.

 

Seems pretty clear to me that he DOESN'T think his team stinks, and he has been saying this for awhile. I don't believe it has anything to do with PR, instead much more to do with his personal believe in the 2005 team that still has several parts on the current roster.

 

I also think that Kenny wouldn't be signing Linebrink to long-term deals or trading for 33 year old SS's if he thought this team couldn't compete so I think you're right in that team isn't very good (I say 4th place), but Kenny is clearly not on board with that line of thought.

 

For the record, I haven't called Kenny a moron, nor am I calling for his firing.

[Dick Allen]

I would hope not -- in my experience there's very little correlation if any at all between college attendance and intelligence.

And for anyone saying that Williams not graduating is a sign of stupidity, go tell that to Bill Gates.

I didn't say it was a sign of stupidity, I said you can hardly call him a "Stanford guy" like has been described to verify his intelligence, and you cannot compare his academic "resume" with guys like Epstein or his ilk, because it is not there. What I have referred to as "stupidity" is saying his pitching staff as is, will not be a problem, as well as some of the other comments that he has made. Using the other side of the coin, just because he throws out a few big words now and then, that doesn't mean he is a genius either.

[Dick Allen]

Morons don't graduate from Stanford.

Neither did Kenny.

 

[spiderman]

There's no way he thinks this is a good team; why do you think he didn't jump to conclusions and bring in Rowand or Jones? or why he hasn't strengthened the bench or brought in depth to the middle of the infield? The opportunity has presented itself, and those moves would have pushed a team that is "close" to "over the top;" if he really felt this team was that good, why would he have not made one of those moves? Why?

 

There was never any interest in Andruw Jones, and Aaron Rowand wanted more years than the White Sox were willing to offer.

 

As for middle IF's, I don't think he's really in position to do anything there until he figures out Uribe's future. Right now, we also have Pablo coming back as well so has 2 backup IF's, but getting rid of Uribe's contract is probably proving more difficult than originally thought (another really bad move by Williams because as we stand today, we have about $12-13 million committed to our SS position).

 

 

 

[sircaffey]

Morons don't graduate from Stanford.

 

But seriously, is he supposed to say that he feels the team is going to suck? No, he's going to try and build off of the 2005 and 2006 season; the bandwagon fan brings in mad revenue.

 

You can also count me in as one of the people who thought the bullpen last year was going to be very good. It failed; whoop dee s***. I don't recall you being here clamoring over how bad it was going to be.

 

There's no way he thinks this is a good team; why do you think he didn't jump to conclusions and bring in Rowand or Jones? or why he hasn't strengthened the bench or brought in depth to the middle of the infield? The opportunity has presented itself, and those moves would have pushed a team that is "close" to "over the top;" if he really felt this team was that good, why would he have not made one of those moves? Why?

 

He's been a bad GM, but don't confuse Ken Williams with a moron; look beyond the black and white and read into his moves (or lack there of) and his reasons for saying the team will be good. It's a business, and all he's trying to do is maximize profit. If the team sucks, but people still show up, it's still money in the bank. Dishonest, absolutely, but it's money all the same.

 

Beyond that, the trade for Orlando Cabrera puts the Sox in a slightly better position to rebuild the minor league system through the draft or give the Sox a cog at SS for the next few years. Garland would have had to have repeated his 2005 performance to get anywhere close to that.

 

I don't think he thinks the Sox are good, and all he has done this offseason is put the Sox in a position to compete if Jerry Owens learns how to turn water into wine. His moves suggest that he's building towards the future, and he hasn't brought in any contracts that will damper the team's chances in the long-run.

 

First, KW didn't graduate from Stanford. I'm not saying Kenny is a moron. In fact, it appears he's a very articulate, intelligent man. There are many intelligent articulate baseball fans. That doesn't mean they would make good GMs.

 

As far as the bullpen goes, you would have to have a hell of a memory to remember what little old me thought of the bullpen. It doesn't matter what I thought because I'm not getting paid to make the decisions.

