Thome, Crede, and Fields

[BamaDoc]

I think everyone would agree that the Sox stand a better chance to compete if Thome and Crede(assuming he remains) are healthy and productive. I think people would also agree Fields is a promising player. Now, with those presumptions, here is what I would do.

 

Thome hit 120 points higher off of righties(sub 200 vs lefties). This screams plattoon and resting him vs lefties also helps keep him healthy by giving his back periodic rest. (Some of his swings vs lefties may have HURT his back....sorry couldn't resist that). Since most pitchers don't finish games and closers are often righthanded, you have the pinch hit or threat of pinch hitting in the other teams late inning game management.

 

Josh Fields did well as a rookie and I don't think he needs more AAA time. I noticed he hit 110 points higher vs lefties than righties. Perfect way to get him some at bats while resting Thome. Solid PH threat vs lefties as well on off day. Still, a young player needs more at bats to develope and I would use him 1-2 days a week at third to allow Crede to rest his back as well. This may be a best of both worlds scenario. If Crede is not dealt at the trade deadline and Fields is performing okay you might even consider spelling Konerko with Fields every now and then.

 

Comments?

[Balta1701]

I think that in part, you are a wise man. I have long felt it made an immense amount of sense to pencil in Jim Thome for an extra day off a week on a day when there is a LHP starting.

 

However, I disagree with your argument on one point; I do not think the best candidates for a platoon with Thome are the 3rd base guys. If this team is interested in spending money and getting an OF, then there is no reason to put Josh Fields anywhere but 3rd base, and with a guy his age, every bit of playing time he gets is going to help him improve.

 

In addition, Joe Crede still costs us $5 million next season.

 

IMO, the best way to set things up is to do exactly as you say, give Big Jim an extra day off against a LHP every week, but use that DH slot to keep your other guys refreshed. Specifically, I'm thinking about a big RH bat who struggled with leg injuries last year: JD. For this to work, we need a RH hitting backup OF, but I think that moving JD to DH for a day a week will help keep his legs healthier than last year and keep his bat in the lineup more, and I am more concerned about the health of JD for our offense than I am with the performance of Crede/Fields.

[Texsox]

At 130 games he would be at the same as last season. I always wonder which time reference is best when discussing these types of issues. Purely from a health issue and rest, not a performance issue, is once a week rest better than every couple weeks taking two or three straight off? I don't know. Plus, and I do not want to jinx him, but I'd pencil him in for at least one 15 day stretch on the DL.

[Balta1701]

At 130 games he would be at the same as last season. I always wonder which time reference is best when discussing these types of issues. Purely from a health issue and rest, not a performance issue, is once a week rest better than every couple weeks taking two or three straight off? I don't know. Plus, and I do not want to jinx him, but I'd pencil him in for at least one 15 day stretch on the DL.

Purely from a performance issue, a day or two off a week would clearly be better than 2 or 3 straight weeks off. In fact, him playing 120 games but allowing us to fix the days he takes off would be significantly more useful than him playing 135 but missing 25 due to injury, because with injury, we can not take advantage of his splits. The best way to use Jim Thome is to maximize his number of at bats against right handed pitching. Every time he sits a game with a right handed starter, we lose. Against lefties, he is basically an average hitter. Against Righties, he's as good as anyone else in the game. The formula is right there; sit him extra against lefties if it helps him stay healthy against righties.

[Texsox]

Purely from a performance issue, a day or two off a week would clearly be better than 2 or 3 straight weeks off.

 

I meant he plays 14-16 games then takes two games off, not two weeks and perhaps combine that with a travel day.

[Balta1701]

I meant he plays 14-16 games then takes two games off, not two weeks and perhaps combine that with a travel day.

Whatever you mean...the key variable is whether or not we get to choose the days off. If we can choose the days off, then we can schedule them when there's a LHP on the mound starting. With Thome's extreme L/R splits, that's really the only thing that matters. I'm willing to sacrifice on the total # of games played by Jim/Swings taken by Jim if it helps maximize the number of AB's he gets against RHP. That's my whole point here; if giving Thome extra time off when there's a LHP on the mound prevents him from having to sit against RHP, it's a major improvement on our overall numbers.

[RME JICO]

Purely from a performance issue, a day or two off a week would clearly be better than 2 or 3 straight weeks off. In fact, him playing 120 games but allowing us to fix the days he takes off would be significantly more useful than him playing 135 but missing 25 due to injury, because with injury, we can not take advantage of his splits. The best way to use Jim Thome is to maximize his number of at bats against right handed pitching. Every time he sits a game with a right handed starter, we lose. Against lefties, he is basically an average hitter. Against Righties, he's as good as anyone else in the game. The formula is right there; sit him extra against lefties if it helps him stay healthy against righties.

