Do we need a philosophical change?

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I give Kenny props for this. I don't blame Kenny for the Fla.- Detroit deal. Willis isn't going to be succesful in the AL and I don't doubt what Ozzie said.

 

Even if Fla. took Kenny's offer for Cabrera, the Sox would not have competed for the division title this year and it would've killed the team long term. I'm glad they didn't do the deal.

 

What bothers me about Kenny is that he refused to admit this year that this team needs a rebuilding and that the 2007 Sox were nowhere close to being a championship caliber team and a couple of trades and signings were not going to change that. He seemed to have forgotten/ignored that 10 years of wasted draft picks have now come around to kill this franchise. Rebuilding is the only way.

 

Maybe, he'll start now and stop wasting more money to finish in in the same spot. I doubt it. Be happy with 2005. I am.

[bschmaranz]

I don't believe what Cowley said (was listening to that too). Don't think the Sox were as close as the media is saying. They're just trying to throw a little more gasoline on the fire, make Kenny and Ozzie look bad and they've got more to talk about.

[CWSGuy406]

There is plenty to be upset about. But, I agree with your overall point. Some of this THE TEAM IS SCREWED FOR 10 YEARS!!!!!!!!!! crap is pretty laughable.

 

I just hope you don't get run down by the runaway panic-and-doom train because of your post.

 

Who is saying ten years? All I know is...

 

- We're a $100 million dollar payroll team that has a ways to go to leap into SECOND place in the division, much less first place.

 

- We're certainly the cheapest $100 million dollar payroll team. We cut out a great portion of available talent (through the draft, through free agency) only because of Scott Boras.

 

- We have no young position-player talent in AA or AAA. None. We're completely bereft (Godspeed, Ryan Sweeney...). This doesn't look to get a whole lot better when (a) the Sox won't get the BEST AVAILABLE TALENT at eight overall as that player has a pretty good chance of being a Boras client and ( b ) the Sox feel the need to piss away more draft picks through crap-ass signings like Linebrink and maybe even Rowand.

[iamshack]

Well a few years ago, the Marlins couldn't find a guy to pick up Lowell and his contract to aquire this Beckett fellow. The redsox decided to take a gamble. He rebounded pretty well. Plus if they really didnt want Willis, Kenny could of turned around and spun him for something else. He is left handed, young so teams will be interested.

 

Joe Cowley spins what the sox give him to spin. All I know is facing that lineup 19 times a year will be destructive.

.

 

Bruce Levine reported the exact same thing.

 

As for Dontrelle, what the hell sort of logic is it to say that because Mike Lowell hits well in Boston, Dontrelle will pitch well again? That's nonsensical.

[southsideirish71]

Bruce Levine reported the exact same thing.

 

As for Dontrelle, what the hell sort of logic is it to say that because Mike Lowell hits well in Boston, Dontrelle will pitch well again? That's nonsensical.

 

Saying that Dontrelle who had a bad season is done as a pitcher is nonsensical as well. Do you realize that young left handed pitchers who have had success in the NL might attract an offer or 2.

Edited December 5, 2007 by southsideirish71

[WHITESOXRANDY]

The biggest problem with this thinking, if true, is that even if Hunter took the Sox money and if the Sox got Cabrera for Fields, Gio, Danks etc. they still wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

 

The pitching isn't good enough as it is - the rotation or the bullpen and that's before unloading Gio and Danks.

 

BOTTOM LINE: Kenny thinking that the Sox had a good chance to win this year was a joke. If his judgement is that bad maybe it's time for new blood.

Edited December 5, 2007 by WHITESOXRANDY

[rockren]

Saying that Dontrelle who had a bad season is done as a pitcher is nonsensical as well. Do you realize that left handed pitchers who have had success in the NL might attract an offer or 2.

 

Eh I think Dontrelle is done as a starter myself. I really like Dontrelle, but his off-speed (his slider) has gone to hell because he's had arm problems.

 

I see D-Train being lightning in a bottle until about May 15th.....then AL teams will have a couple looks at his freaked up wind-up and teams will hit him.

 

I watched D-Train late last year and he was throwing like 86.

[iamshack]

Saying that Dontrelle who had a bad season is done as a pitcher is nonsensical as well. Do you realize that young left handed pitchers who have had success in the NL might attract an offer or 2.

 

I'm not saying he is done. I'm saying your logic for saying he is not done is nonsensical.

