The Wall

[Texsox]

If you think there will only be minor economic damage, you really have no idea about border life. Read some of the clips I posted. Holy Week, Christmas, etc. are huge down here. Miller International Airport has a waiting list some days, especially around back to school, for private airplane hanger space.

 

Again, when people see Mexicans, how do they know if they are legal or illegal? When a restaurant in Philly can receive international coverage for only serving English speaking patrons, that is what foreign tourist read. It's about marketing on some of this stuff. The wall is a colossal blunder on our part. It hurts our, US, American businesses. Harms the environment, and will not solve the problem it is set out to do.

[Jenksismyhero]

If you think there will only be minor economic damage, you really have no idea about border life. Read some of the clips I posted. Holy Week, Christmas, etc. are huge down here. Miller International Airport has a waiting list some days, especially around back to school, for private airplane hanger space.

 

Again, when people see Mexicans, how do they know if they are legal or illegal? When a restaurant in Philly can receive international coverage for only serving English speaking patrons, that is what foreign tourist read. It's about marketing on some of this stuff. The wall is a colossal blunder on our part. It hurts our, US, American businesses. Harms the environment, and will not solve the problem it is set out to do.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing that the wall would be a big waste. I just don't understand your basis for assuming that all this business would be lost. In my mind, there's been enough extremist debate about this (where a large and loud section of the US has stood firm on its position to shoot every illegal down if they try and cross) that any potential immigrant or tourist already has enough "ammo" to decide whether to continue to shop or vacation here. I don't see how making the actions physical would make it worse.

 

 

[Texsox]

I'm not disagreeing that the wall would be a big waste. I just don't understand your basis for assuming that all this business would be lost. In my mind, there's been enough extremist debate about this (where a large and loud section of the US has stood firm on its position to shoot every illegal down if they try and cross) that any potential immigrant or tourist already has enough "ammo" to decide whether to continue to shop or vacation here. I don't see how making the actions physical would make it worse.

 

Right or wrong, Mexican nationals see the wall as an insult. The projected impact is very troubling to say the least. I see interviews on TV, hear them on radio, and see them in print. But no one is talking about that on the national level. It's as if we don't matter at all. It is rare to find any elected official on the border in support of the wall.

 

Tourism is this area's #1 industry. The wall may directly hurt our ecotourism by blocking access to very desirable areas near the river. It may hurt our International Tourism. It makes the area seem dangerous. In no way does it help.

[southsideirish71]

Right or wrong, Mexican nationals see the wall as an insult. The projected impact is very troubling to say the least. I see interviews on TV, hear them on radio, and see them in print. But no one is talking about that on the national level. It's as if we don't matter at all. It is rare to find any elected official on the border in support of the wall.

 

Tourism is this area's #1 industry. The wall may directly hurt our ecotourism by blocking access to very desirable areas near the river. It may hurt our International Tourism. It makes the area seem dangerous. In no way does it help.

 

I find the blatant disregard for our nations sovereignty a major insult. I find it troubling that their nation thinks that our border is a porous gateway. I find it sickening that they are complacent in the invasion of our country. They don't like the wall, I could care less. Tell them to stop invading our country, and disregarding our laws. I came here using the proper routes. If my family couldn't of gotten in, we would of made life in Ireland. Just like the rest of our family. We wouldn't of just decided, well they said no, lets invade.

 

I have lots of family that have worked in all sorts of countries. The minute their work VISA expires they go back. Some of them really like the area.. But its part of following the rules of that nation.

Edited November 19, 2007 by southsideirish71

[Jenksismyhero]

I find the blatant disregard for our nations sovereignty a major insult. I find it troubling that their nation thinks that our border is a porous gateway. I find it sickening that they are complacent in the invasion of our country. They don't like the wall, I could care less. Tell them to stop invading our country, and disregarding our laws. I came here using the proper routes. If my family couldn't of gotten in, we would of made life in Ireland. Just like the rest of our family. We wouldn't of just decided, well they said no, lets invade.

 

I have lots of family that have worked in all sorts of countries. The minute their work VISA expires they go back. Some of them really like the area.. But its part of following the rules of that nation.

 

 

But, ssirish, they NEED to break the law. They're bettering their lives by breaking the rules and abusing our moronic social service system!

