Do we need a philosophical change?

[Jeremy]

We're heavily invested in winning now with Contreras, Buehrle, A.J., Dye, Paully, Cabrera, and Linebrink. Trading one player to get younger won't do a whole lot to change that and you can't really trade several of them right after you just signed/extended most of those guys.

[Jack Parkman]

Not defending the Garland trade, but besides the Santana talks obviously and the Willis deal (Miggy's the main part, and would have cost Maybin and Miller minimum), how many trades have there been for SP's bringing back top prospects?

 

It's only superior SP's such as Haren, Bedard etc. that are being talked about as bringing back some real top prospects.

What's bothering me is that in order to even speak to Oakland or Baltimore about Haren and Bedard you have to be willing to part with FOUR top prospects. And we couldn't even get one for Gar??? Granted Garland isn't on the same level with Haren, Santana, et al, but if those guys get you 4, then Garland should at least get you one. Garland had a 3.15 ERA at the all star break. He got knocked around By minny, Boston and NYY for 11,7, and 9 ER in 4 IP or less during a 3 week stretch in July. The 11 ER start was in just 1 and 2/3 innings. That takes a huge hit on an ERA. The 9 ER start was 2 and 2/3 innings. He admitted he had was having some shoulder issues during that stretch. After that he was the same pitcher he was before the break. He had a few absolutely awful abberations and he Still finished with a 4.23 ERA, which any "league average" pitcher would have his ERA in the mid 5s or worse. Garland was very improved this year and he had almost as good of a first half as he did in 2005. Garland should have fetched something half as good as the packages that those guys are fetching, meaning 2 top guys. The only way that we should have gotten the return that we did is if there are huge concerns with Garland's shoulder and KW dumped him off on LAA because both teams knew he was going to miss some time this year.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Elgin Slim

[DBAHO]

i would not be complaining at all, and i would be very happy. To see my team go for it and stop making blathering excuses for once would be great.

And if Hunter after 2 years of his deal, becomes a .240 hitter with only 15-20 HR's a season, and an OBP around the .300 mark, would you still be very happy that we are paying him $18M a season?

 

Because I think something similar to that could become a very real possibility. He's not a middle of the order hitter, he's in his 30's, and he's obviously got a lot of wear and tear on his body after playing on astroturf for so long.

 

Do we want to become like the Yankees where they are paying the likes of Pavano and Damon over $10M a season and they're not producing much at all?

 

We HAVE to develop our young players. They offer payroll flexibility, and look at the Red Sox. Ellsbury, Buckholz, Pedroia etc. all young players contributing.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

And if Hunter after 2 years of his deal, becomes a .240 hitter with only 15-20 HR's a season, and an OBP around the .300 mark, would you still be very happy that we are paying him $18M a season?

 

Because I think something similar to that could become a very real possibility. He's not a middle of the order hitter, he's in his 30's, and he's obviously got a lot of wear and tear on his body after playing on astroturf for so long.

 

Do we want to become like the Yankees where they are paying the likes of Pavano and Damon over $10M a season and they're not producing much at all?

 

We HAVE to develop our young players. They offer payroll flexibility, and look at the Red Sox. Ellsbury, Buckholz, Pedroia etc. all young players contributing.

 

 

My favorite aussie, our farm system has shown to be pretty cruddy lately. The only decent one is Young in Arizona.

[Chombi]

The Rick Hahn era can't come soon enough.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

The funny thing is that a deal which didnt even involve the Sox today has caused this stir with people who weren't open to this earlier. Same with the firesale talks.

 

It's amazing how fast something change without even changes to our team. There might just be hope on this board after all.

 

Seems like lots of people are seeing the big picture. We are an 80 win max team on paper in a perfect world. Factor in our division and probably 70-75 wins max. Take into account we won't reach maximum potential and we should hover around 70 and most likely below 70 while carrying a top 10 payroll in baseball of 100+ million.

 

I'd want a firesale but I am slowly losing hope in KW and not sure if I want his hands molding our future that he will probably not be apart of.

 

I'll back you in the nomination for Hahn. I am not totally off on KW but I am gradually getting there, and with Dye's comments leaking I'd imagine some of the players are getting there too.

[DBAHO]

My favorite aussie, our farm system has shown to be pretty cruddy lately. The only decent one is Young in Arizona.

Josh Fields isn't decent?