[Hatchetman]

No props to KW. He promised a wii and delivered a hand-knit linebrink sweater.

[NorthSideSox72]

Who is saying ten years? All I know is...

 

Someone last night actually said it was time to bring in Hahn right now, or else the Sox are screwed for 10 years. I joke not. Someone actually said that.

 

- We're a $100 million dollar payroll team that has a ways to go to leap into SECOND place in the division, much less first place.

I agree 100% with you here. At best, I think the Sox could MAYBE get up to sort of near 2nd place in terms of talent, if they do well with CF and add a solid starter. You'll note that I said, specifically, that there is plenty to be upset about.

 

- We're certainly the cheapest $100 million dollar payroll team. We cut out a great portion of available talent (through the draft, through free agency) only because of Scott Boras.

I have no idea what the bolded above could possibly mean. You lost me there. As for Boras, KW specifically said that isn't a factor, and from what I've seen, he just puts Hahn out there to deal with him. Of all the issues the Sox have, dealing with Boras is just not high on the list.

 

- We have no young position-player talent in AA or AAA. None. We're completely bereft (Godspeed, Ryan Sweeney...). This doesn't look to get a whole lot better when (a) the Sox won't get the BEST AVAILABLE TALENT at eight overall as that player has a pretty good chance of being a Boras client and ( b ) the Sox feel the need to piss away more draft picks through crap-ass signings like Linebrink and maybe even Rowand.

I certainly wouldn't argue that the Sox farm system isn't nearly bereft of position player talent. Completely is of course an overstatement. Every system has a few guys who could be solid players. And that thin talent pool, by the way, is MY biggest criticism of KW. Since becoming GM in 2000 (after, by the way, being director of player DEVELOPMENT), he and his designates have allowed the system to downright crumble. Fortunately, its clear the last few months he's making major changes in that way. A little late, but better than never.

 

I don't agree the Sox won't get the best talent. There is just no way that statement makes sense - we don't even know what players will be available.

 

Linebrink improves the bullpen significantly. They probably overpaid a bit. That does not make it a crap-ass signing. Rowand? We'll see.

[Soxfest]

"You try to do things that make sense and you can afford," Williams said. "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

 

Anyone else tired of this, these are the same comments he made since day 1, he said if people showed up he could do more. Attendance has been awesome last 2 years and ticket prices have raised both years but yet no big free agent signing or big trade deadline deal it is the same old BS from KW. KW says every year we have extra payroll to get the difference maker at trade deadline but never has, on free agents the same old we tried we really did. White Sox recieved 25 million in 2007 for MLB licensing products alone this does not count any other revenue such as TV/Radio or ticket sales or revenue sharing so do not give me and other diehard fans we have no revenue BS. I love the Sox but the excuses year after year about revenue is really old.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Soxfest

[chunk23]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlin...=7&cxcat=46

 

The White Sox early Tuesday thought they had a shot at getting Cabrera, with manager Ozzie Guillen lobbying owner Jerry Reinsdorf to make the trade. But the Sox bowed out when Florida demanded that Willis be included in the deal, too, sources said. Chicago already has a surplus of left-handed pitchers.

 

 

So both sides of this agree on Willis being required. I really do think the Tigers overpaid. Between the trade for Renteria and this one, they have no farm

[NorthSideSox72]

We don't need 4 threads covering the exact same topic. I've merged these 4 threads into here. This is now the KW commentary thread. Enjoy.

 

[elrockinMT]

What would you have done to get Miggy Cabrera instead?

 

Would you give up DLS, Gio, Fields, Danks and Floyd for him?

 

 

Maybe our system just doesn't have the horses to trade a lot of prospects. Willis is an intriguing pitcher, but has been slipping the last couple years. He will be a 4th or 5th staretr for Detroit, but Cabrera will be awesome. The Marlins get a lot of young, but unproven talent. I guess we just couldn't muster enough, or maybe didn't want to give up as much.

[Chombi]

Out of curiosity, if MCab went to a team other than a division rival, would anybody here really care? We knew the Sox didn't have the players to land him, and even if they did, there was a question of how they would fill the holes in their roster. I'm pissed too, but if the Angels got him would be people saying, "good thing we didn't blow up the roster for one guy."?

I do agree though that this should be a turning point in the mind set of the front office because this team won't be competitive in this division next year. Unfortunately they've started down the "win now" path and probably can't reverse based on the contract extensions they gave out.

