NO Trade Clause

[kwill]

Does anyone find it interesting that the no trade clause was such a big deal for mark buehrle but when it came to linebrink they gave him one too. I think its pretty rediculous.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I didn't know that. He has one for the length of the contract ? That's outrageous.

 

I would rather have given Riske that contract instead anyway. I'd also rather the Sox have given Dotel 2 years for $ 12 mil.

[iamshack]

Does anyone find it interesting that the no trade clause was such a big deal for mark buehrle but when it came to linebrink they gave him one too. I think its pretty rediculous.

 

Buehrle's contract will cost the White Sox 3x's the money Linebrink's will.

 

That's why.

[RockRaines]

Does anyone find it interesting that the no trade clause was such a big deal for mark buehrle but when it came to linebrink they gave him one too. I think its pretty rediculous.

Really? And what are the parameters of the no trade clause, please inform us all.

[witesoxfan]

Buehrle is going to be a 5-10 player come like June of 2009; at that point, he will have a full no-trade clause.

[29andPoplar]

I didn't know that. He has one for the length of the contract ? That's outrageous.

 

I would rather have given Riske that contract instead anyway. I'd also rather the Sox have given Dotel 2 years for $ 12 mil.

 

Where did you get that the no trade is for the duration? Or are you just assuming?

 

Dotel wants to close, that won't happen here. Riske ... good year / bad year.

[DBAHO]

Where did you get that the no trade is for the duration? Or are you just assuming?

 

Dotel wants to close, that won't happen here. Riske ... good year / bad year.

And remember when we did have Riske last season, Ozzie didn't use him much at all in the 2nd half of the season. Of course back then, MacDougal and Thornton were pitching quite well (Mac especially).

[CWSGuy406]

Dotel wants to close, that won't happen here. Riske ... good year / bad year.

 

When was Riske's last *bad* year, exactly? 2002?

[29andPoplar]

When was Riske's last *bad* year, exactly? 2002?

 

Did you watch him pitch for the White Sox, did you see how unreliable he was? Maybe you didn't.

 

He is not the guy I would ever give a long term big money contract to, he tends to choke under pressure in my opinion.

[CWSGuy406]

Did you watch him pitch for the White Sox, did you see how unreliable he was? Maybe you didn't.

 

Please, I hope you're not going with the "you must not've watched" argument -- I know you didn't like my cursing in the last thread, but you're better than that. The stats bear out that he was perfectly acceptable as a middle reliever.

 

Being a great middle reliever is kind of a... what's the word I'm looking for here -- paradox? If you were really a GREAT middle reliever, you'd probably be a closer. Obviously there are some exceptions.

 

Anyways... Riske has pitched every inning of his career in an AL uniform. ERA obviously isn't a flawless stat for relievers, but since 2003, he's put up ERAs of 2.29, 3.72, 3.10, 3.89, 3.72, 3.93 and 2.45. He pitched 70+ innings in all of those years, except for 2005 (44 IP) and last season (one more out would've given him 70 IP). Is he great? No -- I'd liken him to Luis Vizcaino in that he's a good guy to have pitching your middle innings but not a guy you want to rely on as a closer or late innings guy (although there are a whole lot guys worse than Riske as a set-up man).

 

If he and Linebrink switched situations the last four years... If Riske was the one pitching in Petco while Linebrink was going up against AL Central and AL East hitters, would people still think Linebrink is the better reliever?

 

And you did say "good year/bad year", and didn't show that he had a "bad" year, so...

Edited November 29, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[29andPoplar]

Please, I hope you're not going with the "you must not've watched" argument -- I know you didn't like my cursing in the last thread, but you're better than that. The stats bear out that he was perfectly acceptable as a middle reliever.

 

Being a great middle reliever is kind of a... what's the word I'm looking for here -- paradox? If you were really a GREAT middle reliever, you'd probably be a closer. Obviously there are some exceptions.

 

Anyways... Riske has pitched every inning of his career in an AL uniform. ERA obviously isn't a flawless stat for relievers, but since 2003, he's put up ERAs of 2.29, 3.72, 3.10, 3.89, 3.72, 3.93 and 2.45. He pitched 70+ innings in all of those years, except for 2005 (44 IP) and last season (one more out would've given him 70 IP). Is he great? No -- I'd liken him to Luis Vizcaino in that he's a good guy to have pitching your middle innings but not a guy you want to rely on.

 

If he and Linebrink switched situations the last four years... If Riske was the one pitching in Petco while Linebrink was going up against AL Central and AL East hitters, would people still think Linebrink is the better reliever?

 

And you did say "good year/bad year", and didn't show that he had a "bad" year, so...

 

Let's see ... he pitched in KC last year. No pressure, he did well.

 

2006, he pitched in Chicago and Boston. Pressure. Not so great, I would even say bad. Now that's just my opinion, so you can throw all the stats around you wish. He didn't get the job done, the job they acquired him to do. Too many implosions.

