More from your "religion of peace".

[jackie hayes]

Im surprised these Islamic thugs aren't out demanding the kids in the class be killed because they have been "tainted" or something lame like that.

 

Yeah, well, you'd be surprised that there's a Muslim alive who disagrees with the idea of killing the teacher. You'd be surprised at a lot of things, Nuke.

 

anyone know how many people have been found guilty of this crime?

 

anyone here (or in the media) actually care before it was a european who broke the law?

 

You care to recite the actual law for us? Because it's damn hard to find this Sudanese criminal code. The charge is something like "insulting religion and inciting hatred". Unless it's a LOT more specific, she DID NOT BREAK THE LAW. Do you refuse to accept that there is an overriding demagogic hatred for the West in certain quarters of Islam?

 

Really, any acceptance of this verdict is just f***ing absurd.

 

An older article on this:

 

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa...icle3204071.ece

 

Ms Gibbons had asked her class to pick a name for their new mascot, a small teddy bear that was dressed in old clothes and was taken home each weekend by a different pupil, who was asked to keep a diary of its activities.

 

Ms Gibbons suggested the name "Faris", which is Arabic for "horseman". In spite of her recommendation, 20 out of the total 23 class members voted in favour of calling the mascot Mohamed –the name of one of the most popular boys in the class.

 

f***ing democracy...

 

I just can't believe anyone is defending a justice system that claims that allowing 7-year olds to call a stuffed animal a particular name is an insult to religion and incites hatred. The suggestion that she was some carefree Western tourist, smugly flouting the laws of her host country...I really start to wonder if you're really liberal, or an arch-conservative's caricature of a liberal.

Edited December 1, 2007 by jackie hayes

[sox4lifeinPA]

It's going to be difficult for this lady to live a normal life after this incident. Her face is plastered all over the news. I don't know how you walk down a street by yourself or visit a grocery store without looking over your shoulder. We've seen prior examples of how Islamic extremists hold grudges.

 

seriously? I couldn't pick this uggo out of a sea of ugly english ladies in london.

[EvilMonkey]

 

seriously? I couldn't pick this uggo out of a sea of ugly english ladies in london.

Maybe you couldn't. but if getting to your 72 virgins depended upon (in your mind) finding her and killing her, I bet you could find her pretty fast.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Ah fundamentalism -- the crazies that will be willing to do just about anything to justify their crazy politcal/religious code that they would like to have in the states.

 

From these crazy fundie Muslims to the fundie Christians who accessorize with dynamite at abortion clinics (and let's not forget the Christian Identity racists who kill people also some stuff like this -- On July 26, 2007, 17 Christians were convicted of religion-inspired terrorism under Indonesian law. A Christian mob attacked, murdered, and beheaded two Muslim fishermen in September 2006, reportedly as retaliation for a previous court ordered and legally sanctioned execution in 2006 of three Christians convicted of leading a militant group which killed hundreds of Muslims in Poso in 2000.[14] In addition to the seventeen Christian defendants found guilty of "acts of terrorism by the use of violence", two defendants received fourteen year sentences for their main roles in the killings, while ten were sentenced to twelve year terms. Five other defendants in separate hearings received eight year sentences for their part in the disposal of the bodies.) There was a time that three of the FBI's top ten most wanted criminals were antiabortion terrorists - Christians, one and all, committing acts of terrorism in an effort to promote their religious beliefs. Why have they dropped off the radar?

 

Fundamentalists of all religious stripes will utilize their religion to justify violent acts that they want to perpetrate. It does us no favors to pick out only one sect's fundamentalists but rather to look at them as an entire whole -- that all fundamentalism with a perverted thirst for political power to institute their moral code is a danger to a free, open, rational, reason-based pluralistic society that we have in the United States.

[vandy125]

Fundamentalists of all religious stripes will utilize their religion to justify violent acts that they want to perpetrate. It does us no favors to pick out only one sect's fundamentalists but rather to look at them as an entire whole -- that all fundamentalism with a perverted thirst for political power to institute their moral code is a danger to a free, open, rational, reason-based pluralistic society that we have in the United States.

