The Wall

[knightni]

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

 

Yeah Tex, what's your issue?

 

We don't need no education. We don't need no thought control.

[Texsox]

Yesterday's experience at the mall may help to explain the differences between the border area and the interior in our attitudes towards Mexico.

 

The mall was packed, literally every parking space was full. They closed lots and only allowed cars in when someone left.

 

In the row of 46 cars where I parked, over thirty carried license plates from Mexico. Nuevo Leon was #1, that would be the state where Monterrey, a great city, is located, which is about three hours away via the autopista. But there were several other states as well. And the number of packages filling their trunks was staggering. Most of the retail stores in this area will rank in their chains top 10 nationally. The largest volume JC Penny store happens to be in McAllen a city of barely 100,000. The last year I saw a report from our local Chamber of Commerce, almost 3/4 of the new businesses were owned by Mexican-Nationals investing in the US and getting their money out of Mexico. 70% of the condominiums on South Padre Island are owned by Mexican-Nationals. Without the influx of Mexican cash into the border economy, it fails and fails hard. We saw it with the peso devaluation a couple decades ago. We're seeing it now as many Mexicans are feeling the anti-Mexican sentiment that is sweeping the US.

 

At the mall, almost every sales clerk approached me in Spanish first. My friend and I jokingly waited to see how long it would take to hear a conversation in English.

 

So with this wall, and the attitude it represents, we are potentially screwing with the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of Americans who depend on the trade brought in by these tourists. We potentially screw with the farmers and ranchers, all the retail trades, the hotels, restaurants, and other tourist attractions. The towns and cities that depend on the tax revenues.

 

Perhaps if people on the border had an attitude of f*** your town, we don't care about you, you would understand our feelings.

[EvilMonkey]

Yesterday's experience at the mall may help to explain the differences between the border area and the interior in our attitudes towards Mexico.

 

The mall was packed, literally every parking space was full. They closed lots and only allowed cars in when someone left.

 

In the row of 46 cars where I parked, over thirty carried license plates from Mexico. Nuevo Leon was #1, that would be the state where Monterrey, a great city, is located, which is about three hours away via the autopista. But there were several other states as well. And the number of packages filling their trunks was staggering. Most of the retail stores in this area will rank in their chains top 10 nationally. The largest volume JC Penny store happens to be in McAllen a city of barely 100,000. The last year I saw a report from our local Chamber of Commerce, almost 3/4 of the new businesses were owned by Mexican-Nationals investing in the US and getting their money out of Mexico. 70% of the condominiums on South Padre Island are owned by Mexican-Nationals. Without the influx of Mexican cash into the border economy, it fails and fails hard. We saw it with the peso devaluation a couple decades ago. We're seeing it now as many Mexicans are feeling the anti-Mexican sentiment that is sweeping the US.

 

At the mall, almost every sales clerk approached me in Spanish first. My friend and I jokingly waited to see how long it would take to hear a conversation in English.

 

So with this wall, and the attitude it represents, we are potentially screwing with the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of Americans who depend on the trade brought in by these tourists. We potentially screw with the farmers and ranchers, all the retail trades, the hotels, restaurants, and other tourist attractions. The towns and cities that depend on the tax revenues.

 

Perhaps if people on the border had an attitude of f*** your town, we don't care about you, you would understand our feelings.

Tex, you act like because of the wall there will never be tourism and noone will ever want to visit the US of A again. Please stop being so over the top. The people at your mall had to come here somehow, possible over a road and thru a checkpoint, which would still exist with a wall.

[Texsox]

Tex, you act like because of the wall there will never be tourism and noone will ever want to visit the US of A again. Please stop being so over the top. The people at your mall had to come here somehow, possible over a road and thru a checkpoint, which would still exist with a wall.

 

We are putting up a 700 mile sign that says we hate Mexicans. That is how it is perceived.

