Jon Garland traded for Orlando Cabrera

[Milkman delivers]

The sox have lacked a true #2 hitter for years. Cabrera is that. I bet more trades are coming but Orlando is likely staying put.

 

Wait, what? Wasn't Iguchi like the ideal #2 hitter?

[vandy125]

Unfortunately -- and I stress 'unfortunately' -- I'd guess this is the route they go. After all, the Sox have who, exactly, who could replace Cabrera in 2009?

 

It sucks, too, as I'd much rather have the two top 100 picks than Cabera's mid-30s seasons.

 

I don't know. I kind of hope they sign him, and think that they will. Consider this, they are unhappy with how their drafting has been and are making big changes in that area. Do you think that they will put themselves in a position where they need to rely on new people? I would think that KW and Co want to see the scouts establish a better track record with drafts before we start letting everything go for draft picks.

[RockRaines]

Did he mention a cash amount?

Yes, he said I owe 364 for my next payment.

[zenryan]

when KW is fired, the organization should really come to this site and look for the next GM.

[RockRaines]

The sox's next coming of a SS is what 16 years old? O Cab I guess could hold the fort till that kid is ready in 2012

Edited November 19, 2007 by RockRaines

[NorthSideSox72]

Get over YOURSELF. If one doesn't like the way this team operates, they don't have to accept it. AT ALL. KW, for all the good he's done, makes mistakes. what's wrong with disagreeing with him? Also, isn't second-guessing part of sports.

 

also, if one were to blindly believe everything a GM does, then we'd sure have a boring message board. And we don't want that, right?

Disagreeing is good. I think he was just reacting to the hyperbole-loving cliff-jumpers.

 

[hitlesswonder]

Yes, he said I owe 364 for my next payment.

Did you ask if that shouldn't be a little lower considering the payroll was lowered in the Garland trade? I think you should have, and then demanded to speak to the general manager if the rep was uncooperative

[CanOfCorn]

when KW is fired, the organization should really come to this site and look for the next GM.

 

I sincerely doubt Kenny will be fired. Reinsdorf luvs him.

Edited November 19, 2007 by CanOfCorn

[Kalapse]

Fernandez, McDowell, David Wells, Colon, Bradford, Foulke, Howry----- need I go on?

Fernandez and McDowell had a grand total of 2.5 good seasons combined after leaving the Sox and both made a whole lot of money while doing being bad, especially Fernandez who was an absolute disaster for the final 3 years and $21M of his contract with the Marlins. Wells had to go and they were much better off not re-signing Colon (though that was not from a lack of trying.) The trend with 3 of those starters was big, big money, 1 or 2 good years immediately following their departure from the Sox then they break down and become useless by year 2 or 3.

[RockRaines]

I smell a Bartolo Colon signing for a stop gap.......

 

 

Wait, that was my Taco Burrito King meal from last night, my bad.

[elrockinMT]

Garland for Cabrera even up is ridiculous and doesn't do anything positive for this team as far as I am concerned. We have two short stops now and are minus an 18 game winner. I have a real problem with trading quality pitching for a SS. But, it's done and if we don't win maybe KW should be looking for a new job in 2009.

[GreatScott82]

I smell a Bartolo Colon signing for a stop gap.......

Wait, that was my Taco Burrito King meal from last night, my bad.

If Colon can get that fat arm fixed.. he can be a cheap 1 year bargain.

[CWSGuy406]

USS Mariner:

 

I'm sorry, but USS Mariner greatly undersells Garland. Garland should be easily replaceable? Really? Can they count for me how many pitchers, over the past three seasons, have pitched 600+ innings of an ERA+ of 110 or better?

 

I agree with some of their points. The Angels seem to strengthen their greatest strength, but, on the other hand, (a)Aybar isn't very good and ( B ) they lose defense with whoever they go with (Izturis, probably?).

 

Garland is an extremely valuable pitcher to have, and we'll miss him dearly. There's not a chance in hell that Gavin Floyd or John Danks or Jack Egbert or Gio Gonzalez replicates Garland's 2007

Edited November 19, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[caulfield12]

Well, there's always the possibility (and he was very strong in the second half) that Brandon McCarthy becomes a very good pitcher, although his health will always be a question mark with that akward frame until he fills out a little more...Kip Wells was the only other name I could think of who was in his "prime" and didn't have health problems within a couple of seasons.

 

As for the trade, mixed reactions.

 

A lot is contingent on the intelligence of putting Uribe at 2B. Will he defer to Cabrera and move over and be content and motivated? We know somehow we would get 20 homers and 75 RBI's out of him...then again, there are plenty of Mark Lorettas, Grudzielaneks or Tad Iguchi's available for that price.

 

If you look at our starting pitching "surplus" (six deep) versus what we have now in only two solid starters and major questions marks about #3-5, well, this is going to be a make-or-break year for KW and the franchise.

 

Obviously, Cabrera will help the top of the order out...but he's never been a consistent offensive player, year in and year out...and the whole age thing causes some question marks too.

 

Garland is what he is, a VERY solid, dependable #4 starter for any major league ballclub, and a 2/3 for a couple. OTOH, he's never been an ace or a shutdown pitcher or the kind of guy like Contreras or Vazquez or even Brandon McCarthy down the stretch in 2005 who could consistently give up 0-3 runs per game over a month of performances.

 

There are SO many question marks with this team...KW would have been vilified for giving T. Hunter $60 million for four years (well, not by Mariotti) or Rowand $33 million for 3 years or something like Gary Mathews Jr's deal last off-season.

