Rowand out of picture

[kwolf68]

 

 

The Red Sox are idiots. they are a good team and a good org, but they are idiots. Asking for 3 prospects for Coco Crisp is lunacy.

 

I don't think I'd even give them 2 prospects, unless one was a dud. I'd give them one good prospecst and one slug...I'd maybe deal Adam Russell/Oneli Perez + Heath Phillips for him, but if they are thinking of a deal like Gio, Sweeney, and Shelby they can go play in traffic.

 

Epstein is on acid.

[Texsox]

Well...they aren't really worth that, themselves. The players as a whole are probably worth what they are paid, but the older players are peaching some of the value off the younger players who have no choice but to play for peanuts.

 

Technicality, I know. Just saying.

 

And I think there are at least two definitions of "worth it". One is a guy whose stats fall favorably with the middle of the salaries for that position. Sox fans never want to have the highest paid player in that stat range.

 

The second is the player whose popularity transends his stats and sells tickets. The front office and sales departments are drooling, the manager is fuming.

[Texsox]

The Red Sox are idiots. they are a good team and a good org, but they are idiots. Asking for 3 prospects for Coco Crisp is lunacy.

 

I don't think I'd even give them 2 prospects, unless one was a dud. I'd give them one good prospecst and one slug...I'd maybe deal Adam Russell/Oneli Perez + Heath Phillips for him, but if they are thinking of a deal like Gio, Sweeney, and Shelby they can go play in traffic.

 

Epstein is on acid.

 

Someone giving them that is lunacy, asking is smart. You have to start somewhere.

[TheBigHurt]

Crisp is just not that great. Neither is Taveras. Not worth the money/prospects/players they would cost.

 

I see these types of posts often, but I guess I can't totally disagree, but that tells where we're going to be the next many years if we aren't going to dish anything out for good players.

 

[kwolf68]

Someone giving them that is lunacy, asking is smart. You have to start somewhere.

 

 

Trouble is, if you are so far out of the park you turn people off. I think Texas did that. They heard the initial offer and it was so obscene Texas just shut down negotiations. This isn't Willie Mayes here, this is Coco Crisp, a career average hitter. Yes, he plays good defense, but Brian Anderson plays good defense. If we are going to part with multiple prospects, then the player has to be a major upgrade over what we currently have. Crisp isn't that and least not to this degree. And trust me when I say I am no Brian Anderson fan, so I'm not coming from that perspective either.

 

Three prospects isn't even an initial offer, it's a joke.

[hitlesswonder]

Three prospects isn't even an initial offer, it's a joke.

 

When Hunter gets $90M, asking for 3 prospects isn't a joke (I also read they'd take a major leaguer and one top prospect). Lot's of teams need OF help and can't afford Hunter/Rowand/Jones. MN, FLA, and the White Sox are 3 such teams. The Red Sox may not get 3 top prospects, but they'll get a lot in return for Crisp.

[jackie hayes]

And I think there are at least two definitions of "worth it". One is a guy whose stats fall favorably with the middle of the salaries for that position. Sox fans never want to have the highest paid player in that stat range.

 

The second is the player whose popularity transends his stats and sells tickets. The front office and sales departments are drooling, the manager is fuming.

That's fine, there are different sources of value. But if someone asks, Does this player by himself contribute value (of whatever kind) equal to his salary?, I think the answer is obviously no. Teams get a lot of surplus value from young players playing for the minimum, part of which can be captured by older players during bargaining. That creates a disconnect -- people say, He can't be worth that much money, and they're right in a sense.

 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that system, just that it's important to remember that this is a special sort of market which can create a wedge between true individual value and salary. So the amazement people have about player salaries -- it isn't wholly unjustified, anyway.

[NorthSideSox72]

I see these types of posts often, but I guess I can't totally disagree, but that tells where we're going to be the next many years if we aren't going to dish anything out for good players.

You consider Crisp and Taveras good players? I guess its subjective, but, I think there are many better options out there. In fact in the case of Taveras, we already have that player in house for 400k a year. Why get another one that costs more? Crisp I can see being a viable option - just not for the kind of trade value the Sawx are running out there.