[Texsox]

I find the blatant disregard for our nations sovereignty a major insult. I find it troubling that their nation thinks that our border is a porous gateway. I find it sickening that they are complacent in the invasion of our country. They don't like the wall, I could care less. Tell them to stop invading our country, and disregarding our laws. I came here using the proper routes. If my family couldn't of gotten in, we would of made life in Ireland. Just like the rest of our family. We wouldn't of just decided, well they said no, lets invade.

 

I have lots of family that have worked in all sorts of countries. The minute their work VISA expires they go back. Some of them really like the area.. But its part of following the rules of that nation.

 

As do I and all the Mexican nationals I know.

 

But how much do we want to punish innocent Americans? Shall we seriously harm our agriculture industry? And it is also a misstatement to say all of Mexico believes a certain way. Most I know respect our laws, which is why they are puzzled that we are making it harder and harder for them to come across and visit family and friends like they have for generations.

 

The criminals will continue, it's the law abiding individuals that are being punished, on both sides of the borders.

[EvilMonkey]

The criminals will continue, it's the law abiding individuals that are being punished,

Almost sounds like a second amendment argument there, Tex. But a serious question, how does the wall hinder the legal entry into our country. Wall or not, people are still supposed to enter at border checkpoints. They are not eliminating checkpoints, so I fail to see how a wall would stop someone from shopping (legally) at Walmart in Texas.

[Texsox]

Almost sounds like a second amendment argument there, Tex. But a serious question, how does the wall hinder the legal entry into our country. Wall or not, people are still supposed to enter at border checkpoints. They are not eliminating checkpoints, so I fail to see how a wall would stop someone from shopping (legally) at Walmart in Texas.

 

It doesn't. It is an emotional response based in part on nationalistic pride. I wish y'all could meet some of the families I know. My analogies will fall short. Back in the 60s the Archie Bunker types would say, there are n*****s and there are black people. You know the n*****s are the ones stealing cars, raping women, hanging out on street corners and dealin' drugs, but *you*, you are a black person. And many blacks would be offended. Does that kind of make sense?

 

In the past couple years we have increased the paper work that a Mexican National needs to cross over, both along the border, and into the interior. The so called "laser visa". It also keeps getting more and more expensive. The US spend countless tens of millions of dollars to strengthen security. Over half a million Mexicans, and close to 150,000 within 100 miles of me, bought the $100 laser visa which stores biometrics like a digital fingerprint and facial features. Less than 2% are actually being checked this way. Here is a real answer, all in place, and we are not using it.

 

Those that believe the US and Mexico should have the same laws will support Mexicans coming over without and paperwork as long as they stay in the border zone, the same as Mexico allows US citizens. Basically both the US and Mexico recognizes two zones. The area roughly 40 miles north and south of the border. For example, Americans can drive into Mexico without any extra paperwork, as long as we stay within the border region. If we go past their interior checkpoint, we must have a temporary import certification for our cars. Mexicans have a similar restriction when they get here, but it is more involved.

[EvilMonkey]

It doesn't. It is an emotional response based in part on nationalistic pride. I wish y'all could meet some of the families I know. My analogies will fall short. Back in the 60s the Archie Bunker types would say, there are n*****s and there are black people. You know the n*****s are the ones stealing cars, raping women, hanging out on street corners and dealin' drugs, but *you*, you are a black person. And many blacks would be offended. Does that kind of make sense?

 

In the past couple years we have increased the paper work that a Mexican National needs to cross over, both along the border, and into the interior. The so called "laser visa". It also keeps getting more and more expensive. The US spend countless tens of millions of dollars to strengthen security. Over half a million Mexicans, and close to 150,000 within 100 miles of me, bought the $100 laser visa which stores biometrics like a digital fingerprint and facial features. Less than 2% are actually being checked this way. Here is a real answer, all in place, and we are not using it.

 

Those that believe the US and Mexico should have the same laws will support Mexicans coming over without and paperwork as long as they stay in the border zone, the same as Mexico allows US citizens. Basically both the US and Mexico recognizes two zones. The area roughly 40 miles north and south of the border. For example, Americans can drive into Mexico without any extra paperwork, as long as we stay within the border region. If we go past their interior checkpoint, we must have a temporary import certification for our cars. Mexicans have a similar restriction when they get here, but it is more involved.