I think that the key is actually the perverted thirst for political power. That is the common denominator, not the religion. You will find religous and non-religious people finding ways to justify their actions that are actually driven by this perversion (many times the religious view is just a facade). If they truly had a healthy outlook and could remove their own perverted desires from the picture, they would be able to see what actions are completely wrong.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Why have they dropped off the radar?

 

because that was 1 group of 10 people? not hundreds of groups of thousands of people?

[LowerCaseRepublican]

because that was 1 group of 10 people? not hundreds of groups of thousands of people?

The Army of God, the Christian Identity movement, the Aryans, the American Nazi Party, the KKK, the National Alliance and other racist organizations that attempt to attach their bulls*** racist ideologies to a "Christian" veneer.

 

There's fundies who use religion as a means of gaining political power solely for the use of political power.

 

Chris Hedges, a Christian war correspondent, recently wrote a fantastic book on the subject of American dominionists using religion as a means to gain political power using the Christian religion as its focal point inside America -- rather than the Muslim handwringing that gets so much political/news play. (I am not trying to tone down or dismiss the fact there are Muslim fundies -- their treatment of women with forced circumcisions, the morality police in countries that enforce sharia (i.e. the execution of an underage girl in Iran which was turned into a really interesting documentary that has aired repeatedly in American TV), et al.) I am however, trying to say that the greatest minds of the 14th Century in all religions do us no favors to promote our reason based society that we have because their position is not based on reason.

[sox4lifeinPA]

The Army of God, the Christian Identity movement, the Aryans, the American Nazi Party, the KKK, the National Alliance and other racist organizations that attempt to attach their bulls*** racist ideologies to a "Christian" veneer.

 

There's fundies who use religion as a means of gaining political power solely for the use of political power.

 

Chris Hedges, a Christian war correspondent, recently wrote a fantastic book on the subject of American dominionists using religion as a means to gain political power using the Christian religion as its focal point inside America -- rather than the Muslim handwringing that gets so much political/news play. (I am not trying to tone down or dismiss the fact there are Muslim fundies -- their treatment of women with forced circumcisions, the morality police in countries that enforce sharia (i.e. the execution of an underage girl in Iran which was turned into a really interesting documentary that has aired repeatedly in American TV), et al.) I am however, trying to say that the greatest minds of the 14th Century in all religions do us no favors to promote our reason based society that we have because their position is not based on reason.

 

we're on the same page, for the record. I think religion creates some of the craziest mfing wackos out there...but I think for speculation's purposes how many Christians do you think consider those wackos to be wackos versus Muslims who consider their wackos...wackos? rather than, let's say "people who might be justified in their actions".

 

my conjecture would be landslide towards one side over the other...and the title of this thread says it all.

[mr_genius]

Ah fundamentalism -- the crazies that will be willing to do just about anything to justify their crazy politcal/religious code that they would like to have in the states.

 

From these crazy fundie Muslims to the fundie Christians who accessorize with dynamite at abortion clinics (and let's not forget the Christian Identity racists who kill people also some stuff like this -- On July 26, 2007, 17 Christians were convicted of religion-inspired terrorism under Indonesian law. A Christian mob attacked, murdered, and beheaded two Muslim fishermen in September 2006, reportedly as retaliation for a previous court ordered and legally sanctioned execution in 2006 of three Christians convicted of leading a militant group which killed hundreds of Muslims in Poso in 2000.[14] In addition to the seventeen Christian defendants found guilty of "acts of terrorism by the use of violence", two defendants received fourteen year sentences for their main roles in the killings, while ten were sentenced to twelve year terms. Five other defendants in separate hearings received eight year sentences for their part in the disposal of the bodies.) There was a time that three of the FBI's top ten most wanted criminals were antiabortion terrorists - Christians, one and all, committing acts of terrorism in an effort to promote their religious beliefs. Why have they dropped off the radar?