 

 

[spiderman]

If Joe Cowley is correct, and Aaron Rowand is no longer on the White Sox list of options:

 

- The market says that Rowand is probably going to get at least $12 million in 4-5 year deal, and I am glad that the White Sox aren't willing to pay that. Rowand is a good player, but at that price, I'd expect him to be an all-star caliber player, but I think last season was a career year. Yes, he'd upgrade our current CF situation, but that's a lot of money to invest.

 

1) I am assuming that Kenny Williams is looking for a leadoff hitter through a trade, and CoCo Crisp is probably the leading option, should they be able to work a deal out. He's only making about $5 million for this season and next, but, assuming they do acquire a leadoff hitter in CF, do the White Sox really consider putting Jerry Owens in LF as a #9 hitter ? It would give Guillen the speedy options in his lineup at #1, #2 and #9, but this is hardly, in my opinion, a championship level lineup.

 

2) If the White Sox were offering Hunter $15 million a season, should we still expect this money to be eventually spent this off-season ?

 

3) Can the White Sox afford two trades to beef up their OF ? We've heard rumors about M.Cabrera, C.Crisp and C.Crawford. I am assuming that acquiring Crisp would make two trades hard to make, but could they acquire both Crisp and Crawford without decimating their farm system ?

[Balta1701]

1) I am assuming that Kenny Williams is looking for a leadoff hitter through a trade, and CoCo Crisp is probably the leading option, should they be able to work a deal out. He's only making about $5 million for this season and next, but, assuming they do acquire a leadoff hitter in CF, do the White Sox really consider putting Jerry Owens in LF as a #9 hitter ? It would give Guillen the speedy options in his lineup at #1, #2 and #9, but this is hardly, in my opinion, a championship level lineup.

 

2) If the White Sox were offering Hunter $15 million a season, should we still expect this money to be eventually spent this off-season ?

 

3) Can the White Sox afford two trades to beef up their OF ? We've heard rumors about M.Cabrera, C.Crisp and C.Crawford. I am assuming that acquiring Crisp would make two trades hard to make, but could they acquire both Crisp and Crawford without decimating their farm system ?

1. Like I said earlier in this thread, does an OF of Owens, Crisp, Dye excite anyone?

 

2. Who else is there to spend that money on if we pick up Crisp instead? We'd no longer really need Jones although that'd be nice, but if you pick up Jones why bother getting Crisp.

 

3. I see it as nearly impossible that the Sox have the talent to go after more than 1 of those guys.

[scenario]

I don't believe that either Crisp or Taveras is an upgrade over players we have now.

 

I'd take Jerry Owens over either of them, except for my concern over Owens' struggles in hitting lefties.

 

So... given the choice I'd much rather platoon Owens/Anderson in CF than overpay to pick up fringe players like Crisp or Taveras.

[RME JICO]

1. Like I said earlier in this thread, does an OF of Owens, Crisp, Dye excite anyone?

 

2. Who else is there to spend that money on if we pick up Crisp instead? We'd no longer really need Jones although that'd be nice, but if you pick up Jones why bother getting Crisp.

 

3. I see it as nearly impossible that the Sox have the talent to go after more than 1 of those guys.

 

1. Not really. One of Owens or Crisp is fine, but not both.

 

2. A Starter, another Reliever, or 2B

 

If Rowand is out of the picture, doesn't that mean he will sign with the Sox within the next week?

 

That is how KW works. He completely shuts down all rumors about a player to come back and swipe him. Otherwise, KW is going to get someone that has not even been discussed.

[iamshack]

The last 2 years in Boston, in what a lot of people would consider a hitter's park for most righties, Coco has hit 8 and 6 home runs, respectively.

 

Well, Coco had 378 at bats as a lefty and only 148 as a righty, so that doesn't really tell the story. He certainly did not bat right-handed purposefully to take advantage of the monster or anything.

 

Over the past three years (74 at bats), Coco has a .956 OPS while hitting at the Cell.

 

Another interesting thing (wow, ESPN has a lot of great splits posted nowadays), is that Coco hit .323, had an OBP of .370, and an OPS of .828 as a leadoff hitter last year.

 

Just some things to keep in mind...

[Texsox]

Anderson is the best option "for the money".