 

Shouldn't these Nationals that are unhappy with all the border enforcement efforts be focusing their ire at the millions of illegals that are the REASON for all the enforcement? As for "Those that believe the US and Mexico should have the same laws will support Mexicans coming over without and paperwork as long as they stay in the border zone, the same as Mexico allows US citizens", once again you are raising an arguement no one else has. No one said all our laws should be the same.

 

[Texsox]

Shouldn't these Nationals that are unhappy with all the border enforcement efforts be focusing their ire at the millions of illegals that are the REASON for all the enforcement? As for "Those that believe the US and Mexico should have the same laws will support Mexicans coming over without and paperwork as long as they stay in the border zone, the same as Mexico allows US citizens", once again you are raising an arguement no one else has. No one said all our laws should be the same.

 

They do. It goes along the lines of too bad they are doing that, we'll have to spend our hundreds of millions of dollars elsewhere. Have a nice day. You are missing the point, all the focus on the illegals comes at the expense of legal tourists and the innocent Americans who rely on that trade.

 

There are several people here who point to Mexico's laws and how Mexico handles immigration, especially from the south. here is a typical post reflecting that view.

 

I find it ironic that Mexico cries foul when we talk about border security, legal immigration, and our social policies. Yet if I was an illegal in Mexico, I couldn't get a drivers license, couldn't own land, couldn't vote, and most likely would be in jail.

[EvilMonkey]

They do. It goes along the lines of too bad they are doing that, we'll have to spend our hundreds of millions of dollars elsewhere. Have a nice day. You are missing the point, all the focus on the illegals comes at the expense of legal tourists and the innocent Americans who rely on that trade.

 

There are several people here who point to Mexico's laws and how Mexico handles immigration, especially from the south. here is a typical post reflecting that view.

Tex, in response to your first part, I do get it. What I don't get is why aren't the legal tourusts more pissed at all the illegals that are causing all this to happen in the first place/ Why aren't they more pissed that thier own government facilitates the illegal invasion of the US which is what caused the stepped up enforcement to begin with. I liken it to airplane security. I am pissed that about half the time I go thru an airport, I get the 'extra checking', despite looking about as far from a typical terrorist as I can. But I am more pissed at the dam Islamofascists douchbags that are the whole reason for all these extra rules to begin with.

 

In response to your second one, I see nothing wrong with pointing out that a country that uses excessive force to keep immigrants out of thier own country would complain that thier neighbor to the north may want to do the same. Everytime someone posted anything like that, your immediate over-the-top response was along the lines of 'Oh well, I guess we should just make all our laws like some third world country's then'. No one said anythign even remotely like that. You don't want a wall? Get the crooks in Washington to 1) ENFORCE the immigration laws we have now, 2) Fix the guest worker program, 3) crack down on companies that knowlingly hire illegals, 4) aggressively prosecute those supplying and using false ss numbers and 5) do something about Mexico trying to invade us by exporting thier poor and importing our money. That country would be broke if it wasn't for all the dollars that get sent back to it.

[StrangeSox]

As do I and all the Mexican nationals I know.

 

But how much do we want to punish innocent Americans? Shall we seriously harm our agriculture industry? And it is also a misstatement to say all of Mexico believes a certain way. Most I know respect our laws, which is why they are puzzled that we are making it harder and harder for them to come across and visit family and friends like they have for generations.

 

How long do we want our important industries propped up by cheap, illegal labor?

 

If they have always respected our laws, then they've been crossing legally at border checkpoints. Are we making that harder than before?

[southsider2k5]

They do. It goes along the lines of too bad they are doing that, we'll have to spend our hundreds of millions of dollars elsewhere. Have a nice day. You are missing the point, all the focus on the illegals comes at the expense of legal tourists and the innocent Americans who rely on that trade.

 

There are several people here who point to Mexico's laws and how Mexico handles immigration, especially from the south. here is a typical post reflecting that view.

 

But you keep leaving out the hundreds of millions of innocent American's who will end up bearing the cost of illegal immigration in the long run. As our Presidential candidates have pointed out on many occasions, social services aren't cheap, and neither is supporting another 100 million people to our south who pay nothing in taxes, yet are receiving American dollars as their second biggest national revenue source. Let's not play like this is just a benefit for the US with no cost to us.