 

With a healthy Crede, we have the makings of a good offense again, if we can find the right CFer.

 

Of course, we have even bigger questions about Contreras, Floyd, Danks, Broadway, Phillips, Gio, Egbert, etc.

 

Right now, we're fighting just to get back to being a respectable .500 club again. The articles I have been reading about the AL Central don't even mention us anymore along with CLE, DET and MIN.

 

The thing that's so unfortunate is having to trade from what used to be a strength (starting pitching) to cover for a lack of talent development....particularly at SS and CF. If the Sox farm system were a little more respectable, this move would have been unnecessary. Although I don't think KW was ever going to pay JG $13-15 million per season over the course of a 3-5 year long-term contract.

 

 

[CanOfCorn]

Garland for Cabrera even up is ridiculous and doesn't do anything positive for this team as far as I am concerned. We have two short stops now and are minus an 18 game winner. I have a real problem with trading quality pitching for a SS. But, it's done and if we don't win maybe KW should be looking for a new job in 2009.

 

We have a solid middle infielder/number 2 hitter and don't have to deal with the inconsistency of Uribe. At some point, we gotta let the kids try to pitch. Danks is a year older, Floyd has one last shot to do something with his career and one of Gio/Broadway/Masset/Sisco/Phillips/will get 5th starter. I'm not thrilled with the trade, but I'm not totally against it.

[StrangeSox]

Garland for Cabrera even up is ridiculous and doesn't do anything positive for this team as far as I am concerned. We have two short stops now and are minus an 18 game winner. I have a real problem with trading quality pitching for a SS. But, it's done and if we don't win maybe KW should be looking for a new job in 2009.

 

18 game winner?

 

I'm reserving judgement on this trade until I see how the starting rotation shapes up. As it looks right now, though, I'm not thrilled with it.

[SoxFan562004]

He's a league average starting pitcher. That makes him better than "mediocre" but at the same time nothing special.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garlajo01.shtml

 

I know some people don't love stats, but FWIW, he has a Career ERA+ 106, 100 being the average, and I believe that stat is adjusted for ballparks and other factors. So Sabermetric followers would put him at slightly above average over his career.

 

And on the flipside, Cabrera batting wise OPB+ is 85 career, 95 last year, which is below average. That does not take into account fielding.

 

We'll see, it's November 19, if this is the only move KW makes I won't be thrilled, but he has time.

[AWhiteSoxinNJ]

Wait, what? Wasn't Iguchi like the ideal #2 hitter?

 

And he is a free agent too....

[jasonxctf]

wouldnt Rowand be a nice #2 too???

[Vance Law]

On the Score, just heard KW saying we got Cabrera with the intent of signing him long-term.

[longshot7]

Fernandez and McDowell had a grand total of 2.5 good seasons combined after leaving the Sox and both made a whole lot of money while doing being bad, especially Fernandez who was an absolute disaster for the final 3 years and $21M of his contract with the Marlins. Wells had to go and they were much better off not re-signing Colon (though that was not from a lack of trying.) The trend with 3 of those starters was big, big money, 1 or 2 good years immediately following their departure from the Sox then they break down and become useless by year 2 or 3.

 

Fernandez won a World series championships with Florida. Wells did not HAVE to go - he several very good seasons afterward, even pitching the Yankees & Red sox to the playoffs. He won 19 games for the 2003 Yankees. Colon has led the Angels to the playoffs several times as well, and won the Cy Young.

 

Long contracts are acceptable if players have won titles, cy youngs, or reached the playoffs. Then it's worth whatever you pay the guy for the seasons he's not so good.

 

Also, what about Foulke and the others?

 

Not re-signing pitching is a MISTAKE. To second guess this is bad baseball.

[caulfield12]

Garland for Cabrera even up is ridiculous and doesn't do anything positive for this team as far as I am concerned. We have two short stops now and are minus an 18 game winner. I have a real problem with trading quality pitching for a SS. But, it's done and if we don't win maybe KW should be looking for a new job in 2009.

 

 

As with any trade, we also have to see how it all plays out AND definitely see how much money is coming the Sox way, and what they do with it.

 

If they fill holes in CF or the bullpen or acquire a veteran starter (think someone like Kenny Rogers, albeit a couple of years too late) with that money, then it's starting to make more sense. And if Uribe can make the transition to 2B, if that's really their intention...which is certainly more logical than Jermaine Dye at 1B.

 

I remember Danny Wright had 10+ wins one season...just going by wins can be very misleading, especially with the offense we ran out there from 2004-2006 being well above major league average.

Edited November 19, 2007 by caulfield12

[SoxFan562004]

I'm sorry, but USS Mariner greatly undersells Garland. Garland should be easily replaceable? Really? Can they count for me how many pitchers, over the past three seasons, have pitched 600+ innings of an ERA+ of 110 or better?

I think that's what frustrates people about Garland. Average wise he had an ERA+ of 110 over the last 3 years, but there's a 105 in 06. He is just frustrating in how up and down he can be from start to start/season to season.

 

But he is a solid pitcher, and I don't think the Angels have crippled their team in any way by adding him.

[Chet Lemon]

I too am hopeful this is part of a bigger deal.

 

Contreras: he is solid, no injury problems ever

Danks: so solid, no question marks there

FLoyd: great stuff, pitched great, he should be a lock for the '08 rotation

 

[qwerty]

Gonna read this thread and get back to you guys. As it stands now... killing cabrera looks like the only option.