[Texsox]

Jewelry Corner, a retailer in downtown Brownsville, could see at least a 30 percent decrease in customers if a barrier like the proposed border fence were erected, said Chandru Buxani, the store's owner.

 

Other merchants downtown — where 95 percent of the area's customers come from Mexico — could see a similar downturn, he said.

 

"By putting a wall, you're telling them you don't want them," he said. "They will take that personally. They would shop in Mexico. They would stay there." (View multimedia "The Border Fence: Day 2")

 

Agriculture

In 2006, the total cash value for agricultural crops in the four-county Valley region topped $470.5 million, according to Texas Cooperative Extension statistics provided by the Texas Department of Agriculture. The Valley's citrus industry alone — mostly grapefruit and oranges — brings the area $150 million to $200 million a year.

Fertile topsoil along the Rio Grande's banks and ready access to water allow for high crop yields. The river supplies almost all of the Valley's irrigation, which requires 24-hour access to control for crops.

 

"Any kind of fence that would interfere with that access is a real problem," McClung said.

At a farm in Cameron County, young, green cotton plants could be seen recently, growing in a field beside a dirt road southeast of Los Indios. Water crept along the rows, the irrigation supplied from river water pumped from a canal that runs along the levee, about 250 yards from the river.

 

Fewer bird-watchers is a scenario that concerns Keith Hackland, 58, who owns Alamo Inn, a bed and breakfast in Alamo where the sign out front reads, “birders welcome.” The inn brings in about $60,000 to $70,000 in revenue a year, he said, and 80 percent to 85 percent of his guests are birders, butterfly-watchers and photographers. He also runs river birding tours.

 

Narrow bands of unique ecosystems exist along the Rio Grande that support their own kinds of birds and butterflies.

 

“The rarest nesting birds are found in the river forest,” Hackland said, adding that some species can’t be found anywhere else in the United States or Canada.

 

But the Valley’s prime status for bird-watching would be jeopardized “if we wipe out that river forest or simply remove access to it or reduce access to it,” he said. “Then we have eliminated the goose that lays the golden egg.”

[southsider2k5]

We are putting up a 700 mile sign that says we hate Mexicans. That is how it is perceived.

 

And they have put up 12 million signs that they hate Americian law and order. That is how it is perceived.

[Texsox]

Mexicans who cross into Texas to shop provide billions of dollars to the state and account for more than a fourth of the retail trade in Brownsville, El Paso, Laredo and McAllen combined, according to Federal Reserve officials and experts.

 

While cities and counties on the U.S. side of the border are among the poorest in the United States, they have higher per capita retail trade than the national average because retailers are serving more than the local population, according to research from the Center for Border Economic Studies at the University of Texas-Pan American in Edinburg.

 

From 1978 to 2001, an average of more than 35 percent of McAllen’s total retail goods sold ended up in Mexico, according to Dallas Fed research. Brownsville’s exported sales weighed in at more than 25 percent of the city’s total.

 

In 2001, Mexicans who shopped in McAllen, Brownsville, Laredo and El Paso bought about $3.2 billion worth of goods — roughly 19 percent of all retail sales along the Texas border and 1.9 percent of the state’s retail sales, according to Dallas Fed data.

 

So because y'all up north employ illegals, it's f*** the Americans who live here? Nice policy from the "pro-government" party.

[Texsox]

And they have put up 12 million signs that they hate Americian law and order. That is how it is perceived.

 

So you're in favor of an policy that will destroy a region's economy here in the US?

[southsider2k5]

So you're in favor of an policy that will destroy a region's economy here in the US?

 

So you're in favor of a policy that will destoy a nations social benefits system?

[Texsox]

So you're in favor of a policy that will destoy a nations social benefits system?

No. I'm in favor of a plan that matches US employers with the workers they need, via a guest worker system. I am in favor of a border security program that works without destroying innocent people in the process.