 

I'd be easier to swallow for one. Depending on what other team it was too.

 

The division is the biggest no-no. Seeing him 19 times a year for potentially until he retires sucks. If anyone would've nabbed him in our division it would've hurt. The Tigers I think the most though because they have proven a willingness to spend, and they have put together a good team already.

 

The Red Sox it'd suck but at least we coud still potentially make the playoffs over his tenure.

 

The Yanks, they'd still have pitching concerns and have already had the best offense for years so that wouldn't have bothered me.

 

Angels, same thing as the Sawx.

 

NL wouldn't bother me at all.

[CWSGuy406]

I have no idea what the bolded above could possibly mean. You lost me there. As for Boras, KW specifically said that isn't a factor, and from what I've seen, he just puts Hahn out there to deal with him. Of all the issues the Sox have, dealing with Boras is just not high on the list.

 

Of course it's a factor. I don't know how you could possibly say that. It was a factor in June -- if it wasn't a factor, we'd have Rick Porcello right now instead of Aaron Poreda. If it wasn't a factor, we'd be talking more about Andruw Jones. It's without a doubt a huge factor. They're cheap in their international signings, too -- what's the biggest bonus we've given to an international signing from Latin America? 500K? For a team that cries poor in the free agent market, the best -- and speaking long-term, most inexpensive yet effective -- way of getting talent is through the draft and through the signings in Latin America. The Sox don't spend on the draft and even worse, they refuse to take advantage of the 'loophole' of getting more picks by offering arbitration to players (see: Riske, David and I'd guess in the next couple months Cabrera, Orlando, as all signs point to the Sox trying to re-up with yet ANOTHER mid-30s player rather than take the two picks that would come from his departure).

 

I certainly wouldn't argue that the Sox farm system isn't nearly bereft of position player talent. Completely is of course an overstatement. Every system has a few guys who could be solid players. And that thin talent pool, by the way, is MY biggest criticism of KW.

 

Did you read what I said? I said in AA and AAA, the Sox are completely bereft of position player talent. And that's true. Who in AA or AAA projects to be a starter? Maybe Ryan Sweeney if he bounces back. Anyone else? I'm not seeing anyone there. Getz projects as a back-up infielder. And please, there's no need to bring up Donny Lucy -- he'll be lucky to cut it as a backup catcher.

 

I don't agree the Sox won't get the best talent. There is just no way that statement makes sense - we don't even know what players will be available.

 

What? I can't be reading this -- seriously? The Sox didn't get the best talent last June -- there's not a knowledgable scout on this earth who would tell you Porcello is less talented than Poreda. You're right in that I can't be sure that the best available talent at eight will be a Boras client, but I gaurantee you that if he is, we won't be taking that player.

 

Linebrink improves the bullpen significantly. They probably overpaid a bit. That does not make it a crap-ass signing.

 

Sure it does. Linebrink improves the bullpen of a fourth place team significantly. And he has a no-trade clause -- something the Sox apparently like to hand out like candy nowadays -- so if he's solid for the first year-and-a-half, it'll be tougher to flip him for a similar haul that San Diego got. And it cost us a top 75 pick. Oh yeah, and there's that whole thing about his K-rate dropping each of the past couple seasons.

Edited December 5, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[NorthSideSox72]

Of course it's a factor. I don't know how you could possibly say that. It was a factor in June -- if it wasn't a factor, we'd have Rick Porcello right now instead of Aaron Poreda. If it wasn't a factor, we'd be talking more about Andruw Jones. It's without a doubt a huge factor. They're cheap in their international signings, too -- what's the biggest bonus we've given to an international signing from Latin America? 500K? For a team that cries poor in the free agent market, the best -- and speaking long-term, most inexpensive yet effective -- way of getting talent is through the draft and through the signings in Latin America. The Sox don't spend on the draft and even worse, they refuse to take advantage of the 'loophole' of getting more picks by offering arbitration to players (see: Riske, David and I'd guess in the next couple months Cabrera, Orlando, as all signs point to the Sox trying to re-up with yet ANOTHER mid-30s player rather than take the two picks that would come from his departure).

 

You sure do like to take everything to the extreme, don't you? Not everyone believes its either a non-factor, or a major factor. Read what I posted. It says "Of all the issues the Sox have, dealing with Boras is just not high on the list". KW was the one who said he wasn't a factor, not me. How is that not clear?

