Do we need a philosophical change?

[NorthSideSox72]

Does a world series team seem like one who had pitchers put up ERA's of 4.48, 4.54, 4.78, and 7.15, who's leadoff hitter put up a .314 OBP, and who's LF hit .199 the year before?

 

The guys I just gave you were Robertson, Bonderman, Maroth, Verlander, Granderson, and Thames in 2005.

 

Sure, it might be a bit unfair saying that Justin Verlander was going to fail in 2006 based on the 7.15 ERA he put up in 11 innings in 2005, but I don't see how that's any more unfair than what you just did with the rookie seasons of Richar, Quentin, Danks, and to a lesser extent Floyd.

Balta, of all the posts positive and negative the last few days, this is the only one that has made me feel a little better about the team's possibilities. Thank you sir.

 

[J-MAN]

Chombi,

 

Are you still alive? After that note I assumed you jumped out a window.

 

I've been a Whitesox fan since 1990. My favorite all time players are Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Jason Bere. Yes, Jason Bere. In fact I still have like 50 of his rookie cards.

 

Every year, no matter what happens in the offseason, I get pumped about the Whitesox. PUMPED. I go nuts in March waiting for the season to start. And every year in the past 17, except for one, the season ends up a disappointment because we didn't win it all. We had the best team in baseball in 1993 before the strike. I remember seeing all four games in Seattle and we swept them all. Ron Karkovice won one game with a homer off Randy Johnson. The fourth game of the series I had tickets behind the Mariners dugout. Between innings that Mariner Moose got on top of the Mariners dugout and pointed at my Whitesox hat and everyone started booing. Then he took it off my head and turned it inside out to the crowd cheering.

 

I've been through the 16 disappointing season in the past 17 years. But so have fans of 28 other teams. Every year anything can happen. The Tigers made it to World Series in 2006 after like 20 years of sub .500 ball. The Cardinals won it all that year with like 84 regular season wins.

 

You can complain and rant all you want, and there is probably a 99% chance you are right. But I'll take my 1% chance over your 99% any day of the week.

 

AMEN! I second that and go back even further - I go back to the 1959 CWS !

 

 

 

[elrockinMT]

Without starting a new thread...I'm just kind of curious what people would have done different since October of '05 differently?

 

Should we have held on to El Duque?

Kept Rowand?

Dealt Freddy after '05.

 

I think in hindsight...maybe one of the smarter moves would have been dealing Crede when his value was peeked. I know this is all conjecture...

 

 

We should have signed Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee. And we shouldn't get rid of Crede

[michelangelosmonkey]

If you don't like the realism and want to fill up the board with hopes and aspirations that is your right. No logic or factual reasoning to support it is necessary I guess so be my guest. When the season rolls around, I will join you in your cheering and be pumped with you but we will divide following the games until a major change occurs. Whether it's all-in with this team or we fold and cut out losses.

 

Sorry for scaring you. I know you are truly concerned.

See here is where the non-stop pessimism on Soxtalk gets to me. People on this board will say great things about Shefield and say Thome is old and injury prone. They will talk about the great young pitching on the Twins and say the Sox young pitchers suck. They will talk about how Hafner will bounce back (or imply it) while Dye has no chance to bounce back. If one points out Contreas's great finish and his #1 status 18 months ago...the board will come crashing in with 'a 57 year old getting lucky against AAA call ups.' One is a wild eyed optimist if one says...Danks 4.5 ERA in his first 80 big league innings at 22 showed me that he might someday be a good pitcher. The preferred board position is his 6.50 ERA final 50 innings is more indicative of the turd he really is. Why is that not wild eyed pessimism? I will agree that the White Sox are not the Yankees. The Yankees can pay for an all star at every position...it must be fun to be a yankee fan. But I'm not. I'm a White Sox fan. We have a limited budget but we KNOW...and I'm sorry for the 2005 reference but to me it's encouraging...that a rag tag bunch of guys CAN win the WS against the most expensive team, or the team with the best farm system or the team that looks best in fantasy leagues. Drink the hemlock if you'd like...but don't tell me that the hemlock is reality. Neither you nor I nor anyone can say that Fields will hit 50 homers or commit 50 errors. No one knows if Gio Gonzalez will come in and be Lirirano for 3 months. It's ridiculous to say its ridiculous. I guess one could put odds on it... 10% chance that Gio = surprise ace. 3% chance that Floyd does. .01% that Heath Phillips does. But strange things happen in baseball ALWAYS. Guys have bad years guys have great years. Don't tell me my belief in this particular core of a team is silly...because while they are that 72 win team of last year, they also are the 90 win team of the year before...and they've added interesting parts. Gold Glove shortstop with a nice bat. 2006 top 25 prospect in all baseball. A relief pitcher that 12 months ago we would have been screaming with joy over. And there's still money to spend. Pass the Kool aid. Go sox.