Thome was not average vs Lefties, he was pretty brutal (.196 BA, .663 OPS).

 

You are spot on, almost every game thread that featured a lefty had similar ideas.

 

If Hall is healthy, they should look at doing something similar with catcher as well. Start hall on says where LHP start, not just with the Sunday lineup.

Edited November 21, 2007 by RME JICO

[santo=dorf]

I think everyone would agree that the Sox stand a better chance to compete if Thome and Crede(assuming he remains) are healthy and productive. I think people would also agree Fields is a promising player. Now, with those presumptions, here is what I would do.

 

Thome hit 120 points higher off of righties(sub 200 vs lefties). This screams plattoon and resting him vs lefties also helps keep him healthy by giving his back periodic rest. (Some of his swings vs lefties may have HURT his back....sorry couldn't resist that). Since most pitchers don't finish games and closers are often righthanded, you have the pinch hit or threat of pinch hitting in the other teams late inning game management.

 

Josh Fields did well as a rookie and I don't think he needs more AAA time. I noticed he hit 110 points higher vs lefties than righties. Perfect way to get him some at bats while resting Thome. Solid PH threat vs lefties as well on off day. Still, a young player needs more at bats to develope and I would use him 1-2 days a week at third to allow Crede to rest his back as well. This may be a best of both worlds scenario. If Crede is not dealt at the trade deadline and Fields is performing okay you might even consider spelling Konerko with Fields every now and then.

 

Comments?

I didn't realize Thome wasn't productive.

 

Maybe Frank Thomas should be platoon partner?

Thomas vs. LHP: 122 at-bats .336/.431/.631

Thomas vs. RHP: 409 at-bats .259/.360/.435

 

Who should the Blue Jays get to play DH when a right hander pitches? (that's like 75% of the time)

[Texsox]

Whatever you mean...the key variable is whether or not we get to choose the days off. If we can choose the days off, then we can schedule them when there's a LHP on the mound starting. With Thome's extreme L/R splits, that's really the only thing that matters. I'm willing to sacrifice on the total # of games played by Jim/Swings taken by Jim if it helps maximize the number of AB's he gets against RHP. That's my whole point here; if giving Thome extra time off when there's a LHP on the mound prevents him from having to sit against RHP, it's a major improvement on our overall numbers.

 

OK, I would agree. And since many mangers like the R-L-R-L kind of split in their rotations, it would be tought to find many back to back LHP games to have him sit.

[BamaDoc]

Here was why I liked using Fields(assuming Crede is on the team as primary 3b)

 

 

Thome: vs LHP avg. .196 OB+SP .664

vs RHP avg. .315 1.123

 

Fields: vs LHP avg. .321 OB+SP 1.069

vs RHP avg .213 OB+SP .677

 

Their averages are nearly mirror images. As much as Thome mashed rhp that is what Fields did to lhp. Hopefully, Fields can improve on what were pretty dismal numbers vs rhp with experience hence why I would still work him in for Crede.

[joejoesox]

Here was why I liked using Fields(assuming Crede is on the team as primary 3b)

Thome: vs LHP avg. .196 OB+SP .664

vs RHP avg. .315 1.123

 

Fields: vs LHP avg. .321 OB+SP 1.069

vs RHP avg .213 OB+SP .677

 

Their averages are nearly mirror images. As much as Thome mashed rhp that is what Fields did to lhp. Hopefully, Fields can improve on what were pretty dismal numbers vs rhp with experience hence why I would still work him in for Crede.

 

didn't fields go deep off santana twice in the same game? towards the end of the year

 

edit: yup he did, http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270921109

Edited November 21, 2007 by joesaiditstrue

[elrockinMT]

It is a bit confusing how we discuss certain players based on money. Some it's ok, but others we use it against them. Crede is due $5M next year? So what? Our new SS will make about $8M. He is a former gold glove winner. Crede is superior to Fields with the glove. We have two gold glovers manning the left side of the infield and Konerko is not bad on the right side. We don't know for sure what shakes out at 2B. Upgrade to a gold glover in CF and we look pretty good. You win by defense and pitching. We lose Crede and the defense suffers. Keep Crede at 3B and negotiate a 3-5 year deal.

Edited November 21, 2007 by elrockinMT

[Chisoxfn]

Thome was not average vs Lefties, he was pretty brutal (.196 BA, .663 OPS).

 

You are spot on, almost every game thread that featured a lefty had similar ideas.