[Balta1701]

2. A Starter, another Reliever, or 2B

In this market, who out there is even close to deserving of that money at any of those positions? Carlos Silva? Octavio Dotel? Mark Loretta?

 

Right now, if you want to spend that money, the only position on the field I see where it makes sense to spend it is in the OF on preferably Jones or possibly Rowand/Fukudome.

[southsider2k5]

This could mean the Dodgers are NOT in the running for Rowand? Does any of the left coasters know if Coletti has a Kenny Williams type history of truth telling?

 

http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition...lines-pe-sports

 

Pricey deals make the GM think twice about acquiring veterans. Plus, he's 'curious' to see what the younger players have in store.

By Dylan Hernandez, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

November 27, 2007

Citing the high asking prices for top players on the trade market and the lack of quality among free agents, Dodgers General Manager Ned Colletti hinted Monday that Manager Joe Torre could be the team's only high-profile acquisition of the off-season.

 

That would leave the Dodgers with a team that again would be short on experience, something Colletti and Torre said they didn't mind when speaking at a news conference announcing their exhibition game at the Coliseum against the Boston Red Sox on March 29.

 

"There's potential for change, but as we look at the young players that we played a lot this past year, we're less likely to fill in [positions with veterans] as much as we have in the past and more likely we'll give the younger players a greater opportunity," Colletti said. "I'm curious to see how our young players, who really had a chance this past year to play full time, I'm curious to see what another year does."

 

Torre said he is "comfortable" with the team's nucleus being what it is today. Torre said that despite the reliance on youth, he is convinced that owners Frank and Jamie McCourt are "determined to bring a winner here."

 

"I've managed teams that when you present [something] to the organization, they say, 'We can't do it today,' " Torre said. "That's not the case here."

 

Colletti called pitching a "constant priority" and Torre said that facet of the game would be the key to the team's success. But Colletti said that trade demands for "the pitching that draws your attention is the same" as those for a middle-of-the-order bat -- that is, very high and more than the Dodgers are willing to part with.

 

When the Dodgers approached the Florida Marlins about All-Star third baseman Miguel Cabrera, they were asked for four players in return.

 

The top pitcher on the trading block, Johan Santana of the Minnesota Twins, is a free agent at the end of the 2008 season and has a no-trade clause in his contract. Signing him would not only cost the Dodgers multiple players, but probably also a six-year contract extension that would start in 2009 and be worth in the neighborhood of $20 million per season.

 

The Dodgers made that kind of commitment to Kevin Brown when they signed him to a seven-year deal that made him baseball's first $100-million player leading up to the 1999 season. Brown was frequently injured and averaged nine wins over the duration of the contract.

 

The Dodgers have approached the Baltimore Orioles about left-hander Erik Bedard, but those talks have stalled, according to a baseball source. The Orioles are waiting to see the outcome of the Dodgers' pursuit of Cabrera because the players they want for Bedard could be the same players that the Marlins are seeking in exchange for Cabrera.

 

A more affordable option could be Hiroki Kuroda, a free-agent pitcher from Japan.

 

Outside of the signing of Torre, the off-season has been a relatively quiet one for the Dodgers, as they never made offers to center fielder Torii Hunter and third baseman Mike Lowell.

 

Their scheduled meeting Sunday with Hunter, 32, was called off when Hunter signed with the Angels on Wednesday. Lowell, 33, was seeking a four- or five-year deal to part with the Boston Red Sox, but the Dodgers had something shorter in mind. Lowell re-signed with Boston for three years.

 

But two other free agents of interest remain on the market: center fielders Aaron Rowand and Andruw Jones.

 

Rowand grew up in Glendora, and his agent, Craig Landis, has said that the Gold Glove winner counts the Dodgers among his top potential destinations. But there are questions whether he can hit for power outside of hitter-friendly Citizens Bank Park in Philadelphia.

 

Jones' batting average dipped to a career-low .222 last season with Atlanta, but he hit 26 home runs and drove in 94 runs. He also won his 10th Gold Glove in a row.

 

Kosuke Fukudome, a free-agent outfielder from Japan, doesn't appear to be a priority for the Dodgers.