 

Yeah innocent people are going to get harmed no matter what happens, but it also isn't the rest of the countries fault that a sector of our country based their economic status on illegal activity. If the standard is that you can't stop something that could economically hurt people, you are telling me that you shouldn't stop the illegal drug trade, pirating media, black market activities, car theft chopshops, etc. No, we have laws for a reason, and we shouldn't be held hostage to a small portion of our country who believes our laws are for everyone else.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, finally a Prez candidate is getting the right idea on this one. Too bad its Mr. Scumbag Giuliani. Rudy endorses NorthSideSox72's Virtual Wall Plan^tm.

 

[kapkomet]

NorthSideSox72's Virtual Wall Plan ™. I like it.

 

[southsider2k5]

Well, finally a Prez candidate is getting the right idea on this one. Too bad its Mr. Scumbag Giuliani. Rudy endorses NorthSideSox72's Virtual Wall Plan^tm.

 

Trademark it quick!

[Jenksismyhero]

Texsox-

 

One thing I don't understand from reading your posts is this sense of a "right" of Mexicans (or immigrants in general) to come here or to have access to our economy. When did that become part of our system? Tradition doens't hold up anymore, especially since traditionally immigrants came here to stay and assimilate - that's definitely not the trend now.

[Balta1701]

Texsox-

 

One thing I don't understand from reading your posts is this sense of a "right" of Mexicans (or immigrants in general) to come here or to have access to our economy. When did that become part of our system? Tradition doens't hold up anymore, especially since traditionally immigrants came here to stay and assimilate - that's definitely not the trend now.

Wait one second there...where exactly do you come up with the claim that immigrants who come here do not assimilate? I ask as there are even recent studies which have come out looking at, for example, language trends, which find that the patterns for mexican immigrants these days are not very different at all from those of any other immigrant coming these days, or from those coming over 50-100 years ago. The first generation speaks generally the mother country's tongue, the 2nd generation mostly speaks english but can usually do both, and the 3rd generation is almost always fully english speaking. Here's one link that turned up on the Google.

The language assimilation patterns of today are not precisely those of the early 20th century, but they do not appear to pose any threat to English as the language that cements the nation and its culture.

 

The high migration level of the 1990s did not affect the fundamental shift towards English across the generations. Moreover, many of the main exceptions to the basic pattern are found in border communities where bilingualism is a historically rooted phenomenon, not one that has arisen from recent immigration.

 

Yet, bilingualism is more common today than in the past. To some extent, most children of immigrants speak the mother tongue at home, especially if their parents have come from Latin America. However, if they are born and raised in the US, they are highly likely to speak English well or very well. Among second-generation Hispanic children, only eight percent are not proficient, and some of those probably belong to families that move back and forth between the US and their countries of origin.

 

By the third generation, English monolingualism is the prevalent pattern. Bilingualism, then, is very much a minority pattern by this generation. Virtually all children and grandchildren of immigrants accept the necessity of learning English well.

 

Both the anxieties about the place of English in an immigration society and the hopes for a multilingual society in which English is no longer hegemonic are misplaced. Other languages, especially Spanish, will be spoken in the US, even by the American born. But, as history shows, this is not a radical departure from the American experience.

[kapkomet]

Texsox-

 

One thing I don't understand from reading your posts is this sense of a "right" of Mexicans (or immigrants in general) to come here or to have access to our economy. When did that become part of our system? Tradition doens't hold up anymore, especially since traditionally immigrants came here to stay and assimilate - that's definitely not the trend now.

For the most part (and there are exceptions) these people do not give a rat's ass about "assimilation", otherwise they would come in the country in legal avenues. I do find it interesting the sympathies related to the immigrant's plight and there is no sympathy for the effect on the economy and country as a whole.

[Jenksismyhero]

Wait one second there...where exactly do you come up with the claim that immigrants who come here do not assimilate? I ask as there are even recent studies which have come out looking at, for example, language trends, which find that the patterns for mexican immigrants these days are not very different at all from those of any other immigrant coming these days, or from those coming over 50-100 years ago. The first generation speaks generally the mother country's tongue, the 2nd generation mostly speaks english but can usually do both, and the 3rd generation is almost always fully english speaking. Here's one link that turned up on the Google.

