A Johan Santana trade might be dependent on the status of Francisco Li

[jackie hayes]

rotoworld saying the Sawks have included Ellsbury...but taken Lester out. I don't quite see the point of that...

[fathom]

Ellsbury might be the most overrated prospect/player in the history of baseball.

[jackie hayes]

Ellsbury might be the most overrated prospect/player in the history of baseball.

Besides that, the Twins obviously need a ML-ready pitcher in one of these trades (Santana/Nathan).

[Chombi]

As good as Santana is, he's only 1/5 of a rotation. Especially for a team that has had such problems finding 5 merely competent starters, I think 2 pitchers of that caliber is too much to give up. There's something to be said for quantity as well as quality -- especially with the talent of those three.

 

Anyway, suppose you offer (say) Hughes, Melky, Tabata, and a lesser pitcher. Even if the Red Sox manage to beat that, at least you've taken Buchholz away.

 

I wouldn't give up everything for Cabrera. I'd be willing to give up a lot -- based on the idea that we'd get a lot back if we trade him later. Probably not as much, but enough that it would make it worth the risk.

 

Santana is the best 1/5 you can have though. He'd win 20+ easily imo.

 

Hughes and Joba aren't both going in the deal and I can't imagine you'd mean Kennedy as the 2 pitchers you were refering to. A) he isn't going and B) he hasn't proven anything... so I am lost as to who the other guy you were talkin about that Santana would need to outperform other then Hughes.

 

Santana takes a Yankee playoff team and gives them what they lack. A go to guy. He can win 2 games for them in a series in the playoffs and that is something they'll need. Not to mention they will have no problem locking him up.

 

All they care about is this year. They care about next but what I mean is this. They're a playoff team and adding Santana while subtracting minimal contribution from last seasons team is huge.

 

Now we know the Yankees so don't think for a second that in their minds, dealing a Hughes and others is completely forgotten with the arrival of Johan. If they add Kennedy so be it. Their is a surplus of SP's that will be available via FA or trades next season.

 

Guys like Giambi and his 21 mil will be off the payroll. Abreu and his 17 mil. Mussina has 11 mil. Pavano and his 11 mil. Even Farnsworth comes off the payroll with like 6 mil.

 

Basic addition brings us to 66 mil free. Some will go into Johan but even then it won't stop the Yanks from spending. They know what is available and Santana is a brilliant move for them because he contributes next season instead of 09. There isn't a bidding war in FA with multiple teams, including your BoSox. And yea you give up a great young arm but he isn't proven yet and I don't think he will be on Johans level anytime soon.

[BlackBetsy]

Ellsbury might be the most overrated prospect/player in the history of baseball.

...since the last Red Sox prospect Gammons has overhyped to push the market value up for his team.

[fathom]

...since the last Red Sox prospect Gammons has overhyped to push the market value up for his team.

 

Ya, that Hanley Ramirez jabroni is bad.

[jackie hayes]

Santana is the best 1/5 you can have though. He'd win 20+ easily imo.

 

Hughes and Joba aren't both going in the deal and I can't imagine you'd mean Kennedy as the 2 pitchers you were refering to. A) he isn't going and B) he hasn't proven anything... so I am lost as to who the other guy you were talkin about that Santana would need to outperform other then Hughes.

 

Santana takes a Yankee playoff team and gives them what they lack. A go to guy. He can win 2 games for them in a series in the playoffs and that is something they'll need. Not to mention they will have no problem locking him up.

 

All they care about is this year. They care about next but what I mean is this. They're a playoff team and adding Santana while subtracting minimal contribution from last seasons team is huge.

 

Now we know the Yankees so don't think for a second that in their minds, dealing a Hughes and others is completely forgotten with the arrival of Johan. If they add Kennedy so be it. Their is a surplus of SP's that will be available via FA or trades next season.

 

Guys like Giambi and his 21 mil will be off the payroll. Abreu and his 17 mil. Mussina has 11 mil. Pavano and his 11 mil. Even Farnsworth comes off the payroll with like 6 mil.