 

The Dodgers have expressed an interest in free-agent first baseman Tony Clark, said his agent, John Boggs.

 

Clark, 35, split time with Conor Jackson at first base for Arizona last season but managed to hit 17 home runs and drive in 51 runs. He has a two-year offer to return to the Diamondbacks.

[michelangelosmonkey]

I see these types of posts often, but I guess I can't totally disagree, but that tells where we're going to be the next many years if we aren't going to dish anything out for good players.

Bill James used to preach that it was better to spend a ton on a superstar and surround him with C players than spend an equal amount on a bunch of B players. I always thought it was crazy to spend $15 million on 33 year old Torii Hunter when he was never more than about a B player (.800 OPS guy) and was likely on the down side of his career. Same with Rowand. Same with Andruw Jones. I would bow to KW if he had the guts to trade for Miguel Cabrera...you get a 24 year old who looks like a 1.000 OPS guy and then give him a 10 year $250 million contract. You build around him as the Sox did with Frank in the '90's. And if it costs Sweeney, Gio, Broadway and Carter? So be it. All this talk about Melky and Rowand and Coco Crisp seems like roster filling rather than shooting to win. And frankly...KW has shown more of that gambling nature than the names above suggest. Trading for David Wells, Thome, Garcia, Vazquez...trading top prospects like Chris Young, Jeremy Reed, Gio, McCarthy...that's the swing for the fences Kenny that makes the Sox so much fun to follow.

[sircaffey]

The bottom line is that Crisp or Anderson in CF get the Sox to the same place. Watching from home in October. If Crisp in CF is "going for it", god help us.

[iamshack]

Bill James used to preach that it was better to spend a ton on a superstar and surround him with C players than spend an equal amount on a bunch of B players. I always thought it was crazy to spend $15 million on 33 year old Torii Hunter when he was never more than about a B player (.800 OPS guy) and was likely on the down side of his career. Same with Rowand. Same with Andruw Jones. I would bow to KW if he had the guts to trade for Miguel Cabrera...you get a 24 year old who looks like a 1.000 OPS guy and then give him a 10 year $250 million contract. You build around him as the Sox did with Frank in the '90's. And if it costs Sweeney, Gio, Broadway and Carter? So be it. All this talk about Melky and Rowand and Coco Crisp seems like roster filling rather than shooting to win. And frankly...KW has shown more of that gambling nature than the names above suggest. Trading for David Wells, Thome, Garcia, Vazquez...trading top prospects like Chris Young, Jeremy Reed, Gio, McCarthy...that's the swing for the fences Kenny that makes the Sox so much fun to follow.

 

Than what happened to those ARod-led Texas Ranger squads?

 

What James says though probably has never been more accurate than it is now. And when you hear KW talk about a "market correction," he isn't talking about the money being paid to the top-tier players. He's talking about the money being paid for absolute mediocrity. Carlos Silva wanting 4/$40. Kyle Lohse wanting 3/$21. I wonder what the difference is in average salary between pre-arbitration eligible players and players who have fulfilled their major league service time. It has to be absolutely astronomical. Now that being the case, is there actually any doubt that it would be better to play kids making the minimum with a few top-tier players mixed-in as opposed to spending $5-10 million per player? The difference in skill level between pre-arbitration eligible players and average major league players is nowhere near the difference in salary. And this is why pre-arb "prospects" are so amazingly valuable on the trade market currently.

 

But then again....once that inefficiency becomes saturated....it's time to jump on the other side of the pendulum...which is what KW can do right now to get someone like an MCab or Crawford. Have our prospects ever been more valuable than now?

 

I agree with the idea of getting MCab....however, we have to probably realize that if by some chance the Marlins were to accept our offer, it would probably be sooner rather than later. They're going to wait out the Angels and Dodgers as long as possible before accepting our offer. As far as the contract, I was hoping something more along the lines of Manny's contract (10/$200m), but I understand your point.

 

 

 

[WCSox]

Taking away the Coors field effect on his batting average last year, I'm not sure how he's that big of an offensive upgrade from Owens. He doesn't solve the "JO doesn't slug at all" problem, he has a couple more years of service time already, he'll probably steal 40 fewer bases than JO in a full season, he missed 1/2 of last season with injuries, and Owens already is taking more walks than him.