 

Fundamentalists of all religious stripes will utilize their religion to justify violent acts that they want to perpetrate. It does us no favors to pick out only one sect's fundamentalists but rather to look at them as an entire whole -- that all fundamentalism with a perverted thirst for political power to institute their moral code is a danger to a free, open, rational, reason-based pluralistic society that we have in the United States.

 

of course, instead of commenting on the actual situation, you change the subject and give a Rosie O'donnell like rant.

 

i don't like religious crazies of any religion either, but i also don't like authoritarian socialists. so should we start comparing these psychos to the far lefties in this country? because there sure are similarities.

Edited December 1, 2007 by mr_genius

[LowerCaseRepublican]

of course, instead of commenting on the actual situation, you change the subject and give a Rosie O'donnell like rant.

 

i don't like religious crazies of any religion either, but i also don't like authoritarian socialists. so should we start comparing these psychos to the far lefties in this country? because there sure are similarities.

Pardon me for not (and no pun intended) preaching to the choir here about "OMG! THE MOOZLIMS ARE BACKWARDS!!111!! ELEVENTY!"

 

I was making a much more valuable and cogent point about the dangers of fundamentalism.

 

And as for your comment re: authoritarian socialists, yeah -- it is okay to be worried about them. However, the Christian "fascists" (as Chris Hedges succinctly put it) are much more dangerous and have much great access and use of power inside the United States. By that fact, they should deserve more of your fear than the "socialists".

[mr_genius]

Pardon me for not (and no pun intended) preaching to the choir here about "OMG! THE MOOZLIMS ARE BACKWARDS!!111!! ELEVENTY!"

 

I was making a much more valuable and cogent point about the dangers of fundamentalism.

 

And as for your comment re: authoritarian socialists, yeah -- it is okay to be worried about them. However, the Christian "fascists" (as Chris Hedges succinctly put it) are much more dangerous and have much great access and use of power inside the United States. By that fact, they should deserve more of your fear than the "socialists".

 

ok Rosie

[LowerCaseRepublican]

ok Rosie

Trolling is even beneath you. But nice try.

 

But to make you feel important, I got you this nice picture.

 

[mr_genius]

Trolling is even beneath you. But nice try.

 

But to make you feel important, I got you this nice picture.

 

 

buddy, you have to be kidding. this thread was 1 post away form you accusing everyone who disagrees with you as being "Hitler". i thought i was doing you a favor just ending the thread with a little joke before you went off the deep end as usual.

[NorthSideSox72]

I am going to re-open the thread for a bit, since the issue has come to a resolution of sorts - Gibbons was pardoned, and is now on a flight back home to the UK. The President of Sudan pardoned her, with the support of others in the government.

 

So after all that bluster, in a country of millions... a few hundred people protested, and a few of those were calling for executions. And ultimately, Gibbons has nothing but good things to say of the Sudanese, and it seems most of the country took no issue with the situation. This really appears to have been, again, a loud minority trying using religion as a tool for their own hatred.

 

Glad to see she is going home safe.

 

ETA: Let's try to keep the discussions civil this time.

 

[EvilMonkey]

So after all that bluster, in a country of millions... a few hundred people protested, and a few of those were calling for executions.

A few hundred!

The Liverpool mum of two - convicted of insulting Islam by calling the bear Mohammed - is being held at a secret location after a10,000-strong mob took to Sudan's streets screaming: "Kill her, kill her."

And that was just in that city.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Alpha Dog

[NorthSideSox72]

A few hundred!

And that was just in that city.

I don't know where you got that sentence, but, the major news sources like CNN had it in the hundreds.

 

[jackie hayes]

I am going to re-open the thread for a bit, since the issue has come to a resolution of sorts - Gibbons was pardoned, and is now on a flight back home to the UK. The President of Sudan pardoned her, with the support of others in the government.