 

Good year / bad year in my assesment. His declining K numbers send up a red flag to me, in my opinion.

 

He used to be a pretty good strikeout pitcher, he isn't any more. He is not the guy I would give a big long term contract to, in my opinion he isn't worth it.

 

I hope I have made it clear this is all my opinion.

 

As for your first paragraph, I have no idea if you watched or not. I know I did, and that is how I formed my opinion, that's all.

 

[Mr. Showtime]

I'll say it here since I said it in the other thread. I imagine this clause is something where he has control over which teams he would accept a trade to. But, I could be wrong.

[CWSGuy406]

Let's see ... he pitched in KC last year. No pressure, he did well.

 

2006, he pitched in Chicago and Boston. Pressure. Not so great, I would even say bad. Now that's just my opinion, so you can throw all the stats around you wish. He didn't get the job done, the job they acquired him to do. Too many implosions.

 

Good year / bad year in my assesment. His declining K numbers send up a red flag to me, in my opinion.

 

I didn't read the Linebrink thread, but in the interest of being fair, I hope you made this same statement about the reliever we just signed to a four year, $20 million deal.

 

How did he "not get the job done" in 2006? Because you watched and that's what your eyes said? Riske was fine as a middle reliever. Nothing great, nothing terrible. We had MacDougal and Thorton that year to set up Jenks, so Riske slotted in perfectly as a 6th inning type. Anecdotal garb like "I know what I saw" is useless to me.

 

I'm not even saying Riske will be better than Linebrink next year. But I also doubt he's going to get anywhere near $20 million, four years and a NTC guaranteed, either. He'll (probably) get paid what he's worth, not overpaid like the Sox did with Linebrink.

[CWSGuy406]

Also -- what declining K-rate are you talking about? His K/IP the past three years: .67, .64 and .74. Are you looking at a stat sheet or are you just going by your eyes and selective memory here too?

[RockRaines]

Riske is one of those guys who has misleading stats. His stats will get him paid, but you wont see teams like the indians and the white sox bidding for his services for good reason.

[Tuna]

I read about the NTC on the Suntimes website, I got the feeling it was limited but the article wasn't detailed enough to know. I tried finding it again so I could link you guys but it's gone...

[Marky Mark]

NTC confirmed here

 

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/c...-white-sox.html

 

and here

 

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=1021

 

 

However, don't get hung up on No-trade clauses. In reality they're meaningless for the most part. If a team makes it clear to a player that they don't want him anymore and want to trade him the player seems to often oblige to the team's desires most of the time. Not many players like staying in a place where they feel disliked or unwanted by the organization itself.

 

 

Ask Jim Thome.

[29andPoplar]

Also -- what declining K-rate are you talking about? His K/IP the past three years: .67, .64 and .74. Are you looking at a stat sheet or are you just going by your eyes and selective memory here too?

 

He used to strike out more than one guy per inning, he doesn't any more. Good enough for you? Great. Isn't good enough for you? Go find another poster to talk to.

 

Apologies to the mods in advance but this guy has a habit of doing exactly what he's doing in this thread, picking at stuff that was clearly stated as an opinion. Out of frustration or something I guess.

[Gregory Pratt]

NTC confirmed here

 

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/c...-white-sox.html

 

and here

 

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=1021

However, don't get hung up on No-trade clauses. In reality they're meaningless for the most part. If a team makes it clear to a player that they don't want him anymore and want to trade him the player seems to often oblige to the team's desires most of the time. Not many players like staying in a place where they feel disliked or unwanted by the organization itself.

Ask Jim Thome.

 

Thome was asked, "Where would you like to go -- we can't afford you and we've got a younger, cheaper you in Howard." He wasn't kicked out because they didn't want him anymore in the same way that you'd kick out Dimitri Young from Detroit. But yeah, most players will turn them down if it's made clear to them that you aren't wanted anymore.

[scenario]

How did he "not get the job done" in 2006? Because you watched and that's what your eyes said? Riske was fine as a middle reliever. Nothing great, nothing terrible. We had MacDougal and Thorton that year to set up Jenks, so Riske slotted in perfectly as a 6th inning type. Anecdotal garb like "I know what I saw" is useless to me.

 

I agree with 29andPoplar.

 

If you even have to ask that question then you can't have watched the games.

 

And the market very clearly spoke up about Riske's value after the '06 season (in which Cleveland, Boston, and the WhiteSox - three teams that all needed relief help last year - all dumped him)... the only team interested in offering him a deal was the Royals with a 1 year contract.

 

On the other hand, if the Sox hadn't ponied up for Linebrink, there were several other teams that would have made him offers.

 

So please don't delude yourself into thinking these two guys are equal talents.

Edited November 29, 2007 by scenario

[Gene Honda Civic]

I agree with 29andPoplar.

 

If you even have to ask that question then you can't have watched the games.

