Kalapse Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 10:58 AM) Sort of and not really. It's quite mysterious, really. For example, in this year's rankings, A-Rod wasn't ranked as the best player -- I believe it was Ortiz. It's a clusterf*** of a system that needs to be fixed, as crappy middle relievers like Scott Linebrink get two picks and average starting pitchers like Jon Garland are somehow only type B's (which don't give compensation anymore, IIRC). You get a sandwich pick for the loss of a type B free agent but the team that signs said player does not lose a draft pick for signing him. I think I'm going to put this somewhere just for reference: Type A: Top 20% - 1st round pick and a sandwich pick. Team that signs the player loses their 1st rounder unless they have a top 15 pick then they lose a 2nd rounder. Type B: Top 40% (but not top 20%) - Sandwich pick. Team that signs the player does not lose a pick. And I agree with you, it's a f***ing joke of a system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 This does not just mean that Josh is done in LF. This also means we're signing a CF. 100% guaranteed. Because if Josh is not a LF...if we're prepared to put him in AAA as opposed to LF...then our OF is Owens, Anderson/Sweeney, Dye. And I simply can't fathom KW right now thinking that Anderson or Sweeney will be ready to handle CF on opening day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 02:40 PM) Crede is getting dealt. KW is just trying to drive up his value a bit to squeeze that extra piece, but the future of the White Sox at 3B is Josh Fields, not the Scott Boras-led Joe Crede. You just don't send a guy down to AAA who had a pace of 37/108 in his rookie year. IMO The future of the Sox is not one player it is a team of players. The best 25 we can field. Joe Crede is better at 3B and is just as good with the bat as Fields, if not better. Josh strikes out a lot. We have two talented players and both should be kept by the Sox. So Joe Crede makes $7M or so, why is that suddenly an issue? The team ownership and GM keeps telling us that they will pay the money to field a contender. You don't do that by trading away your talent. I have to wonder if it isn't just the dislike for Boras that makes these decisions for the Sox. We have players developed in our own system and we don't keep them because they reach a point where they can make some money. I am not following the logic of this. We will pay someone elses players though? Fields should have been in winter ball or at the AFL learning the LF job. KW and his "ready to deal sign" is not impressing me. He is no Bill Veeck. Edited November 9, 2007 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 10:58 AM) Sort of and not really. It's quite mysterious, really. For example, in this year's rankings, A-Rod wasn't ranked as the best player -- I believe it was Ortiz. It's a clusterf*** of a system that needs to be fixed, as crappy middle relievers like Scott Linebrink get two picks and average starting pitchers like Jon Garland are somehow only type B's (which don't give compensation anymore, IIRC). Where are these rankings posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 11:10 AM) IMO The future of the Sox is not one player it is a team of players. The best 25 we can field. Joe Crede is better at 3B and is just as good with the bat as Fields, if not better. Joe Crede career .259 .305 .446 .750 Josh Fields .244 .308 .480 .788 Better? Nope. Josh as a rookie already is producing the same as can be expected from Joe. In his minor league career he has shown a propensity to strike out, but also get on base. In the end they may have similar batting avg's but josh should have superior OBP, SLG, OPS, and walk numbers. Field's first stint as an every day 3B he posted a not great .958 FPCT Joe Crede's first stint (2002) produced a .938 FPCT. The next full season showed an improvement to .964 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:17 PM) Joe Crede career .259 .305 .446 .750 Josh Fields .244 .308 .480 .788 Better? Nope. Josh as a rookie already is producing the same as can be expected from Joe. In his minor league career he has shown a propensity to strike out, but also get on base. In the end they may have similar batting avg's but josh should have superior OBP, SLG, OPS, and walk numbers. Field's first stint as an every day 3B he posted a not great .958 FPCT Joe Crede's first stint (2002) produced a .938 FPCT. The next full season showed an improvement to .964 Don't even bother, some people just can not be swayed no matter how much evidence you throw at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:28 PM) Don't even bother, some people just can not be swayed no matter how much evidence you throw at them. If you use minor league numbers to project OBP, I would imagine Crede had superior numbers as far as OBP goes in the minors. To say that if Crede is totally healthy, you are not losing anything if Fields performs exactly as he did in 2007 is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Joe's rookie stats .285 .311 .515 .826 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:33 PM) If you use minor league numbers to project OBP, I would imagine Crede had superior numbers as far as OBP goes in the minors. To say that if Crede is totally healthy, you are not losing anything if Fields performs exactly as he did in 2007 is silly. The biggest loss is defense of course. Fields may eventually be an average defensive 3B, but probably no better than that. Crede has been well above that for some time. Offensively, Fields will probably have a much better career than Crede. Probably, not definitely. Its possible that Joe had "figured it out" in 2006, and 2007 was an injury-riddled aberration, and that his back is now 100% or close to it. Not likely, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(Markbilliards @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:35 PM) Joe's rookie stats .285 .311 .515 .826 Well, those were his first 53 games. Not a great stat to show considering his regression the next full season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:38 PM) The biggest loss is defense of course. Fields may eventually be an average defensive 3B, but probably no better than that. Crede has been well above that for some time. Offensively, Fields will probably have a much better career than Crede. Probably, not definitely. Its possible that Joe had "figured it out" in 2006, and 2007 was an injury-riddled aberration, and that his back is now 100% or close to it. Not likely, though. That's what I'm getting at. He was hitting over .300 and his OBP and OPS lost a lot in September of 2006 when his back started really bothering him again. If he's healthy and the hitter he was the first 5 months of 2006, Boras will get him huge money next winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:42 PM) Well, those were his first 53 games. Not a great stat to show considering his regression the next full season. Aren't you basing your love for Richar, Owens and to a certain extent Fields on about the same timeframe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:38 PM) The biggest loss is defense of course. Fields may