 

Did you read what I said? I said in AA and AAA, the Sox are completely bereft of position player talent. And that's true. Who in AA or AAA projects to be a starter? Maybe Ryan Sweeney if he bounces back. Anyone else? I'm not seeing anyone there. Getz projects as a back-up infielder. And please, there's no need to bring up Donny Lucy -- he'll be lucky to cut it as a backup catcher.

 

I read it, and disagreed. Again, you want everything to be an extreme. You want to say that AA and AAA are completely bereft - your words - of position player talent. That is of course not the case. Sweeney has a shot at being a starter, Getz and Bourgeois seem like competent future backups, Anderson may still be a starter, and as for Lucy, I think he's most likely backup material. Reality is not so black and white as you make it.

 

What? I can't be reading this -- seriously? The Sox didn't get the best talent last June -- there's not a knowledgable scout on this earth who would tell you Porcello is less talented than Poreda. You're right in that I can't be sure that the best available talent at eight will be a Boras client, but I gaurantee you that if he is, we won't be taking that player.

 

You are reading it, and I said it. Did I say anything whatsoever about last June? Because it appears you are convinced the Sox will just keeping making bad picks. Has it come to your attention that the entire staff of talent evaluation and development folks has been overhauled this offseason? Does that mean anything to you?

 

Sure it does. Linebrink improves the bullpen of a fourth place team significantly. And he has a no-trade clause -- something the Sox apparently like to hand out like candy nowadays -- so if he's solid for the first year-and-a-half, it'll be tougher to flip him for a similar haul that San Diego got. And it cost us a top 75 pick. Oh yeah, and there's that whole thing about his K-rate dropping each of the past couple seasons.

Linebrink's K/9 rate with MIL in 2007 of 8.88 was the highest he's had in 4 years, and only .01 below his career high of 8.89. Look it up.

 

And I specifically said, the Sox overpaid a bit - that includes the 4th year, and the NTC.

 

[juddling]

in the Sun-Times De Luca mentions the Marlins were looking for a catching prospect which the Sox didn't have to offer. They were waiting for a counteroffer from the Marlins when the quick deal was announced.

 

If that is how it happened, if you like KW or not....there wasn't much he could do. He's sitting in his room waiting for a call back when he hears about the deal. You can't make the other teams deal with you.

 

IIRC, i read somewhere that the Sox and Hunter all but signed a deal when Hunter flew out to keep his meeting with the Angels. then...BAM...the deal is done. Again....what could KW do???? he's makes an offer..if Hunter or Cabrera came back to KW and said 'Hey..this is what i was offered by Detroit. Want to beat this??" and the Sox declined then that would be one thing but i think twice now KW thought he had a deal all but done then Poof it was gone.

 

 

[fathom]

in the Sun-Times De Luca mentions the Marlins were looking for a catching prospect which the Sox didn't have to offer. They were waiting for a counteroffer from the Marlins when the quick deal was announced.

 

If that is how it happened, if you like KW or not....there wasn't much he could do. He's sitting in his room waiting for a call back when he hears about the deal. You can't make the other teams deal with you.

 

IIRC, i read somewhere that the Sox and Hunter all but signed a deal when Hunter flew out to keep his meeting with the Angels. then...BAM...the deal is done. Again....what could KW do???? he's makes an offer..if Hunter or Cabrera came back to KW and said 'Hey..this is what i was offered by Detroit. Want to beat this??" and the Sox declined then that would be one thing but i think twice now KW thought he had a deal all but done then Poof it was gone.

 

Sure there's stuff he could have done. It's not like Rubelo is a big prospect. He could have traded Crede for a catching prospect. Of course, we would have had a lot more to trade with if not for the stupid, in hindsight, Garland for a one year SS when we already have Uribe on the books.

[juddling]

Sure there's stuff he could have done. It's not like Rubelo is a big prospect. He could have traded Crede for a catching prospect. Of course, we would have had a lot more to trade with if not for the stupid, in hindsight, Garland for a one year SS when we already have Uribe on the books.

 

 

"in hindsight" being the key phrase

[Gene Honda Civic]

Sure there's stuff he could have done. It's not like Rubelo is a big prospect. He could have traded Crede for a catching prospect. Of course, we would have had a lot more to trade with if not for the stupid, in hindsight, Garland for a one year SS when we already have Uribe on the books.

Or, you know, we could have drafted one in 2004...