 

We offer these social benefits to people who earn below a certain amount of money. Once those jobs are on the books, with legal employees, more people, not less, will be eligible for those benefits. The benefits, like student financial aid, medical, food, etc. are tied to the income from that job. So the destroy our system analogy is not that good. The only thing that keeps these jobs from causing the problems you allude to are continuing to hire illegals, which we cannot tolerate anymore. But gives great insight to why politicians in both parties have failed to act.

[southsideirish71]

 

 

I find it ironic that Mexico cries foul when we talk about border security, legal immigration, and our social policies. Yet if I was an illegal in Mexico, I couldn't get a drivers license, couldn't own land, couldn't vote, and most likely would be in jail.

[EvilMonkey]

No. I'm in favor of a plan that matches US employers with the workers they need, via a guest worker system. I am in favor of a border security program that works without destroying innocent people in the process.

While related, these are two different issues. yes, we should have an improved program that lets companies get the workers they need. At the same time, we need to keep out the people that don't want to come here thru the correct channels.

[Jenksismyhero]

So you're in favor of an policy that will destroy a region's economy here in the US?

 

 

Come on....how would a fence do that? If you're buying that many goods and going back across the border, you certainly didn't jump a fence to get there. You had to go through some security checkpoint. Obviously armed border guards aren't giving these people much of a "f*** you mexicans" message, otherwise they wouldn't continue to shop.

 

I'm against the fence idea. I think it'd be a gigantic waste of money. But I'm reallly tired of the pass people want to give illegals. I'd be for a guest worker program - if those guest workers prove they've been working and prove they've been paying their share of taxes. Otherwise kick em out and let them go through the process (which should get revamped no doubt).

[Texsox]

I find it ironic that Mexico cries foul when we talk about border security, legal immigration, and our social policies. Yet if I was an illegal in Mexico, I couldn't get a drivers license, couldn't own land, couldn't vote, and most likely would be in jail.

 

You are missing the point. The shoppers we are talking about come here legally. They view the fence as Anti-Mexican and makes them feel like they are not wanted, even though they are very much wanted by us.

 

The anti-Mexican sentiment is tough for people here legally, even just as tourists. How can the general public tell the difference between a family here legally and illegally? Is that the environment you would choose for a vacation?

[EvilMonkey]

"could see a similar downturn" And they also could not.

 

They would shop in Mexico. They would stay there." If the goods they wanted/needed were available there for a price they wanted to pay, they would have stayed there to begin with.

 

"Any kind of fence that would interfere with that access is a real problem," McClung said. " So we have Mexicans coming into America to get water, or Americans going in to Mexico to get water? What is it? Wold the wall prevent Americans from getting access to the river, and which country is the river in anyway? (just a question, a real question, not snark)

 

 

[Texsox]

Come on....how would a fence do that? If you're buying that many goods and going back across the border, you certainly didn't jump a fence to get there. You had to go through some security checkpoint. Obviously armed border guards aren't giving these people much of a "f*** you mexicans" message, otherwise they wouldn't continue to shop.

 

I'm against the fence idea. I think it'd be a gigantic waste of money. But I'm reallly tired of the pass people want to give illegals. I'd be for a guest worker program - if those guest workers prove they've been working and prove they've been paying their share of taxes. Otherwise kick em out and let them go through the process (which should get revamped no doubt).

 

The wall is part of this anti-Mexican sentiment that is felt very strongly in Mexico. There is some nationalistic pride at work here as well. These people choose to visit the US and spend their money. The wall says we do not want Mexicans, that armed border guards are not enough. So many have said their feelings are, you don't want us, fine, we will spend our money at home or travel elsewhere.

 

Also realize they probably know someone who has emmigrated here, either legally or illegally. They also may have ancestors who became Americans after 1846.

[kapkomet]

They choose to come to the border malls because buying American is coolio! And I'm only half kidding. Like Alpha said, if they wanted to spend their money at home, they would already, and OVER TIME the wall won't make a bit of difference. Short term impacts will be worse then long term.

 

Mrs. Clinton, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!...