 

Basic addition brings us to 66 mil free. Some will go into Johan but even then it won't stop the Yanks from spending. They know what is available and Santana is a brilliant move for them because he contributes next season instead of 09. There isn't a bidding war in FA with multiple teams, including your BoSox. And yea you give up a great young arm but he isn't proven yet and I don't think he will be on Johans level anytime soon.

The rumor was Hughes and Kennedy (in addition to Melky). It was more or less shot down.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here...

[rockren]

Ellsbury might be the most overrated prospect/player in the history of baseball.

 

 

Ditto....

[rockren]

Ya, that Hanley Ramirez jabroni is bad.

 

Yeah he's only the best Shortstop in baseball.

 

Before you all come with your fav shortstops, realize I know that it's subjective.....but I'd take Hanley.

[rockren]

The rumor was Hughes and Kennedy (in addition to Melky). It was more or less shot down.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here...

 

These teams are just posturing...if the Yanks really wouldn't deal Hughes AND Kennedy for Johan, while letting him go to Boston...

 

I can't even predict that outcome because it's too far-fetched.

[jackie hayes]

These teams are just posturing...if the Yanks really wouldn't deal Hughes AND Kennedy for Johan, while letting him go to Boston...

 

I can't even predict that outcome because it's too far-fetched.

Not really.

[Gregory Pratt]

Will the last superstar to leave Minnesota kindly drop a few dollars in the collection plate on your way out to help pay for the new stadium?

 

The Timberwolves traded Kevin Garnett in the summer. Center fielder Torii Hunter signed with the Angels last week. And now it looks like the Twins will trade two-time Cy Young winner Johan Santana. (Waiting to see whether the Yankees or Red Sox get Santana is like waiting to see whether your favorite and most dependable co-worker is hired away by Halliburton or Wal-Mart.) Next thing you know, Adrian Peterson will tear his remaining ligaments, Joe Mauer will permanently shave his sideburns and Garrison Keillor will get laryngitis.

 

 

Watching so many beloved athletes leave is especially cruel for Minnesotans, who were forced to bail out the Target Center owners four years after the arena opened and recently agreed to pay for a $522 million stadium for the Twins. A new stadium was necessary, taxpayers were told repeatedly for a decade, because the Twins couldn't be competitive in the Metrodome, where they have won two World Series and also have won the AL Central four times in the past six seasons.

 

 

Building a new ballpark (which despite a half-billion-dollar price tag won't even include a retractable roof) is supposedly what would enable the Twins to keep star players such as Hunter and Santana. Well, maybe not.

 

That's because the Twins are still owned by the Pohlads, who approach team ownership differently than say, Mark Cuban. Carl Pohlad is a billionaire banker who pinches his coins so often he could be sued for sexual harassment by Susan B. Anthony. Pohlad got his start by delivering foreclosure notices to farmers in the Depression (hey, someone had to do it), so if Twins fans are disappointed that their half-billion dollar subsidy isn't sufficient to keep Hunter and Santana, that's just tough. Given that Pohlad offered the team up for contraction to pocket even more loot a couple of years ago, fans should consider themselves lucky he doesn't also trade Mauer and Justin Morneau as well, then instruct Smithers to release the hounds during "Take Me Out to the Ballgame."

 

 

New general manager Bill Smith -- a good, knowledgeable baseball man -- is therefore forced to make the best of the situation. Does he risk $130 million to $150 million over six years on a great, hard-working pitcher who has been very durable but who nonetheless could fall into a manhole? Or does he trade a pitcher at peak value in exchange for promising prospects who are far cheaper and may prove to be quite effective in the long run (or maybe not).

 

 

After 20-plus years of Pohlad ownership, do Twins fans really have to ask?

