Jon Garland traded for Orlando Cabrera

[caulfield12]

Simple: Because Kenny can't trade Jose. He's gassed and the real sad thing about this is Kenny didn't know he was gassed until the jalope' actually broke down on the side of the road.

 

Kenny is such an ass.

 

You don't trade in your junker car after it throws a rod and that is exactly what Williams tried to do last year with Jose. He couldn't get anyone out so Williams goes shopping him, as if the other GMs in baseball don't watch TV. He goes to shopping Dye in a contract year, shops Mark in a contract year, shops Crede coming back from injury going into a contract year. Crede was wanted by the Angels last year and any reports you read said the Sox were due to bring in a pretty nice haul, but Williams was out of his mind and didn't try to trade Crede UNTIL NOW, after his back finally gave way and with a contract year getting ready to start up.

 

What is he doing? It's par for the course with this guy. Hang onto guys one year too late and then quickly try to deal your diminishing, aging talent before anyone notices they can't play anymore. He just continues to make this team older with no rhyme or reason. He's a lot like Dan Snyder, just collecting guys, making moves for the hell of it so his own name can be in the papers.

 

If Williams ever wins another World Series again it will be a miracle. The guy sucks as a GM. He got lucky in 2005.

 

 

And how did (or do) we know that, especially at that time, that Josh Fields was even capable of being a major league player? I think the jury's still out if he can actually play 3B everyday or if he's a DH/LF, which lowers his value substantially.

 

Look at the struggles of Anderson and Sweeney and Borchard and the list goes on and on...let's say we traded Crede before last season (we definitely couldn't have put Fields there before 06) and Fields did what most Sox position prospects do, he failed miserably.

 

Then we would have been stuck with Uribe or Mackowiak at 3B. That would have looked brilliant...trading the most well-liked member of the team and the hero of 2005 and replacing him with the equivalent of Chris Snopek/Greg Norton.

 

It's not such an easy thing...would you have had the guts and prescience to just KNOW that Contreras would lose it just as magically as he became the best pitcher in the AL for a four month long stretch from August of 05 through May of 06? Was anyone on ANY White Sox board calling for Jose to be traded in May or June of 2006 (of course, after the sciatica injury, it was TOO late).

 

 

[DBAHO]

Maybe the Sox are thinking, if they trade Paulie now, and then either trade for Miggy using the prospects you get from a Konerko deal, or try to target Miggy as a FA in a couple of years, to replace Thome when he eventually retires.

 

So a lot of possibilities here. Personally I can't see them trading Paulie here unless they are overblown by an offer from someone.

[Jeremy]

Rob Neyer:

 

Garland is solid. He's made 32 or 33 starts in each of the last six seasons and his ERA is always right around the league average or a little better.

 

Meanwhile, Cabrera probably will never again play as well as he did last season. He was 32, and it was his best season wince 2003. He won the Gold Glove this year, but didn't deserve it. He's solid with the glove, but probably no better than Uribe. Yes, he's the better hitter. But he's not that much better. In fact, the projections in the 2008 Bill James Handbook predict that Uribe will actually out-hit Cabrera next season.

 

That doesn't account for park effects, and Cabrera's new home should boost his numbers a bit. Realistically, though? The White Sox just gave up a 15-game winner to gain a marginal upgrade for one season at shortstop.

 

Keith Law (insider content only): Has a very similar but slightly less critical take than Neyer.

 

Baseball America:

 

Even after trading away Cabrera the Angels have several options at shortstop with Erick Aybar, Maicer Izturis and Brandon Wood. To pick up a middle-of-the-rotation starter like Garland is an impressive haul. The White Sox pick up Cabrera just a week and a half after signing incumbent Juan Uribe to a one-year deal. The Cabrera trade means that Uribe will either be moving to second base or will become a trade chip for a future deal.

 

I'm not doing back flips over this deal but my take on these articles is that because these writers haven't followed the Sox on a regular basis, they don't realize that if Cabrera plays defense just as well as Uribe and produces at the level of his own career averages offensively he'll be a considerable upgrade. I feel like they're glossing over how incredibly putrid (.240/.281/.415) Uribe has been at the plate the past three seasons.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Jeremy

[RME JICO]

Was there any mumblings of this trade prior to it happening, or was this another one of Kenny's under the radar deals?

 

I don't recall anything mentioning OC before. When LAA was linked with the Sox as trading partners, it always was someone else. If that trend continues, Kenny is going to make more moves that no one is seeing yet.

[caulfield12]

Rob Neyer:

Keith Law (insider content only): Has a very similar but slightly less critical take than Neyer.

 

Baseball America:

I'm not doing back flips over this deal but my take on these articles is that because these writers haven't followed the Sox on a regular basis, they don't realize that if Cabrera plays defense just as well as Uribe and produces at the level of his own career averages offensively he'll be a considerable upgrade. I feel like they're glossing over how incredibly putrid (.240/.281/.415) Uribe has been at the plate the past three seasons.