 

KW did strengthen the bench and the middle infield. He brought in Cabrera forcing Uribe to the bench. He didn't bring in a CF, yet, because the ones that he wanted were too expensive. You can't get around the budget no matter what you think of your team.

 

I don't see how bringing in a 33 year old SS and locking in an aging middle reliever for $19 mil is "building towards the future." If he was building for the future, he would have gotten a package for Garland that was meant for the future. He would not have brought in a player that would only be under contract for one season if he didn't think this team could compete in 2008. Generally you don't bring in players on the downside of their careers if you are building for the future, do you?

 

If you really think Garland was traded for Cabrera because of the extra draft pick you are grasping for straws. If KW really cares about the draft picks and building for the future, why did he sign a type A free agent middle reliever forfeiting an even higher pick? Sorry, I don't buy this crap that these moves were made for the future.

Edited December 17, 2007 by sircaffey

[spiderman]

First, KW didn't graduate from Stanford. Second, he wasn't accepted to Stanford because of his academics. Thirdly, I'm not saying Kenny is a moron. In fact, it appears he's a very articulate, intelligent man. There are many intelligent articulate baseball fans. That doesn't mean they would make good GMs.

 

As far as the bullpen goes, you would have to have a hell of a memory to remember what little old me thought of the bullpen. It doesn't matter what I thought because I'm not getting paid to make the decisions.

 

KW did strengthen the bench and the middle infield. He brought in Cabrera forcing Uribe to the bench. He didn't bring in a CF, yet, because the ones that he wanted were too expensive. You can't get around the budget no matter what you think of your team.

 

I don't see how bringing in a 33 year old SS and locking in an aging middle reliever for $19 mil is "building towards the future." If he was building for the future, he would have gotten a package for Garland that was meant for the future. He would not have brought in a player that would only be under contract for one season if he didn't think this team could compete in 2008. Generally you don't bring in players on the downside of their careers if you are building for the future, do you?

 

If you really think Garland was traded for Cabrera because of the extra draft pick you are grasping for straws. If KW really cares about the draft picks and building for the future, why did he sign a type A free agent middle reliever forfeiting an even higher pick? Sorry, I don't buy this crap that these moves were made for the future.

 

Good points - that is clearly not rebuilding, more reloading/adding on to what you currently have.

 

These moves were made to win now, not some secret rebuilding plan that nobody realizes is actually happening.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

As far as the bullpen goes, you would have to have a hell of a memory to remember what little old me thought of the bullpen. It doesn't matter what I thought because I'm not getting paid to make the decisions.

 

Well KW was wrong, but that wasn't the only thing he was wrong about going into last season; I think it's pretty much the consensus of the board that last year was terrible. The move I absolutely hated was Erstad, and my fears were unfortunately correct.

 

KW did strengthen the bench and the middle infield. He brought in Cabrera forcing Uribe to the bench. He didn't bring in a CF, yet, because the ones that he wanted were too expensive. You can't get around the budget no matter what you think of your team.

 

They resigned Uribe as an insurance policy in case they could not bring in a shortstop. That, too, was a miscalculation on his part. He was not resigned to a $4.5 mill deal with the intent to have him be a bench player.

 

I don't see how bringing in a 33 year old SS and locking in an aging middle reliever for $19 mil is "building towards the future." If he was building for the future, he would have gotten a package for Garland that was meant for the future. He would not have brought in a player that would only be under contract for one season if he didn't think this team could compete in 2008. Generally you don't bring in players on the downside of their careers if you are building for the future, do you?

 

Orlando Cabrera is going to be a Type A free agent; thus, if the Sox offer him arbitration, they'll almost certainly get two draft picks for him (as he almost certainly won't accept an offer of about $9 mill when his reputation will more than likely get him a multi-year deal at around $11 mill per). If they resign him, they have a shortstop for the next 3-4 years. That looks quite a bit like building towards the future, even if said player is on the wrong side of 30.