 

 

The thing is, the right trade could make sense. There certainly is precedent in Minnesota. In 1989, the Twins traded Frank Viola for five pitchers, including two, Kevin Tapani and Rick Aguilera, who were instrumental in helping them win the World Series two years later. In 1998, they traded Chuck Knoblauch for Eric Milton and Cristian Guzman, and both had some very good seasons in Minnesota and helped lift the Twins out of the quagmire that was the mid to late '90s.

 

 

So trading Santana could work out in the long run, but it's still an uncomfortable choice. And if Joba Chamberlain, Jacoby Ellsbury and Clay Buchholz truly are untouchable, the choice becomes easier: No.

 

 

If no one overwhelms Smith with a trade, the Twins should pursue a third option. Keep Santana for next season and see what happens. If they do and Francisco Liriano is healthy and dominant again, the Twins could very well win the World Series next season, particularly if the newly acquired Delmon Young fulfills his potential. Sure, that might cost the Twins some promising trade opportunities. But trying to win it all is a worthy goal and no less risky than hoping young prospects turn into stars. Sometimes they do. Often, they don't. (The mere mention of Rich Becker's name still causes Twins fans to flinch uncontrollably.)

 

 

Of course, the real solution is for Pohlad to simply open up the wallet and thank loyal fans for building the stadium by re-signing the best pitcher in baseball. Sure, it's a lot of money, but not quite so much when you bear in mind the county is spending hundreds of millions on a new stadium that will greatly increase ownership profits.

 

 

The most important thing about a new ballpark, after all, is having a team worth watching when it opens.

[hitlesswonder]

Great column. Pohlad really has to be one of the worst owners in baseball. It's amazing that the Twins organization is as successful as they are.

[whitesoxfan99]

Ellsbury might be the most overrated prospect/player in the history of baseball.

 

I really can't see how adding Ellsbury and removing Lester would top the Yankees offer of Hughes/Melky/3rd prospect.

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm definitely in the minority here but I'd like Santana to stay in Minnesota, just because it's where he belongs. I believe in franchise players, even in free agency, and I think it's a travesty that the Twins and the Fans and the city will lose Johan Santana because Pohlad is super stingy. That's f***ed up.

[southsideirish71]

I'm definitely in the minority here but I'd like Santana to stay in Minnesota, just because it's where he belongs. I believe in franchise players, even in free agency, and I think it's a travesty that the Twins and the Fans and the city will lose Johan Santana because Pohlad is super stingy. That's f***ed up.

 

I am a whitesox fan. I hope that every marquee player on every AL Central team moves on to the National League. Hopefully CC finds his way to the NL next year as well. Thats a whole lot of guaranteed losses out of our season right there.

[BlackBetsy]

Ya, that Hanley Ramirez jabroni is bad.

Gammons is now 1 for what? Craig Hansen was supposed to be the second coming.

[Chombi]

The rumor was Hughes and Kennedy (in addition to Melky). It was more or less shot down.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here...

 

Yea I kind of lost myself there. I was in a hurry so I appologize.

 

Basically, only one of Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy are going so I wasn't sure what two pitchers that were spoke of that needed to be replaced by Santana. Everything I have seen lately is Hughes, Melky + one other guy. 5 guys are off limits, including Kennedy and Joba.

 

So I was saying in regards to the comment of a deal not solving the Yanks problems that it actually could.

 

Only Melky really contributed a lot last season and they have 3 OF's so he can be replaced.

 

Santana is the ace they lack and could've used in the playoffs the last few years. Sure they could use guys stepping up at the plate but with a guy like Johan, it will only be a one or two run game. Johan is exactly what this team needs to take the next step next season.

 

Dealing young pitchers surely should bother them but there appears to be a ton of them hitting the market next season (excluding Peavy I heard). If things backfire next year or they come closer to winning it, don't be surprised to see them deal more prospects again for another arm/bat. They have a lot of money coming off the payroll and can really change the layout of their team.

 

I think that is what I was essentially getting at. Everyone knows they'll spend and next seasons class looks to be the best in years. So I think that factors into them deciding to move certain players now.