 

 

[Kid Gleason]

Small point, but didn't Shingo actually start 2005 as our closer? Then he became in-effective and we moved Hermanson in? Then when he got hurt we moved in Jenks? If I remember, Shingo was all the rage in 2004, leading us to being very comfortable in the closer spot.

[WCSox]

Eh I'm getting tired of people saying KW jumped the gun on dealing Garland. OC was the best impact player we could've gotten for Garland and filled a major hole.

 

Yeah, and he created an even larger hole in the middle of the rotation. JMO, but Uribe at SS is a lesser evil than Floyd in the rotation.

 

He picked up Uribe's option so he actually had enough leverage to pull off a deal like that for Garland.

 

Was it worth paying $4.5 million for a utility player that can't hit? Not sure about that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Cabrera a lot. But I don't see how adding him and losing Jon makes the Sox a better team. And Jon is going to be worth a lot more than Cabrera in June and July.

 

[sircaffey]

Yeah, and he created an even larger hole in the middle of the rotation. JMO, but Uribe at SS is a lesser evil than Floyd in the rotation.

Was it worth paying $4.5 million for a utility player that can't hit? Not sure about that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Cabrera a lot. But I don't see how adding him and losing Jon makes the Sox a better team. And Jon is going to be worth a lot more than Cabrera in June and July.

 

I'm right there with you. People say it we are a better team, but how? Have we not seen what an incomplete rotation is like? Do we remember Mr. Danny Wright? THE Gary Glover, Jon Rauch, Jim Parque, Rocky Biddle, and all that other crap that was shuffled through the rotation from 2001-2004? I'd much rather have a hole in the offense. Afterall, we won the World Series with one. We haven't won s*** without a complete rotation.

[Kyyle23]

I'm right there with you. People say it we are a better team, but how? Have we not seen what an incomplete rotation is like? Do we remember Mr. Danny Wright? THE Gary Glover, Jon Rauch, Jim Parque, Rocky Biddle, and all that other crap that was shuffled through the rotation from 2001-2004? I'd much rather have a hole in the offense. Afterall, we won the World Series with one. We haven't won s*** without a complete rotation.

 

I know what you are saying, but none of those guys were thought of as the special pitcher that Floyd was when he was drafted and coming up through the phillies system. Floyd may not have the mental tools to be the pitcher we all want him to be(which is debatable, he hasnt had a long career to prove it either way), but he has always had the physical tools to be a really good pitcher.

[kapkomet]

Read KW's quotes this morning. He thinks he has a championship team. The guy has totally lost his mind.

He has to say that.

[WCSox]

I know what you are saying, but none of those guys were thought of as the special pitcher that Floyd was when he was drafted and coming up through the phillies system. Floyd may not have the mental tools to be the pitcher we all want him to be(which is debatable, he hasnt had a long career to prove it either way), but he has always had the physical tools to be a really good pitcher.

 

The encouraging thing about Floyd (and Owens, for that matter) is that both finished strong this past season. I'm in no way suggesting that either of these guys are going to be elite players (or even high-tier players), but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they both had solid years in '08.

 

I'm still not a fan of this trade, but I don't expect Floyd to absolutely suck nuts in '08 either.

 

[Kyyle23]

The encouraging thing about Floyd (and Owens, for that matter) is that both finished strong this past season. I'm in no way suggesting that either of these guys are going to be elite players (or even high-tier players), but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they both had solid years in '08.