 

If Hall is healthy, they should look at doing something similar with catcher as well. Start hall on says where LHP start, not just with the Sunday lineup.

That was the plan. Unfortunately Hall got hurt and than went on to have one of the worse seasons I've ever seen out of a Sox player (than again I could say that about a few people, hell I could say that this past years Sox team was the worse I'd ever seen based on just how horribly they played the game).

[Chisoxfn]

I didn't realize Thome wasn't productive.

 

Maybe Frank Thomas should be platoon partner?

Thomas vs. LHP: 122 at-bats .336/.431/.631

Thomas vs. RHP: 409 at-bats .259/.360/.435

 

Who should the Blue Jays get to play DH when a right hander pitches? (that's like 75% of the time)

Thomas is still posting a respectable .360 OBP against righties and a respectable .790 or so OPS (is it great, no, but it ain't bad either and the OBP is above average).

[santo=dorf]

Thomas is still posting a respectable .360 OBP against righties and a respectable .790 or so OPS (is it great, no, but it ain't bad either and the OBP is above average).

A .790 OPS from a DH 75% of the time is a freaking joke.

 

In 2007 Jim Thome had a 1.123 OPS against RHP only behind Ortiz and Chipper Jones (1.171.) His OBP was .455

In 2006 Jim Thome had a 1.203 OPS against RHP which lead ALL of the MLB. His OBP was .454.

 

Thomas' .796 OPS ranked 115th overall tied with Gary Matthews Jr, and Jarrod Saltalmacchia (only 210 PA's however.) For DH's he was 6th out 11, and his OBP was 8th.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/battin...nd=a&pos=dh

[witesoxfan]

A .790 OPS from a DH 75% of the time is a freaking joke.

 

In 2007 Jim Thome had a 1.123 OPS against RHP only behind Ortiz and Chipper Jones (1.171.) His OBP was .455

In 2006 Jim Thome had a 1.203 OPS against RHP which lead ALL of the MLB. His OBP was .454.

 

Thomas' .796 OPS ranked 115th overall tied with Gary Matthews Jr, and Jarrod Saltalmacchia (only 210 PA's however.) For DH's he was 6th out 11, and his OBP was 8th.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/battin...nd=a&pos=dh

 

Well, if you're going to include Thome's 2006 numbers, you have to include Thomas's .912 OPS against RHP in 2006; I don't know where it ranks, but I'd bet it's not bad.

[santo=dorf]

Well, if you're going to include Thome's 2006 numbers, you have to include Thomas's .912 OPS against RHP in 2006; I don't know where it ranks, but I'd bet it's not bad.

Click that link and change it to 2006.

 

for some reason it's listing mike Piazza for SD and Vidro for Washington. Yahoo is doing the same thing with Vidro. Foxsports only recognizes 4 DH's (Thomas, Hafner, Ortiz, and Thome) So either Thomas was the worst DH against RHP in 2006 or he was in the middle of the pack ahead of only NL players (Vidro, Piazza,) injury prone (sweeney,) and Carl Everett.

[Colorado Sox Fan]

Do the stats point to Thome as a clutch hitter? I consider Fields to be clutch, because he had home runs or extra base hits late that tied or won games. Crede was a clutch hitter for one half of 2005 and the post season. Not sure if he still is.

 

[southsideirish71]

It is a bit confusing how we discuss certain players based on money. Some it's ok, but others we use it against them. Crede is due $5M next year? So what? Our new SS will make about $8M. He is a former gold glove winner. Crede is superior to Fields with the glove. We have two gold glovers manning the left side of the infield and Konerko is not bad on the right side. We don't know for sure what shakes out at 2B. Upgrade to a gold glover in CF and we look pretty good. You win by defense and pitching. We lose Crede and the defense suffers. Keep Crede at 3B and negotiate a 3-5 year deal.

 

His agent doesnt want to negotiate. He wants to go to Free Agency and make as much money as humanly possible. How many times does this need to be typed. Crede is as good as gone. You might as well fall in love with the idea. When Robin Ventura left I was upset, and he was a more complete ballplayer than Crede has ever been.

Edited November 23, 2007 by southsideirish71

[witesoxfan]

We don't know for sure what shakes out at 2B. Upgrade to a gold glover in CF and we look pretty good.

 

His name is Danny Richar; do some people seriously think he isn't going to start next year? He may have a platoon partner, but he is going to be given every chance and more to start.

[Whitewashed in '05]

His name is Danny Richar; do some people seriously think he isn't going to start next year? He may have a platoon partner, but he is going to be given every chance and more to start.

Yeah, he is being given 2B like Anderson was given CF... lets hope the results aren't the same though...