[Chombi]

What's bothering me is that in order to even speak to Oakland or Baltimore about Haren and Bedard you have to be willing to part with FOUR top prospects. And we couldn't even get one for Gar??? Granted Garland isn't on the same level with Haren, Santana, et al, but if those guys get you 4, then Garland should at least get you one. Garland had a 3.15 ERA at the all star break. He got knocked around By minny, Boston and NYY for 11,7, and 9 ER in 4 IP or less during a 3 week stretch in July. The 11 ER start was in just 1 and 2/3 innings. That takes a huge hit on an ERA. The 9 ER start was 2 and 2/3 innings. He admitted he had was having some shoulder issues during that stretch. After that he was the same pitcher he was before the break. He had a few absolutely awful abberations and he Still finished with a 4.23 ERA, which any "league average" pitcher would have his ERA in the mid 5s or worse. Garland was very improved this year and he had almost as good of a first half as he did in 2005. Garland should have fetched something half as good as the packages that those guys are fetching, meaning 2 top guys. The only way that we should have gotten the return that we did is if there are huge concerns with Garland's shoulder and KW dumped him off on LAA because both teams knew he was going to miss some time this year.

 

I wouldn't deal prospects for another SP. Unless you are keep DLS or Gio and acquiring Lincecum I would just pass.

 

The deal for Miggy was for a HOF bat which we didnt have. Bedard and Haren are good pitchers but I wouldn't call them great. Even Haren down the stretch started to look more like a 2 starter, maybe worse. The Garland trade would be useless then as well because we basically dealt prospects for Cabrera and are improving somewhat in the rotation but not as much as a Miggy deal would've improved us. That make sense?

 

Dealing 4 guys is out of the question in my eyes for either of those 2. Bedard hasn't had prolonged success so I think it gets overlooked and needs to be pointed out a lot that he is 28 already. He is not really that young and is ready to cash in. I don't think our system as a whole is significantly better adding he or Haren. Like I said, Miggy sure. Those two...no.

 

If Linecum is truly available. Or Cain. Supposedly one of the two is available then I'd go after them. Even Kazmir I would consider (he should be cheaper but Steve Phillips may have ruined that theory) but nothing older then 25 in a SP is worth acquiring. Unless you plan on dealing MB or jV to replace the farm a little.

[Chombi]

We're heavily invested in winning now with Contreras, Buehrle, A.J., Dye, Paully, Cabrera, and Linebrink. Trading one player to get younger won't do a whole lot to change that and you can't really trade several of them right after you just signed/extended most of those guys.

 

Bingo. You can do it, but we wont.

[DBAHO]

What's bothering me is that in order to even speak to Oakland or Baltimore about Haren and Bedard you have to be willing to part with FOUR top prospects. And we couldn't even get one for Gar??? Granted Garland isn't on the same level with Haren, Santana, et al, but if those guys get you 4, then Garland should at least get you one. Garland had a 3.15 ERA at the all star break. He got knocked around By minny, Boston and NYY for 11,7, and 9 ER in 4 IP or less during a 3 week stretch in July. The 11 ER start was in just 1 and 2/3 innings. That takes a huge hit on an ERA. The 9 ER start was 2 and 2/3 innings. He admitted he had was having some shoulder issues during that stretch. After that he was the same pitcher he was before the break. He had a few absolutely awful abberations and he Still finished with a 4.23 ERA, which any "league average" pitcher would have his ERA in the mid 5s or worse. Garland was very improved this year and he had almost as good of a first half as he did in 2005. Garland should have fetched something half as good as the packages that those guys are fetching, meaning 2 top guys. The only way that we should have gotten the return that we did is if there are huge concerns with Garland's shoulder and KW dumped him off on LAA because both teams knew he was going to miss some time this year.

Well I suppose the Freddy Garcia trade brought us back Gio and Floyd. One a top 50ish prospect, the other showed a bit late in 2007.

 

Would you have preferred something like this return for Garland instead of what we got?

 

I blame Juan Uribe's ineptness at the plate more than anything, for forcing KW to make a change here.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Josh Fields isn't decent?

 

 

hes fine i guess.

[daa84]

Josh Fields isn't decent?

its actually pretty funny...i was just talking to my brother saying that fields could really turn out to be an impact type player for us....we produced basically only jon garland from the top ranked farm system back in 2000 (buerhle too, but he was a bit ahead, and really wasnt a marquee player that gave us that ranking) (and crede, but hes been nothing beyond an average major leaguer)....now when our system is at its worst, we may end up producing an all star.....its funny in projections, you can have very little depth in your minors, but if those guys you have do turn into gold, your farm system can still be very productive, more productive than a deep system with only a few guys who truly make a big impact

Edited December 5, 2007 by daa84

[gosox41]

Just a question for those who care to give an opinion... But now that the Tigers seem absolutely loaded does anyone agree with me that maybe the White Sox should change directions a bit. Kenny and management have said that they want to win now, but it seems that after that trade that "on paper" they are well behind the Tigers, and I think theyre still behind the Indians...

 

Is it time we shift directions a bit and go to the Angles with Konerko and get some quality young talent? then do the same with Crede, Thomse (if he'll wiave his no trade clause), and maybe the likes of Aj or Dye if we can get quality in return?