 

His defense is obviously an upgrade from JO...but really how much talent can this team afford to give up for a defensive upgrade?

 

My thinking is that Owens could platoon with Taveras in CF and Fields in LF (Fields could also spell Crede at 3B at times in this scenario)... and that Owens would have a chance of being a full-time starter in '09 (with Fields at 3rd). This, of course, assumes that Owens will turn out to be a major-league caliber hitter. I'm optimistic about his chances, but he's far from a lock at this point. If "September Owens" proves to be an anomaly and "July Owens" proves to be the long-term norm, Taveras would be a cheap three-year Plan B.

 

I really don't care about Taveras' inability to drive the ball, as long as his OBP is respectable. I'd love for Kenny to get Rowand or Jones (assuming a reasonable price, which probably won't happen with the latter), but if it's not in the cards right now, we're fine for next year with Thome/Paulie/Dye/Fields/Cabrera/Crede in the middle of the lineup. (That said, Kenny would need to spend on another couple of bats in '09.) For '08, we need a defensive upgrade in CF/LF and another player who can steal bases proficiently would be a big help. And Taveras would do this cheaply for the next few years. Until he does something significant in the minors, Anderson isn't an option and I don't him to become one any time soon.

 

The only problem, as you mentioned, is what it'll take to get Taveras. And I'm not sure that I have an answer for you.

Edited November 28, 2007 by WCSox

[michelangelosmonkey]

Than what happened to those ARod-led Texas Ranger squads?

 

What James says though probably has never been more accurate than it is now. And when you hear KW talk about a "market correction," he isn't talking about the money being paid to the top-tier players. He's talking about the money being paid for absolute mediocrity. Carlos Silva wanting 4/$40. Kyle Lohse wanting 3/$21. I wonder what the difference is in average salary between pre-arbitration eligible players and players who have fulfilled their major league service time. It has to be absolutely astronomical. Now that being the case, is there actually any doubt that it would be better to play kids making the minimum with a few top-tier players mixed-in as opposed to spending $5-10 million per player? The difference in skill level between pre-arbitration eligible players and average major league players is nowhere near the difference in salary. And this is why pre-arb "prospects" are so amazingly valuable on the trade market currently.

 

But then again....once that inefficiency becomes saturated....it's time to jump on the other side of the pendulum...which is what KW can do right now to get someone like an MCab or Crawford. Have our prospects ever been more valuable than now?

 

I agree with the idea of getting MCab....however, we have to probably realize that if by some chance the Marlins were to accept our offer, it would probably be sooner rather than later. They're going to wait out the Angels and Dodgers as long as possible before accepting our offer. As far as the contract, I was hoping something more along the lines of Manny's contract (10/$200m), but I understand your point.

 

 

In fairness to A-rod...these were the five starters in his last season:

John Thomsom

Colby Lewis

Ismael Valdez

Joaquin Benoit

Tony Mounce

Sheesh. remember the year the White Sox were trying Danny Glover and Dan Wright as 5th starters and they were horrible? They could have been the ACE on that Texas staff. One does have to make a credible effort on putting a team behind the star.

 

And your point about the middle talent guys is perfect. And actually why we should take solace in what Kenny is doing. Having a team that consists of a bunch of stars and a bunch of rookies seems the right financial model. Sprinkling Owens, Richar, Fields, Floyd, Danks with room to grow while counting on stars like Buehrle, Vazquez, Thome, Konerko and hopefully Cabrera is a sensible path for a mid to high financial team like the Sox. I think you can win with guys like Garland and Rowand and Crede...but you don't win because of them. They don't carry the team...they make the team a little better. IF you gamble on young guys...every once in a while they burst onto the scene as stars...like Cabrera, like Pujols, like Liriano...and they can carry you. I laugh at people that say Gio can't be an ace...or Fields Each year there are the top 50 prospects and maybe one or two actually burst onto the scene. I think it's partly luck...and it's been a lot of years since the Sox got that lucky. Add Cabrera to the mix, get lucky with Danks...this thing is not hopeless...but it is if we chase after Willie Taveras.