 

Linebrink isn't building towards the future, but it's not a burden of a contract. Two years from now it will be moveable, and he is an upgrade in the bullpen. The only downfall of the deal is the loss of the 2nd rounder.

 

If you really think Garland was traded for Cabrera because of the extra draft pick you are grasping for straws. If KW really cares about the draft picks and building for the future, why did he sign a type A free agent middle reliever forfeiting an even higher pick? Sorry, I don't buy this crap that these moves were made for the future.

 

He is an upgrade to the team - a pretty significant upgrade - and KW feels the downgrade from Garland to Floyd is not going to be that significant. We shall see about that. But when KW says "we have a pretty darn good team," what does that mean exactly? It's a statement that's vague as hell that the average person interprets as "the White Sox are going to be good" but what one who looks into what he's done and what he's saying says "good can mean a lot of things."

 

I do like how you make no mention of the moves for Richar and Quentin. Did he just make those moves because he felt compelled to do so? because he's building for the short-term?

 

There's no way KW feels this team is going to win the division, and I don't think you'll ever see him make a statement that says quite that. Any statement he makes will be vague as hell and will have many, many different interpretations with only one of those really being correct.

[sircaffey]

Well KW was wrong, but that wasn't the only thing he was wrong about going into last season; I think it's pretty much the consensus of the board that last year was terrible. The move I absolutely hated was Erstad, and my fears were unfortunately correct.

They resigned Uribe as an insurance policy in case they could not bring in a shortstop. That, too, was a miscalculation on his part. He was not resigned to a $4.5 mill deal with the intent to have him be a bench player.

Orlando Cabrera is going to be a Type A free agent; thus, if the Sox offer him arbitration, they'll almost certainly get two draft picks for him (as he almost certainly won't accept an offer of about $9 mill when his reputation will more than likely get him a multi-year deal at around $11 mill per). If they resign him, they have a shortstop for the next 3-4 years. That looks quite a bit like building towards the future, even if said player is on the wrong side of 30.

 

Linebrink isn't building towards the future, but it's not a burden of a contract. Two years from now it will be moveable, and he is an upgrade in the bullpen. The only downfall of the deal is the loss of the 2nd rounder.

He is an upgrade to the team - a pretty significant upgrade - and KW feels the downgrade from Garland to Floyd is not going to be that significant. We shall see about that. But when KW says "we have a pretty darn good team," what does that mean exactly? It's a statement that's vague as hell that the average person interprets as "the White Sox are going to be good" but what one who looks into what he's done and what he's saying says "good can mean a lot of things."

 

I do like how you make no mention of the moves for Richar and Quentin. Did he just make those moves because he felt compelled to do so? because he's building for the short-term?

 

There's no way KW feels this team is going to win the division, and I don't think you'll ever see him make a statement that says quite that. Any statement he makes will be vague as hell and will have many, many different interpretations with only one of those really being correct.

 

Until Uribe is traded then he's an improvement to the bench. None of us know if he was insurance or not. That is purely speculation. In fact, it's entirely possible that he resigned Uribe knowing he was going to make the Cabrera trade in a few days.

 

Yes, I know Cabrera will be type A, but that does not mean acquiring him was a move for the future. He's said he does not want to sign an extension before hitting the market. So looks like we will have to compete with everyone else which we could have done without trading Garland for him. If we wanted him for the future, we could have signed him after this coming year, but we also wanted him to compete in 2008. Why else acquire a rental player?

 

Re: Quentin/Richar...You seem to be missing the point. The point here is not that he is NOT keeping an eye on the future, it's that he's also trying to compete this year, and is making moves under the assumption that he can compete this year.

 

One last thing, just because KW was out trying to make big moves(signing Hunter, trading for Miguel) does not mean he does not think his current team can win. In 2006, he went out and got Thome and Vazquez. Did he do that because he thought his current reigning World Series Champs couldn't win? Of course not.

Edited December 17, 2007 by sircaffey