 

 

Of course, the Carlos Lee deal made LITTLE to no sense at the time...the Sox are getting rid of Ordonez, Valentin and Caballo, and we're still going to somehow contend?

 

Now, of course, times have changed and the competition in the division is much stiffer...but we have no choice but to improve our team speed, contact...I think if OG is going to go down (along with KW), it will be doing things their way, and that means "small ball" for sure.

 

If that means they're going to cram Vazquez and Gavin Floyd and Masset and Sisco and Aardsma down our throats (in KW's unique way) to prove how wise he is, well, we will just have to wait and see. The emergence of a certain D-Backs CFer has finally given the critics their Fogg/Wells/Lowe for Ritchie of recent years...although many Sox fans would still argue that a front-line starter for the next Mike Cameron (albeit a very affordable one) isn't as one-sided as one might be led to believe.

 

There were so many decisions with this team that look bad now but looked good at the time:

 

1) Letting Rowand go to start Anderson and save money, and I still don't believe Rowand was so magical or grinderish

2) Signing Jose long-term

3) Cintron and Mackowiak

4) Not spending money on a LH reliever coming into 06, and the infamous Jeff Nelson/Jose Paniagua experiment

5) Not spending any real money on relievers coming into 07, especially a veteran...trying outsmart the market

6) Not trading Crede, Dye, Contreras, Garland, Jenks, Matt Thornton, etc., at their "peak values"

7) Thinking Juan Uribe would play like 04/05 again, and the lack of development with Valido

 

[RME JICO]

"Orlando Cabrera, for me, is one of the best shortstops in baseball and Garland is a No. 3 starter," one insider said. "If you don't have something next, then I don't think it's a really good trade (for the Angels)."

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Agp....o&type=lgns

[caulfield12]

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune....ra-a-barga.html

 

Something else that's interesting, losing Garland after 2008 would have netted absolutely nothing in return as a Type B Free Agent (somehow, those 36 wins over two years don't count for much, do they?)

 

So, along with the money coming our way, the compensation if we are unable to sign Cabrera long-term, the eventual playing destination of Mr. Juan Uribe, this is starting to make a little more sense from the Sox perspective.

[Chet Lemon]

I cannot help but wonder if Garland could have been shipped to Philly for Bourn and minor league SS Jason Donald before the Lidge trade? It could have shored up our OF and give the team a SS to replace Uribe after the season. Maybe not.

 

[quickman]

We are thinking the same on this one.

 

Like Chisoxfn said yesterday, lots of teams would be interested in Konerko. Whether there's a fit or not is another story. With Williams all but saying more deals are imminent, my guess is they're not nickel and dime trades.

 

He also said today he's having trouble acquiring bullpen help so it may take a bigger trading chip to get something done.

 

It is clear though, he is targeting good defensive players which will help a pitching staff.

 

 

I was under the impression that konerko had a list of teams he could be traded to. I maybe be wrong but if so, I think Konerko prefers the west over the east. Just something to check on. In addition, if konerko does get traded we would then need a first baseman unless your thinking Thome can play that position, which may not be a good idea. KW was clear that this is not a time for a youth movement and that he wants to win next year, trading konerko does not send this message.

[29andPoplar]

I was under the impression that konerko had a list of teams he could be traded to. I maybe be wrong but if so, I think Konerko prefers the west over the east. Just something to check on. In addition, if konerko does get traded we would then need a first baseman unless your thinking Thome can play that position, which may not be a good idea. KW was clear that this is not a time for a youth movement and that he wants to win next year, trading konerko does not send this message.

Well PK will be 10 and 5 soon so maybe thats the impetus for whatever talks are going on (or not going on). It's Bruce Levine so who knows. I would agree Konerko's clause would point west vs. east but the Yankees have some things the Sox would want.

 

My sense is anyone is tradeable after last season's disaster. Williams will listen to anything, he would trade his father if he thought it made sense.

 

However the only way I see prospects coming here in a deal for an established player is if they are flipped for another established player, and Williams doesn't seem to do that. As you and several and actually myself as well pointed out today, he is in it to win it in 2008 so the rebuilding crowd will have to wait for now.

 

Well this is what makes hot stove fun. Rumors and what if's and such.

Edited November 20, 2007 by 29andPoplar

[PAUL KONERKO 14]

haha one of the best SS's in the league my ass. What about Carlos Guillen, Derek Jeter, Miguel Tejada, Michael Young, Brendan Harris, or Jhonny Peralta?

[Mr. Showtime]

I'm sure nobody cares, but I like the trade.

 

Carry on.

[PAUL KONERKO 14]

I'm sure nobody cares, but I like the trade.

 

Carry on.

Well who doesn't value an admin's opinion?

[Balta1701]

haha one of the best SS's in the league my ass. What about Carlos Guillen, Derek Jeter, Miguel Tejada, Michael Young, Brendan Harris, or Jhonny Peralta?