 

[Chombi]

Gammons is now 1 for what? Craig Hansen was supposed to be the second coming.

 

Yea Hansen and Dave Murphy.

[jackie hayes]

Yea I kind of lost myself there. I was in a hurry so I appologize.

 

Basically, only one of Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy are going so I wasn't sure what two pitchers that were spoke of that needed to be replaced by Santana. Everything I have seen lately is Hughes, Melky + one other guy. 5 guys are off limits, including Kennedy and Joba.

 

So I was saying in regards to the comment of a deal not solving the Yanks problems that it actually could.

 

Only Melky really contributed a lot last season and they have 3 OF's so he can be replaced.

 

Santana is the ace they lack and could've used in the playoffs the last few years. Sure they could use guys stepping up at the plate but with a guy like Johan, it will only be a one or two run game. Johan is exactly what this team needs to take the next step next season.

 

Dealing young pitchers surely should bother them but there appears to be a ton of them hitting the market next season (excluding Peavy I heard). If things backfire next year or they come closer to winning it, don't be surprised to see them deal more prospects again for another arm/bat. They have a lot of money coming off the payroll and can really change the layout of their team.

 

I think that is what I was essentially getting at. Everyone knows they'll spend and next seasons class looks to be the best in years. So I think that factors into them deciding to move certain players now.

From what I've heard, Joba is completely offlimits, they'll deal Hughes, though they'd prefer to deal Kennedy. I don't think Kennedy is offlimits, but he IS offlimits as a third player in the deal.

 

The rumor was cooked up by someone in the Minny Star-Trib. (It's in the thread; read back from that post you quoted through the exchange I had with Balta to find it.) All I'm saying is that I wouldn't deal Hughes AND Kennedy if I were the Yankees. I think that's too much and leaves too many questions about their rotation.

 

Since the Yankees apparently won't offer both, it's neither here nor there. Just debate about a defunct rumor.

 

About the fa market next year -- However strong the fa market next year looks, some of those pitchers will be signed, some will disappoint, some will get injured. And anyway, the Yanks have problems now. Pettitte, Clemens, and Igawa handled close to 400 innings last year, and they're all iffy or worthless. They can't afford to cash in all their kids for Santana, and it would be a big overpayment, even for him.

[Gregory Pratt]

I'd like Santana to go to the Yankees because that would mean I get to watch Johan Santana and Roy Halladay on Opening Day, 2008, in Yankee Stadium's last beginning.

[Rowand44]

I am a whitesox fan. I hope that every marquee player on every AL Central team moves on to the National League. Hopefully CC finds his way to the NL next year as well. Thats a whole lot of guaranteed losses out of our season right there.

Ya, that.

[That funky motion]

Hank Steinbrenner:

 

And if the Yankees are to be a part of trade talks, "now" means by Monday, according to Steinbrenner, who said: "The Twins are aware of it, that I'm not going to wait much longer. And the truth of the matter is, they don't want to be stuck with only one team to deal with. If they're stuck with just Boston, they're going to get a lot less. I'm not going to be played. This is not a game. This is serious business. I'm not going to be played, us against the Red Sox. That's not going to happen."

[Rowand44]

Hank Steinbrenner:

 

And if the Yankees are to be a part of trade talks, "now" means by Monday, according to Steinbrenner, who said: "The Twins are aware of it, that I'm not going to wait much longer. And the truth of the matter is, they don't want to be stuck with only one team to deal with. If they're stuck with just Boston, they're going to get a lot less. I'm not going to be played. This is not a game. This is serious business. I'm not going to be played, us against the Red Sox. That's not going to happen."

Ya, and ARod will never be a Yankee again either.

[Harry Chappas]

Hank sounds kind he is dealing with a used car salesman. The Twins GM should come back and say, ok we'll keep him. Give us what we want or f-off. The Twins have the upper hand, then can keep him.

 

The condesending Yankee approach is great.