 

Maybe Im just bummed after watching the Tigers pull off that blockbuster... their lineup is better than the Yankees or Red Sox by a ton IMO... Granderson, Polanco, Cabrera, Magz, Sheff, Guillen, Renteria, Pudge, and J. Jones... i mean wow... thats monstrous...

 

If we cannot realistically put ourselves in position to make the playoffs i think we need to start going after young talent or some big guns...

 

 

I thought the Sox should have gone younger since mid-07. Too many holes on this team and not enough money or minor league talent to fill them.

 

 

 

Bob

[RockRaines]

Yes, less fans. Please all stay away from the Cell this year.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Philosophical change was needed as soon as the inevitable decline was seen in the second half of '06.

 

[quickman]

And if Hunter after 2 years of his deal, becomes a .240 hitter with only 15-20 HR's a season, and an OBP around the .300 mark, would you still be very happy that we are paying him $18M a season?

 

Because I think something similar to that could become a very real possibility. He's not a middle of the order hitter, he's in his 30's, and he's obviously got a lot of wear and tear on his body after playing on astroturf for so long.

 

Do we want to become like the Yankees where they are paying the likes of Pavano and Damon over $10M a season and they're not producing much at all?

 

We HAVE to develop our young players. They offer payroll flexibility, and look at the Red Sox. Ellsbury, Buckholz, Pedroia etc. all young players contributing.

 

 

I do not disagree with devloping our own players but I do disagree with the people doing the picking and developing. We really are not the best talent evaluators. So if we do end up going that route, I think we need to re-define our people. Businesses do it all the time, move people out and or around to re-invent or deliver better results.

[Chombi]

Yes, less fans. Please all stay away from the Cell this year.

 

Seriously. I don't mind everyone showing up and selling the thing out cuz thats fun. But if it's not a sell out and we aren't going to use that money then I'd like it to go back to the 03-04 days when I really started hitting the ballpark hard for about 20-30 games a year. Not many people ever there and casual strolls to the front row behind the right field tarp were easier then breathing.

[RockRaines]

Seriously. I don't mind everyone showing up and selling the thing out cuz thats fun. But if it's not a sell out and we aren't going to use that money then I'd like it to go back to the 03-04 days when I really started hitting the ballpark hard for about 20-30 games a year. Not many people ever there and casual strolls to the front row behind the right field tarp were easier then breathing.

Thats what im saying. It would benefit us all. I like being able to move up. I enjoyed it in 05 actually.

[southsideirish71]

Thats what im saying. It would benefit us all. I like being able to move up. I enjoyed it in 05 actually.

 

Enjoy the 5th place finishes, and the 65-75 million dollar payroll if attendance takes a dump for a few years.

 

 

 

[fathom]

Thats what im saying. It would benefit us all. I like being able to move up. I enjoyed it in 05 actually.

 

Come on, you know the last thing we need is a decrease in attendance, as it will lower our payroll.

[Wanne]

and with Dye's comments leaking I'd imagine some of the players are getting there too.

 

Sorry...but could fill me in on those comments? I must have missed 'em.

grassy.....

[RockRaines]

Come on, you know the last thing we need is a decrease in attendance, as it will lower our payroll.

Maybe we can get it back near the range where we won the WS. I really dont care, ive been through it before. Its exactly whats going to happen if we rebuild, which most of us want.

Edited December 5, 2007 by RockRaines

[southsideirish71]

Maybe we can get it back near the range where we won the WS. I really dont care, ive been through it before. Its exactly whats going to happen if we rebuild, which most of us want.

 

The AL Central wasnt a power division like it is now. If we drop back into the 70s in payroll, we will need draft and development to get this team back. We dont do either of those well.

[Wanne]

The AL Central wasnt a power division like it is now. If we drop back into the 70s in payroll, we will need draft and development to get this team back. We dont do either of those well.

 

Starting to draft some position players would be nice. I do like the fact they were proactive and signed some 16 year old latin phenoms. Why not. It's things like that that need to be done.

[Chombi]

They will spend 70-80 mil and with young players (post firesale) it will easily be enough to be under it...Then in a few years we can load up and fill the place for a few years again only to underspend while those seats are sold out.

[DBAHO]

I do not disagree with devloping our own players but I do disagree with the people doing the picking and developing. We really are not the best talent evaluators. So if we do end up going that route, I think we need to re-define our people. Businesses do it all the time, move people out and or around to re-invent or deliver better results.

Well I think with the firing of Duane Shaffer and the hiring of new scouts at most levels, I think the Sox brass have recognised that they need to improve their talent evaluation, drafting and scouting in the lower levels.

 

Hiring Buddy Bell to teach the fundamentals at the lower levels should help as well.