Guillen is being moved to 1st base. Tejada is being talked about as moving to 3rd base.

[29andPoplar]

if konerko does get traded we would then need a first baseman unless your thinking Thome can play that position, which may not be a good idea.

 

No, agreed, Thome's days at 1B are over. 1B are not that tough to find but agree it would have to be a very unique and special deal to trade Konerko, for the reasons KW mentioned and you emphasize as well.

[WHarris1]

I'm sure nobody cares, but I like the trade.

 

Carry on.

I like it too.

 

[PAUL KONERKO 14]

I like it in the sense it brings us closer to landing Hunter.

[witesoxfan]

haha one of the best SS's in the league my ass. What about Carlos Guillen, Derek Jeter, Miguel Tejada, Michael Young, Brendan Harris, or Jhonny Peralta?

 

One of these things is not like the other; one of these things just doesn't belong.

 

and by one, I mean two, because one of these guys is pretty average, and another is a 1Bman. And, on top of that, another may be moving to 3B in a year.

[Mr. Showtime]

Well who doesn't value an admin's opinion?

 

LOL.

 

I've been here forever, thus my admin status. I'm not any smarter than anyone else in these threads. I couldn't tell you what half of the stats out there now mean or how they are calculated. I just look at the trade, and understand they've got a plan, and we'll see how well it comes together.

[Jeremy]

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune....ra-a-barga.html

 

Something else that's interesting, losing Garland after 2008 would have netted absolutely nothing in return as a Type B Free Agent (somehow, those 36 wins over two years don't count for much, do they?)

 

So, along with the money coming our way, the compensation if we are unable to sign Cabrera long-term, the eventual playing destination of Mr. Juan Uribe, this is starting to make a little more sense from the Sox perspective.

 

Orlando Cabrera, whom the Sox acquired Monday along with $1.5 million for Garland, is ranked as a Type A player. General manager Kenny Williams stressed the Sox acquired Cabrera, 33, who batted .301 with 101 runs in 155 games, with the intent to keep him on a long-term basis.

 

Cabrera can become a free agent after the 2008 season. The Sox would get two draft picks if they lose Cabrera to free agency after the 2008 season if they don't re-sign him.

 

Unless Gonzalez thinks Kenny is being disingenuous when he said he acquired Cabrera with the intention of resigning him, I'm not sure why his classification as a type A free agent means much.

[PAUL KONERKO 14]

One of these things is not like the other; one of these things just doesn't belong.

 

and by one, I mean two, because one of these guys is pretty average, and another is a 1Bman. And, on top of that, another may be moving to 3B in a year.

Well I was basing that off their 2007 season and those were just off the top of my head and I'm pretty sure all of them played SS. I'm sure there are another one or two better or if we looked deeper into stats one of those names should not be up there.

[Mr. Showtime]

I like it too.

 

 

I'm surprised hearing that from you Willie. Sadly we couldn't package any of the sorry ass Bulls in the trade.

[PAUL KONERKO 14]

LOL.

 

I've been here forever, thus my admin status. I'm not any smarter than anyone else in these threads. I couldn't tell you what half of the stats out there now mean or how they are calculated. I just look at the trade, and understand they've got a plan, and we'll see how well it comes together.

Our plan=to get Torii Kedar Hunter

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2007 by PAUL KONERKO 14

[caulfield12]

One of these things is not like the other; one of these things just doesn't belong.

 

and by one, I mean two, because one of these guys is pretty average, and another is a 1Bman. And, on top of that, another may be moving to 3B in a year.

 

Why don't we go back five years and add A-Rod and Nomar?

 

Seriously, that list he came up with was INTERESTING. The Indians love Peralta so much that they are trying to dump him for the second time in three years.

He's a lousy shortstop and an inconsistent offensive performer, like Uribe.

 

They still want Barfield to get another shot at 2B and to move over Asdrubal whatever his name is over to SS from what I've read.

[NorthSideSox72]

No, agreed, Thome's days at 1B are over. 1B are not that tough to find but agree it would have to be a very unique and special deal to trade Konerko, for the reasons KW mentioned and you emphasize as well.

Its too bad Crede is a Boras client and has to be traded. If a deal could be worked with Konerko leaving, I'd be more than OK with having Crede at 3B and Fields at 1B. Especially if a Konerko trade brought the team a serious player for LF, to go along with Hunter in CF. Or even sign someone from the money you save from trading Konerko, if you trade PK for a starting pitcher.

 

How about this lineup...

 

Cabrera, SS

Hunter, CF

Thome, DH

Dye, RF

Jenkins, LF

Fields, 1B

Crede, 3B

Pierzynski, C

Richar, 2B

 

Plus whatever starting pitcher could perhaps be had for PK added to Buehrle, Vaz, Conteras and Danks/Floyd/Gio.