 

And the market very clearly spoke up about Riske's value after the '06 season (in which Cleveland, Boston, and the WhiteSox - three teams that all needed relief help last year - all dumped him)... the only team interested in offering him a deal was the Royals with a 1 year contract.

 

On the other hand, if the Sox hadn't ponied up for Linebrink, there were several other teams that would have made him offers.

 

So please don't delude yourself into thinking these two guys are equal talents.

I can use this argument....

 

After 2004, the White Sox, Red Sox, Yankees, and Cardinals all needed a second baseman. The Red Sox elected against signing Iguchi, and stuck with their incumbent. The Yankees took the Cards 2B, TONY F'N WOMACK. The Cards took Grudz. The Sox settled on Iguchi (as the only major league bidder) instead of a Harris/Valdez platoon. The prize of the 2B free agent class, Placido Polanco, couldn't get anyone to give him a second look. (He was drafted by the White Sox and Cards, they had to know who he was). The Yanks, Cards, White Sox, and Red Sox were all looking for top of the order hitters to play 2B, and none of them thought Polanco was worth a look.

 

That doesn't mean Polanco is less talented than Tony Womack, or Mark Bellhorn, or Tadahito Iguchi, or Grudzwhathisname. It just means his talent was underappreciated on the market.

 

Don't delude yourself and equate a paycheck with baseball talent.

[scenario]

I can use this argument....

 

After 2004, the White Sox, Red Sox, Yankees, and Cardinals all needed a second baseman. The Red Sox elected against signing Iguchi, and stuck with their incumbent. The Yankees took the Cards 2B, TONY F'N WOMACK. The Cards took Grudz. The Sox settled on Iguchi (as the only major league bidder) instead of a Harris/Valdez platoon. The prize of the 2B free agent class, Placido Polanco, couldn't get anyone to give him a second look. (He was drafted by the White Sox and Cards, they had to know who he was). The Yanks, Cards, White Sox, and Red Sox were all looking for top of the order hitters to play 2B, and none of them thought Polanco was worth a look.

 

That doesn't mean Polanco is less talented than Tony Womack, or Mark Bellhorn, or Tadahito Iguchi, or Grudzwhathisname. It just means his talent was underappreciated on the market.

 

Don't delude yourself and equate a paycheck with baseball talent.

 

And.... what does this have to do with David Riske?

 

Do you really think he is a 'talent' who is underappreciated on the market?

 

Really?

 

If so, I hear he's looking for a new agent. He just fired the last one who was struggling to find him better deals.

 

Maybe that's it... Linebrink just had a much better agent, eh?

Edited November 29, 2007 by scenario

[Gene Honda Civic]

And.... what does this have to do with David Riske?

 

Do you really think he is a 'talent' who is underappreciated on the market?

 

Really?

 

If so, I hear he's looking for a new agent. He just fired the last one who was struggling to find him better deals.

 

Maybe that's it... Linebrink just had a much better agent, eh?

I tried to relate to you in terms you could understand. You seemed to be in agreement that Riske's numbers didn't matter. And that it was his salary, or the number of teams erroneously courting him, which determine his overall effectiveness.

 

I presented a similar case, one where a player got zero interest on the open market despite being arguably best player available at his position, to refute your claim. I see that's a no go as well.

 

Of course Riske is underappreciated. The White Sox didn't see fit to offer him arbitration last year when doing so would have either resulted in 2 extra draft picks or another year of steady middle relief at $2.5MM. The White Sox were stupid, nay retarded, for failing to exploit this scenario.

 

Here's another for instance, using your argument.... Danys Baez signed a ridiculous deal last off-season, while Riske was only able to garner a 1-year deal. Is Baez a better pitcher than Riske? Why?

[CWSGuy406]

He used to strike out more than one guy per inning, he doesn't any more. Good enough for you? Great. Isn't good enough for you? Go find another poster to talk to.

 

You said he had a declining K-rate and the stats show you're wrong. Good enough for you? No, probably not, but please, it'd be greatly appreciated if you'd stop talking out of your ass about certain things. I call things like I see them, and when somebody says "so and so has a declining K-rate" and that's not true at all, I'm going to call it.

 

Apologies to the mods in advance but this guy has a habit of doing exactly what he's doing in this thread, picking at stuff that was clearly stated as an opinion. Out of frustration or something I guess.

 

I've done nothing wrong. Did nothing wrong in the last thread that I 'got into it' with you and have done nothing wrong here. Quit whining and if you can't debate, don't try debating. You've been wrong and all I've done is called you on it, only to have you backtrack or use irrelevant trash.

 

Don't come to a gun-fight with a knife, pal.

[southsideirish]

I also don't recall Riske being good at all with the White Sox in 2006. I don't know how he put up good numbers with the White Sox because I was hodling my breath every single time I saw him come in to pitch. I recall him being mediocre to bad.