 

I'm still not a fan of this trade, but I don't expect Floyd to absolutely suck nuts in '08 either.

 

I actually believe Floyd will win 10+. If Coop can get him in a good rhythm and get him to trust his stuff and listen to AJ, he will be just fine.

 

Owens is a crapshoot, and it all depends on his playing time. Should he somehow end up the starter or "floating" starter ala Mackowiak, I think he will be a .280+ hitter with little power and many SBs. If he is going be be a last guy on the bench type player and isnt getting in regularly, I could see his numbers looking similar to what they looked like last year when he was sent down.

[southsider2k5]

He has to say that.

 

I don't know about you, but anytime I have a product to sell, I like to tell people it is the s***tiest thing out there. I find the honesty helps sell more...

[fathom]

I don't know about you, but anytime I have a product to sell, I like to tell people it is the s***tiest thing out there. I find the honest helps sell more...

 

How about "we're always looking for ways to upgrade the team"? It comes across a lot less arrogant.

Edited December 7, 2007 by fathom

[whitesoxfan101]

Small point, but didn't Shingo actually start 2005 as our closer? Then he became in-effective and we moved Hermanson in? Then when he got hurt we moved in Jenks? If I remember, Shingo was all the rage in 2004, leading us to being very comfortable in the closer spot.

 

Correct on all counts, the 2005 White Sox are the only team I'm aware of to ever win a championship with 3 different closers over the course of the championship season. It's a testament to how great our middle relief, Hermanson, and Jenks were that year, as well as the starting pitching.

Edited December 7, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[CarlosMartinez]

How about "we're always looking for ways to upgrade the team"? It comes across a lot less arrogant.

 

You've listened to Kenny before right? I wouldn't hold your breath.

Edited December 8, 2007 by CarlosMartinez

[max power]

How about "we're always looking for ways to upgrade the team"? It comes across a lot less arrogant.

and a lot less confindent

[WilliamTell]

If we're stuck with this team right now, which I don't think we're done yet in this off season, but if we are stuck with them, it is going to be a long year going up against last year's division champs the Indians, and the newly stocked Tigers, not to mention who knows about the Twins and Royals.

[Rex Kickass]

Small point, but didn't Shingo actually start 2005 as our closer? Then he became in-effective and we moved Hermanson in? Then when he got hurt we moved in Jenks? If I remember, Shingo was all the rage in 2004, leading us to being very comfortable in the closer spot.

Yes, although it seemed as though Shingo had gotten the kinks out when he got sat for Herm, who was just pitching out of his mind. It wasn't that Shingo was pitching all that badly when he got replaced - it was that Herm was pitching that well, no?

[YASNY]

Yes, although it seemed as though Shingo had gotten the kinks out when he got sat for Herm, who was just pitching out of his mind. It wasn't that Shingo was pitching all that badly when he got replaced - it was that Herm was pitching that well, no?

 

Shingo couldn't have been pitching too well. He was released not long after losing the closers role.

Edited December 8, 2007 by YASNY

[Leonard Zelig]

Shingo couldn't throw strikes with his slow stuff and hitters were just teeing off on his "fastball".

[Rowand44]

Shingo couldn't throw strikes with his slow stuff and hitters were just teeing off on his "fastball".

Yup, he lost complete control of the frisbee and it was game over for him.

[Drew]

Shingo forgot where the strike zone was. Don't get me wrong, I loved watching him in 2004 as he was one of the only things about that season that wasn't disappointing, but he pretty much fell apart in '05.

[Rex Kickass]

Shingo couldn't have been pitching too well. He was released not long after losing the closers role.

He was released because he refused to go to the minors.

[witesoxfan]

Yes, although it seemed as though Shingo had gotten the kinks out when he got sat for Herm, who was just pitching out of his mind. It wasn't that Shingo was pitching all that badly when he got replaced - it was that Herm was pitching that well, no?

 

Shingo had a 6.91 ERA in his first 14.1 IP

[max power]

Shingo was scary awful in '05. Kudos to the management for not trying to ride it out.