eventually be an average defensive 3B, but probably no better than that. Crede has been well above that for some time. Offensively, Fields will probably have a much better career than Crede. Probably, not definitely. Its possible that Joe had "figured it out" in 2006, and 2007 was an injury-riddled aberration, and that his back is now 100% or close to it. Not likely, though. Do you remember Joe Crede defensively before 2004? If we are counting 2002 as his "rookie season" he posted a .938, .964, .965 prior to 2005 where he put up .971 FPCT at 3B. He wasnt really GG caliber until a few seasons in. He has great hands, dont get me wrong, but I think Josh's dev at 3B has taken great strides the last couple of years. And undoubtedly he is a superior athlete to Joe, so I have faith he may end up being avg if not better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:44 PM) Aren't you basing your love for Richar, Owens and to a certain extent Fields on about the same timeframe? yes, except for the fact that Fields and Owens played in about twice as many games. Other than that little bit of fact, you are spot on. Heres Crede's stats with the next 50 or so games mixed in so we have a good sample of about 100 games between the players .242 .274 .393 .667 Its pretty sad that Crede is thought of at this superior player when his best and probably peak year of his career yielded a .323 OBP. Edited November 9, 2007 by RockRaines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 12:42 PM) Well, those were his first 53 games. Not a great stat to show considering his regression the next full season. Yeah, I put Joe's rookie numbers down not to show that Crede is good, but fearfully that Fields may not be quite as good as we hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(Markbilliards @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 01:33 PM) Yeah, I put Joe's rookie numbers down not to show that Crede is good, but fearfully that Fields may not be quite as good as we hope. I then added those 53 games to his next 50 games to give them about a equal share of games. The stats are above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Keith Law chat: Keith Law: (2:42 PM ET ) No, Crede is the antithesis of those hitters. Those Yankees worked the count and got on base. Crede is awful at the plate, most of all because he doesn't control the strike zone. The NY media's obsession with Crede kills me. He stinks. If the Yankees get him, it's a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 (edited) If Keith Law says he stinks, he must stink. Its amazing the White Sox ever won with some of the worst players to ever wear major league uniforms. Crede can't get on base, but Fields who strikes out at least twice as much and has a lower OBP is going to be a star. If OBP is the end all why are the White Sox going to throw all that money at Torii Hunter? Crede hit over .280 with 30 homers and 100 rbi and Keith Law says he's awful. Keith Law gets paid to say that. Sign me up. Edited November 9, 2007 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) If Keith Law says he stinks, he must stink. Its amazing the White Sox ever won with some of the worst players to ever wear major league uniforms. Crede can't get on base, but Fields who strikes out at least twice as much and has a lower OBP is going to be a star. If OBP is the end all why are the White Sox going to throw all that money at Torii Hunter? Crede hit over .280 with 30 homers and 100 rbi and Keith Law says he's awful. Keith Law gets paid to say that. Sign me up. Because we're a bad organization that values "attitude" over, say, OBP? Really, I know you love Crede but he isn't that good. He's certainly replaceable and easily so -- if we had a better organization! Can he be replaced by Fields? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm not as high on Fields as others and I'm skeptical. I still think he's going to be beaten up on by the League throwing inside fastballs at him but we'll just have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) If OBP is the end all why are the White Sox going to throw all that money at Torii Hunter? Crede hit over .280 with 30 homers and 100 rbi and Keith Law says he's awful. Keith Law gets paid to say that. Sign me up. Yeah in an outlier year for him and still his OBP wasnt very good. OBP is a very good statistic and one that the White Sox should start to focus on. Joe Crede is replaceable, and right now his offensive production can be had from a 2nd year player for the minimum salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitlesswonder Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 02:32 PM) Because we're a bad organization that values "attitude" over, say, OBP? It's more than that -- the Sox seem to value attitude over talent. In all probability, both Crede and Fields will be bad in 2008. Crede's back is a huge issue -- and he wasn't a particularly good hitter before getting hurt. I think the numbers back up Keith Law pretty well on that. And I agree -- Fields is going to see fastball after fastball right down the pipe next season and so far all he's shown on those pitches is the ability to strikeout. And these are two of the Sox better players. I don't think I've ever seen an organization so bereft of talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 02:49 PM) It's more than that -- the Sox seem to value attitude over talent. In all probability, both Crede and Fields will be bad in 2008. Crede's back is a huge issue -- and he wasn't a particularly good hitter before getting hurt. I think the numbers back up Keith Law pretty well on that. And I agree -- Fields is going to see fastball after fastball right down the pipe next season and so far all he's shown on those pitches is the ability to strikeout. And these are two of the Sox better players. I don't think I've ever seen an organization so bereft of talent. You and I are in complete agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 02:32 PM) Because we're a bad organization that values "attitude" over, say, OBP? ....if attitude means well above average offensive production and stellar defense at a premium defensive position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(Vance Law @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 03:23 PM) ....if attitude means well above average offensive production and stellar defense at a premium defensive position. since when is .250 .300 .440 above avg production? Edited November 9, 2007 by RockRaines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 9, 2007 -> 06:17 PM) Joe Crede career .259 .305 .446 .750 Josh Fields .244 .308 .480 .788 Better? Nope. Josh as a rookie already is producing the same as can be expected from Joe. In his minor league career he has shown a propensity to strike out, but also get on base. In the end they may have similar batting avg's but josh should have superior OBP, SLG, OPS, and walk numbers. Field's first stint as an every day 3B he posted a not great .958 FPCT Joe Crede's first stint (2002) produced a .938 FPCT. The next full season showed an improvement to .964 Josh Fields needs to be in LF and Joe Crede at 3B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.