 

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

My thinking is that Owens could platoon with Taveras in CF and Fields in LF (Fields could also spell Crede at 3B at times in this scenario)... and that Owens would have a chance of being a full-time starter in '09 (with Fields at 3rd). This, of course, assumes that Owens will turn out to be a major-league caliber hitter. I'm optimistic about his chances, but he's far from a lock at this point. If "September Owens" proves to be an anomaly and "July Owens" proves to be the long-term norm, Taveras would be a cheap three-year Plan B.

 

I really don't care about Taveras' inability to drive the ball, as long as his OBP is respectable. I'd love for Kenny to get Rowand or Jones (assuming a reasonable price, which probably won't happen with the latter), but if it's not in the cards right now, we're fine for next year with Thome/Paulie/Dye/Fields/Cabrera/Crede in the middle of the lineup. (That said, Kenny would need to spend on another couple of bats in '09.) For '08, we need a defensive upgrade in CF/LF and another player who can steal bases proficiently would be a big help. And Taveras would do this cheaply for the next few years. Until he does something significant in the minors, Anderson isn't an option and I don't him to become one any time soon.

 

The only problem, as you mentioned, is what it'll take to get Taveras. And I'm not sure that I have an answer for you.

I think it's too bad more teams don't try platooning...the old Earl Weaver strategy. But would the Sox do this? I remember this spring when they had...oh who was that DH/1B, 38 year old...historically killed lefties. And Thome who kills righties. Seemed made to order...and we kept Terrero instead.

 

Besides...as I look it up...Taveras and Owens each had fairly similar awefullness historically against lefties.

[iamshack]

I think it's too bad more teams don't try platooning...the old Earl Weaver strategy. But would the Sox do this? I remember this spring when they had...oh who was that DH/1B, 38 year old...historically killed lefties. And Thome who kills righties. Seemed made to order...and we kept Terrero instead.

 

Besides...as I look it up...Taveras and Owens each had fairly similar awefullness historically against lefties.

 

Eduardo Perez.

 

And your comment about us pitching Danny Glover was pretty humorous as well.....it was Gary Glover...

Edited November 28, 2007 by iamshack

[Texsox]

In three or four years the market may be at $12 mil for an average starting CF. The overall MLB average is pushing 3 mil.

Here are your AL CFers, rank them and decide if Rowand at $12 for the next five years isn't realistic basewd on projections and what other guys are signing for.

 

Anderson, Brian N.CFChicago White SoxBaldelli, RoccoCFTampa Bay RaysBorbon, JulioCFTexas RangersByrd, MarlonCFTexas RangersCabrera, MelkyCFNew York YankeesClevlen, BrentCFDetroit TigersCrisp, CocoCFBoston Red SoxDaVanon, JeffCFOakland AthleticsDamon, JohnnyCFNew York YankeesDeJesus, DavidCFKansas City RoyalsDukes, ElijahCFTampa Bay RaysErstad, DarinCFChicago White SoxFiorentino, JeffCFBaltimore OriolesGranderson, CurtisCFDetroit TigersGuzman, FreddyCFTexas RangersHairston, JerryCFTexas RangersHunter, ToriiCFLos Angeles AngelsKotsay, MarkCFOakland AthleticsLofton, KennyCFCleveland IndiansMahar, KevinCFTexas RangersMatthews, GaryCFLos Angeles AngelsMurphy, TommyCFLos Angeles AngelsOwens, JerryCFChicago White SoxPatterson, CoreyCFBaltimore OriolesPutnam, DannyCFOakland AthleticsRedman, TikeCFBaltimore OriolesReed, JeremyCFSeattle MarinersSizemore, GradyCFCleveland IndiansSuzuki, IchiroCFSeattle MarinersSwisher, NickCFOakland AthleticsTerrero, LuisCFChicago White SoxUpton, B.J.CFTampa Bay RaysWells, VernonCFToronto Blue Jays

[WCSox]

In three or four years the market may be at $12 mil for an average starting CF. The overall MLB average is pushing 3 mil.

Here are your AL CFers, rank them and decide if Rowand at $12 for the next five years isn't realistic basewd on projections and what other guys are signing for.

 

Why would Rowand accept 12/60 when Hunter just got a $90 million deal?