[Jenksismyhero]

The wall is part of this anti-Mexican sentiment that is felt very strongly in Mexico. There is some nationalistic pride at work here as well. These people choose to visit the US and spend their money. The wall says we do not want Mexicans, that armed border guards are not enough. So many have said their feelings are, you don't want us, fine, we will spend our money at home or travel elsewhere.

 

Also realize they probably know someone who has emmigrated here, either legally or illegally. They also may have ancestors who became Americans after 1846.

 

Where else are they going to shop? Are they going to travel a thousand miles to the south? They have no other option. They shop here for a reason - they get the best price on the goods the want/need. You think they shop in the US because they like us more? If they can buy what they want in their own country, why do they make a trek across the border?

 

 

[Texsox]

"could see a similar downturn" And they also could not.

 

They would shop in Mexico. They would stay there." If the goods they wanted/needed were available there for a price they wanted to pay, they would have stayed there to begin with.

 

"Any kind of fence that would interfere with that access is a real problem," McClung said. " So we have Mexicans coming into America to get water, or Americans going in to Mexico to get water? What is it? Wold the wall prevent Americans from getting access to the river, and which country is the river in anyway? (just a question, a real question, not snark)

 

Generally, the river is split between the two. I really interesting situation is occurring in areas with oxbows forming. Some areas, as the oxbow pinches off, create places where a section of land is on the "wrong" side of the river. Perhaps more than you want to know, but fascinating to some. Prior to this, you would suddenly be owning land in Mexico or the US when the river changed courses.

BANCOS OF THE RIO GRANDE. A 1905 treaty between the United States and Mexico called for the elimination of bancos. A banco is a curve in a river channel, a bend oftentimes resembling a horseshoe or oxbow. Some are so large as to be unnoticeable except from the air or by surveys. Bancos usually form where the ground is level, the drop or grade is slight, and the river is sluggish. During floods, since the water encounters resistance in these curves, the channels frequently shift. Where the Rio Grande is the boundary between the United States and Mexico the shifts have had international repercussions. Boundary commissioners described the Rio Grande border as having three divisions. From El Paso to Rio Grande City, the fall was steep and the banks usually solid. From Rio Grande City to the Gulf of Mexico, a straight distance of 108 miles, the river meandered through 241 miles of curves (bancos) to reach the coast. The soil was alluvial, the fall measured in inches. River channels frequently twisted back upon themselves, creating cut-offs and confusions about where the border was. By 1970 American and Mexican boundary commissions had sliced through 241 bancos by straightening the river. Those bancos that protruded into Mexico went to Mexico, the others to Texas. More than 30,000 acres of land changed hands, most of it in the lower Rio Grande valley. The United States got 18,505 acres, and Mexico received 11,662.

 

We have all our irrigation and drinking water coming from the river, both sides. Water rights is a huge issue here. Which country can pump out how much is carefully regulated through a series of treaties. Levels in the reservoirs in Mexico and the US are measured and verified to be certain both countries are sending their share into the Rio Grande. Presently Mexico is "in debt" several trillion acre feet of water. It's been raining on the US side more than the Mexico side. Both countries send over satellites to measure the reservoirs.

 

All the pumps, inlets. etc. are in and near the river. The fence, as proposed, is being built away from the river, on part of the levee system, so it can be patrolled. Most of the land between the fence and the river is agriculture. The workers will need to get to that land and back. Necessitating gates of some kind or buying all the best farmland and putting those growers out of business.

 

The fence isn't going through some wilderness areas. It is going through people's homes and businesses. Imagine if you suddenly could not get to 2/3rds of your business without going through a security checkpoint.

[Texsox]

Where else are they going to shop? Are they going to travel a thousand miles to the south? They have no other option. They shop here for a reason - they get the best price on the goods the want/need. You think they shop in the US because they like us more? If they can buy what they want in their own country, why do they make a trek across the border?