 

So after all that bluster, in a country of millions... a few hundred people protested, and a few of those were calling for executions. And ultimately, Gibbons has nothing but good things to say of the Sudanese, and it seems most of the country took no issue with the situation. This really appears to have been, again, a loud minority trying using religion as a tool for their own hatred.

 

Glad to see she is going home safe.

 

ETA: Let's try to keep the discussions civil this time.

I believe it is a minority, but nothing suggests it's a tiny one, nor powerless. To get thousands out for a cause as idiotic as this says something.

[jackie hayes]

Meet halfway. "Some news agencies reported thousands of people took part in the protest, but a BBC reporter at the scene said up to a thousand marchers turned out."

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7121025.stm

[NorthSideSox72]

I believe it is a minority, but nothing suggests it's a tiny one, nor powerless. To get thousands out for a cause as idiotic as this says something.

I did not say tiny or powerless, nor would I.

 

[jackie hayes]

I did not say tiny or powerless, nor would I.

Fine. But you said,

The President of Sudan pardoned her, with the support of others in the government.

That at least suggests that these extremists don't have the ear of the government. But the protests couldn't have happened without the government's assent. Some good speculation on the government's role and intent from a BBC corresp:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7125514.stm

 

You then said,

So after all that bluster, in a country of millions... a few hundred people protested, and a few of those were calling for executions.

I'm sorry, but clearly the idea is that, out of "millions", only "a few" of "a few hundred" are extremist. Maybe you have a very specific definition of the percentage needed to qualify for tinyness. If so, profound apologies.

[EvilMonkey]

I don't know where you got that sentence, but, the major news sources like CNN had it in the hundreds.

From Mr. Genius's post on page 2

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article531449.ece

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Fine. But you said,

 

That at least suggests that these extremists don't have the ear of the government. But the protests couldn't have happened without the government's assent. Some good speculation on the government's role and intent from a BBC corresp:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7125514.stm

 

You then said,

 

I'm sorry, but clearly the idea is that, out of "millions", only "a few" of "a few hundred" are extremist. Maybe you have a very specific definition of the percentage needed to qualify for tinyness. If so, profound apologies.

CNN says a few hundred. Another source says thousands. Another says a thousand. Whatever. Point is, its not millions of Sudanese all agreeing this woman should be stoned in the streets. Its a minority, albeit one that is growing in strength (as I've said many times before). My response, as I think was pretty obvious, was to the repeated and insistent (and dangerous) charge I see here from certain folks that these extremists are the mainstream of Islam. And I simply do not see that as true.

 

[Balta1701]

And I simply do not see that as true.

And IMO, the biggest problem with thinking that its representative of all of Islam is that it winds up being a self-fullfilling prophecy. Because people determine that it's representative, they decide that they're all hostile to us, and so it's not worth doing anything to try to improve that or listening to any concerns of those people. And the next thing you know, bombs and bullets are flying and more and more people are radicalized.

[NorthSideSox72]

And IMO, the biggest problem with thinking that its representative of all of Islam is that it winds up being a self-fullfilling prophecy. Because people determine that it's representative, they decide that they're all hostile to us, and so it's not worth doing anything to try to improve that or listening to any concerns of those people. And the next thing you know, bombs and bullets are flying and more and more people are radicalized.

That's why I added the "dangerous" part.

 

Also, on the other side of the lens, folks should keep in mind that the modern media's tendency towards sensationalism means that we will see the extremes in everything more often. And when that's all we see from certain parts of the world, its just too easy to assume that is all there is.

 

If you've travelled overseas, particularly outside the "western" world, you've probably been asked questions that make this clear. When I say I am from Chicago, people in places like India and Haiti tend to bring up Michael Jordan and Al Capone. When they know I'm American, they ask me if we all carry guns. It works both ways.

[sox4lifeinPA]

did anyone stop and ask the bear whether it LIKED its name or not?

 

 

I have decided to withold my judgement until he speaks!