[witesoxfan]

in the Sun-Times De Luca mentions the Marlins were looking for a catching prospect which the Sox didn't have to offer. They were waiting for a counteroffer from the Marlins when the quick deal was announced.

 

If that is how it happened, if you like KW or not....there wasn't much he could do. He's sitting in his room waiting for a call back when he hears about the deal. You can't make the other teams deal with you.

 

IIRC, i read somewhere that the Sox and Hunter all but signed a deal when Hunter flew out to keep his meeting with the Angels. then...BAM...the deal is done. Again....what could KW do???? he's makes an offer..if Hunter or Cabrera came back to KW and said 'Hey..this is what i was offered by Detroit. Want to beat this??" and the Sox declined then that would be one thing but i think twice now KW thought he had a deal all but done then Poof it was gone.

 

Mike Rabelo is 27 and put up an OPS of .657 last year. His line - .256/.300/.357 - looks very similar to something that Donny Lucy would put up.

[CWSGuy406]

You sure do like to take everything to the extreme, don't you? Not everyone believes its either a non-factor, or a major factor. Read what I posted. It says "Of all the issues the Sox have, dealing with Boras is just not high on the list". KW was the one who said he wasn't a factor, not me. How is that not clear?

 

KW may have said it wasn't a factor but the proof is in the pudding. You taking what he says at face value is what isn't clear.

 

I read it, and disagreed. Again, you want everything to be an extreme. You want to say that AA and AAA are completely bereft - your words - of position player talent. That is of course not the case. Sweeney has a shot at being a starter, Getz and Bourgeois seem like competent future backups, Anderson may still be a starter, and as for Lucy, I think he's most likely backup material. Reality is not so black and white as you make it.

 

Slight overexaggeration on my part, yes. I don't really care for backups -- bad organizations churn out backup players with ease, that's not particularly difficult to accomplish. That doesn't say a lot about the Sox farm system. I stand by my statement that the Sox AA and AAA levels are bereft of position-player talent, with a change in wording from "completely" to "mostly".

 

You are reading it, and I said it. Did I say anything whatsoever about last June? Because it appears you are convinced the Sox will just keeping making bad picks. Has it come to your attention that the entire staff of talent evaluation and development folks has been overhauled this offseason? Does that mean anything to you?

 

What does changing the scouts have to do with avoiding Boras clients in the draft? You said: "I don't agree the Sox won't get the best talent." And I said that if the best talent at eight happened to be a Boras client, the Sox wouldn't end up with that player because they're not going to deal with Boras. What, just because we changed some scouts means next summer we'll deal with Boras? I'll certainly eat crow if that happens, but that decision doesn't have a whole lot to do with the scouts -- that decision, I'd imagine, is coming from someone above Kenny or Kenny himself.

 

Linebrink's K/9 rate with MIL in 2007 of 8.88 was the highest he's had in 4 years, and only .01 below his career high of 8.89. Look it up.

 

Oh you mean the K/9 he had in all 25 innings with Milwaukee? Really? Pray tell, why didn't you include the 45 innings he pitched in 2007 with San Diego?

 

Me? I'll go with the four-year trend rather than the 25 innings.

Edited December 5, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[whitesoxfan101]

getting rid of Kenny Williams, and when will be a better time than now? At minimum, we have no shot at going to the playoffs for 2 years, perhaps 3 or 4 is more accurate, and things need to be blown up. The biggest problem with this is you can't "blow it up" without having assets to trade, and we have very little that anybody would want. Regardless of what we do, it's clear this team will be a 4th place team for the forseeable future, and I just wish we'd get a GM who will do something other than whine about the free agent market and give players in their 30's who have shown they are washed up contracts extensions. Can we please just hire an adequate GM Jerry Reinsdorf??

[NorthSideSox72]

getting rid of Kenny Williams, and when will be a better time than now? At minimum, we have no shot at going to the playoffs for 2 years, perhaps 3 or 4 is more accurate, and things need to be blown up. The biggest problem with this is you can't "blow it up" without having assets to trade, and we have very little that anybody would want. Regardless of what we do, it's clear this team will be a 4th place team for the forseeable future, and I just wish we'd get a GM who will do something other than whine about the free agent market and give players in their 30's who have shown they are washed up contracts extensions. Can we please just hire an adequate GM Jerry Reinsdorf??

 

Thanks for the laughs. No shot, in early December.

 

3 or 4 years. Ha! Like we even know yet what this team will look like on Opening Day THIS year.