 

 

So the ability to speak a language is all you need?? How about trying, at least a little, to become legal? And I think these studies are all BS. In my senior sem for law school a woman is doing her study on English only laws. We get in these types of debates ALL the time. She quotes study after study about how language trends are increasing and how they are different than past immigration rushes (though she still can't comprehend the problem with having ~10M people who can't speak a lick of english). But the studies are worthless as they are all based on census data. Guess what big chunk of the population is not included in the census? The section that no speaka de ingles.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Guess what big chunk of the population is not included in the census? The section that no speaka de ingles.

And yet, if those same people have children in this country...suddenly those children are citizens and are sampled by the Census.

[EvilMonkey]

And yet, if those same people have children in this country...suddenly those children are citizens and are sampled by the Census.

And those children get taught in bilingual classes, further eating up scarce educational resources teaching kids in spanish that should know english before getting into the public school to begin with, because the parents can't and/or won't learn english enough to speak it at home, etc., so English is at best a second language to them, when if they are going to be citizens, it should be a first language, if possible.

 

Oh, and the birthright citizenship also needs to stop.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Alpha Dog

[Texsox]

Texsox-

 

One thing I don't understand from reading your posts is this sense of a "right" of Mexicans (or immigrants in general) to come here or to have access to our economy. When did that become part of our system? Tradition doens't hold up anymore, especially since traditionally immigrants came here to stay and assimilate - that's definitely not the trend now.

 

I don't think anyone has a right to immigrate here at all. As I've mentioned often, any immigration should be tied to jobs and American needs. As a matter of fact, American needs often are overlooked in our rush to punish. We talk about shutting down companies that employed illegals. Let's think for a moment, that could be hundreds of companies, maybe thousands. Why should the tens of millions of innocent Americans that work at these companies be punished? Imagine Enron, only this time it's Eimile in the mail room who overstayed her student visa who took down the company. I think any solution has to balance punishing the criminals with not punishing the innocent Americans.

 

What gets overlooked in the assimilation issue is Mexican immigrants, unlike those through Paris Island or Angel Island, can drive back for the weekend. Our immigrant history is very different based on which path you took. All our heroic stories are from Ellis Island. Much of the Southwest was once Mexico, those people were not immigrants, they were basically taken over. Angel Island were many Asians coming here to build the railroads. Not too many of their stories are ever told. It's the wonderful Europeans who did everything correct. But even they settled into areas of major cities. Look around Chicago, if people assimilated, why is there China Town, Greek Town, The Southside Irish neighborhoods, the Italians around Taylor Street?

[Texsox]

So the ability to speak a language is all you need?? How about trying, at least a little, to become legal? And I think these studies are all BS. In my senior sem for law school a woman is doing her study on English only laws. We get in these types of debates ALL the time. She quotes study after study about how language trends are increasing and how they are different than past immigration rushes (though she still can't comprehend the problem with having ~10M people who can't speak a lick of english). But the studies are worthless as they are all based on census data. Guess what big chunk of the population is not included in the census? The section that no speaka de ingles.

 

The economy is now global in nature, business prizes employees who can speak foreign languages. Would it not make sense that the current immigrants are facing a world where speaking English just is not as important than 100 years ago and any trends would reflect that? Don't we receive what we reinforce and reward?

 

Now I happen to live in an area where most of the Mexican population is bilingual. The joke is, if you speak three languages you are multilingual, if you speak two languages, you are bilingual, if you speak one language you are gringo. The trend now is the grandparents and the grandchildren are bilingual and the parents only speak English. The current feeling is speak Spanish in the home and English in public. I have a great deal of empathy for anyone who tries to pick up a new language during middle age. I could not, despite many hours of individual teaching and practice, plus working in Mexico.

[Texsox]

And those children get taught in bilingual classes, further eating up scarce educational resources teaching kids in spanish that should know english before getting into the public school to begin with, because the parents can't and/or won't learn english enough to speak it at home, etc., so English is at best a second language to them, when if they are going to be citizens, it should be a first language, if possible.

 

Oh, and the birthright citizenship also needs to stop.

What we see here when kids transfer from Mexico schools is they are a year or two ahead in Math and Science. So the extra time for language comes from less time for Math. That of course would not be the same for the first year students.

 

There are also native kids who are not as developed in certain areas, and that takes up time. Any class, any subject, and the strugglers hurt the fast achievers, it doesn't matter their nation of origin.