Vacations. Nice trip. Cuba is also a very popular destination as is the the Caribbean and other cities in Mexico.

 

Why do suburbanites head to State Street at Christmas? Because they have to? Because they like you more? They could go to Woodfield. If they can buy what they want in Schaumburg, why do they drive to Chicago?

 

Although city folks shopping in suburban malls may encounter some problems

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

We are putting up a 700 mile sign that says we hate Mexicans. That is how it is perceived.

 

 

Is this a pro or con statement for the wall

[southsider2k5]

You are missing the point. The shoppers we are talking about come here legally. They view the fence as Anti-Mexican and makes them feel like they are not wanted, even though they are very much wanted by us.

 

The anti-Mexican sentiment is tough for people here legally, even just as tourists. How can the general public tell the difference between a family here legally and illegally? Is that the environment you would choose for a vacation?

 

So what about anti-American sentiment? Why would anyone want to come into an enviornment where the local laws didn't matter at all? Where people can just show up and take what they want and send it home, and get defended for it? I don't think its the kind of enviornment people want to take a vacation in either.

 

The ignorance of labeling things "anti-Mexican" pisses me off more than anything. I am sick of it being a racial thing, when people actually feel that laws are made to be follow, and not just for a favored few sets of people to be able to ignore. The Jesse Jackson playbook of labeling anyone who disagrees is lame.

 

If anything this country has bent over backwards to be "Pro-Mexican" as they have allowed millions upon millions of people to be here pretty much at will, without any consequeces, all of the way asking for more. I am anti ALL illegal immigration. I don't care if they are white-faced Europeans, black-faced Africians, or people from our southern border, or anyone else.

 

The entire world expects us to be their economic base, yet they see no need to respect us or follow our laws. I am all in favor of adding immigrants in a fair, orderly, and smart pattern. I am not in favor of having those terms dictated to us by people who have no respect for our laws and institutions.

 

Keep calling people like us racist if you like, that's fine. I don't expect anything more. Just don't expect us to stand by and be happy about anarchy in our country.

[Texsox]

Keep calling people like us racist if you like, that's fine. I don't expect anything more. Just don't expect us to stand by and be happy about anarchy in our country.

 

I am not calling anyone racists. The focus of dialog in the US has been the problems that Mexicans has inflicted on the US. There have been protests, the Minutemen have been around the border. Very little pro-Mexico support out there. And all this is necessary, we have to address the issues. But that clearly is an anti-Mexico sentiment. Much of the focus on Mexico has all been negative.

 

I am sorry if it appears I am labeling someone a racists. I believe it is very possible to believe a wall is desirable and not be racists. Those labels make any sort of sane discussion impossible and too emotionally charged.

 

Would it be better if I used something like all the news about Mexico has been negative in the US?

[Texsox]

And Jenks, the other reason they shop here, is we kiss their asses with marketing campaigns. We'd rather they spend those hundreds of millions here than San Antonio or other locations. A large share of a store's advertising budget is spent in Mexico. We also need to lure them away from Mexico businesses.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm not denying that they don't shop here or that economically some businesses may be hurt (though I don't think it'd be that big of a deal). I'm saying putting up a fence isn't going to detract away any of that business more than simply talking about putting up a wall. The immigration issue has become a national debate already, with a large group who think she should shoot people that try to cross the border. I think if they don't have a negative view of us already they probably won't because we put up a wall. Moreover, those folks have to go through the proper channels to get here anyway, so whats it matter if that channel has a wall on either side of it? It'd be different if they could cross the border at will and then we decide to erect huge guard towers and security posts. But here they already deal with having to go through security - I don't see how any reasonabally intelligent person (which this group must include if they have the money to travel X number of hours to go shopping for luxuries) could view this as anything more than an attempt to limit the flow of illegal immigration.

 

And frankly, if they know that and still think there's an anti-mexican bias, then oh well. Like we should give two s***s about people who can't see our right to protect who comes in/out of our country?