Do we need a philosophical change?

[joeynach]

This is exactly what I was thinking. I think this changes everything, granted the Tigers will get old very fast after 08. I dont really see the logic in going for it all in 2008 when your a 72 win team trying now to compete against 2 virutal 95 win locks. What is KW going to do between now and April to turn this team from 72 wins to what it appears the Tigers and Indians have on paper, 95 win teams. NOTHING, there is just nothing short of Arod and Santana thats going to do it. It would make sense actually to play all of Danks, Gio, Flloyd, Broadway, Owens, Sweeney, Fields a full season now. Get our young guys some experience build this franchise makes some trades add some pieces and be ready to compete again in 2009 or 2010 when the cyclye starts to reverse for Cle and Det. Problem is this is a business and you still gotta put butts in the seats. I think the right thing to do now is to trade Crede and Konerko and bring in some young talent, but thats not going to work in this business of generating revenue. No doubt if the sox add a Rowand or a an Andruw Jones they will be better and perhaps generate more revenue but in reality its not going to translate to championships on the field, at least not in 2008. Its a tough call to make I think being a large market large payroll team you cant get away with the whole gut and rebuild thing, you can only do KW's build on the fly. You still have huge sponserships deals, tv/radio, tickets to sell, etc etc and putting the florida marlins out there would hurt all the revenue streams. Thats why you dont see the yanks, mets, dodgers, angels, giants, every really go the gut and rebuild mode either, its just not the right market for that. So instead we will be stuck with moderate upgrades at a few positions that should make us competitive against the real teams in our league (NY, BOS, CLE, DET, LAA) and we will be 81-81 in 2008.......whoop de do......its just reality.

[greg775]

I don't understand why the Sox can't ever flat out win a trade or make a trade that

excites everybody.

Getting Willis and Cabrera for a batch of prospects would have excited everybody.

But I guess our prospects aren't good enough in the eyes of opposing teams.

They don't want our lousy prospects.

 

[Kalapse]

I don't understand why the Sox can't ever flat out win a trade or make a trade that

excites everybody.

Getting Willis and Cabrera for a batch of prospects would have excited everybody.

But I guess our prospects aren't good enough in the eyes of opposing teams.

They don't want our lousy prospects.

How would you categorize the Quentin deal?

[RockRaines]

I don't understand why the Sox can't ever flat out win a trade or make a trade that

excites everybody.

Getting Willis and Cabrera for a batch of prospects would have excited everybody.

But I guess our prospects aren't good enough in the eyes of opposing teams.

They don't want our lousy prospects.

Or the angels, or the Dodgers.......

[Rowand44]

I don't know which one it will be, but just by random chance, I'll give you big odds that at least 1 of those 4 teams won't make it.

^^^ NY and Detroit would be my guesses as of now.

 

As for the thread, this organization needs a lot of changes at the moment.

[greg775]

How would you categorize the Quentin deal?

 

I didn't know that deal excited anybody.

Is the guy a stud? Hope so.

[Rowand44]

I didn't know that deal excited anybody.

Is the guy a stud? Hope so.

He's a talented guy. No one knows what he's going to produce right away but the trade was a great one to get a guy with his upside who is major league ready.

[The Beast]

He's a talented guy. No one knows what he's going to produce right away but the trade was a great one to get a guy with his upside who is major league ready.

Hey Rowand44, off topic here. I just saw your sig. Mullins is actually my neighbor and I have played basketball with him several times. I may be able to get you an autograph or something.

 

Anyway, as far as our team goes, I think to myself, yeah, Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis are good, but I think pitching could hurt Detroit this year. If anything, right now Kenny should just go out and make a splash move like signing Fukodome or someone overpriced to get things exciting again.

 

As for Richar, I don't know if we can trust him much yet at second base, which is why I'd bring in someone during ST just to battle with him and give competition. (As non-realistic as that may sound.) I also think Crede could be gone in the next few days and if he could go to Milwaukee for some Major League ready talent, that would be sweet as well. I'm very optimistic about the Sox despite what I've seen thus far. It shows Kenny went after a high priced free agent and is probably mulling options over for some marquee players.

 

Also, we cannot afford to decrease payroll and go back to the days of 14,000 asses in the seats. I'm not having that, we have come a long way since those pitiful times.

 

Just my two cents.

[greg775]

Quentin gives us a LF we control for 4-5 seasons, and he projects well.

Linebrink albeit I don't like the signing, should be fairly reliable out of the pen. Upgrade on Mac and Thornton.

Cabrera replaces Uribe, which for me is a HUGE relief.

 

So it's a start, and obviously he still has a lot to do. Holes at CF, back end of rotation and the pen.

 

Pretty encouraging post.

Hole in CF can be erased with Rowand signing.

Back end of rotation: How bout signing Kenny Rogers?

If Linebrink is good, that can really help us.

If Quentin is as good as a lot of you say, that's a big upgrade from last year's patheticness in lf.

I hate to see Garland go, so KW is definitley going to have to improve the rotation or we

are hosed this season.

Linebrink might be the only relief addition, so some of those guys who were pathetic last year

like Thornton, MacDougal, etc., are going to have to do the job.

Add Rowand, another starter, pray Linebrink is good and we might be OK.

Not contenders, however, unless CAREER YEAR is the name of the game with guys like

Thome, Paulie, Dye, Mark, Javier, Contreras again, which I guess is possible.

Sorry for the rambling, but I thought that was an encouraging post.

 

[Kalapse]

Kenny Rogers already re-signed with Detroit.

[greg775]

Kenny Rogers already re-signed with Detroit.

 

That sucks. I wish we could get Paul Byrd or somebody like that.

A Maddux type.

Danks, Floyd and Jose could do the job, but will they?

[Chombi]

Sorry...but could fill me in on those comments? I must have missed 'em.

grassy.....

 

I guess really that came out wrong...The comments were moreso about Dye and his phone call to KW.

 

Supposedly he said KW had promised him Hunter and Cabrera this offseason and used it to the Sox advantage for him re-signing.

 

To me, that cracks me up cuz I didn't want Dye and was hoping we'd deal him. His injuries and performance this season ruined that dream so I thought he had little choice but to come back to the Sox. Now he plays it off as if we forgot how bad he was earlier this year. What a POS for nice a guy.

 

In all fairness though, if KW did promise him that it is safe to assume that promise was made to Buehrle and even other players on the ballclub who were curious about the teams future.

 

The fact that it was reported that Dye called KW minutes after has to show some signs of him being upset. Unless I am really underestimating how nice the guy is and he called to tell KW "Nice try, you'll getem next time".

 

I'd say it didn't go that route and went with Dye very upset and probably requesting information on a new plan worth staying for or to be dealt if KW didnt have one.

 

Hopefully KW's new plan involves dealing Dye among others and then both problems are solved.

[Chombi]

Pretty encouraging post.

Hole in CF can be erased with Rowand signing.

Back end of rotation: How bout signing Kenny Rogers?

If Linebrink is good, that can really help us.

If Quentin is as good as a lot of you say, that's a big upgrade from last year's patheticness in lf.

I hate to see Garland go, so KW is definitley going to have to improve the rotation or we

are hosed this season.

Linebrink might be the only relief addition, so some of those guys who were pathetic last year

like Thornton, MacDougal, etc., are going to have to do the job.

Add Rowand, another starter, pray Linebrink is good and we might be OK.

Not contenders, however, unless CAREER YEAR is the name of the game with guys like

Thome, Paulie, Dye, Mark, Javier, Contreras again, which I guess is possible.

Sorry for the rambling, but I thought that was an encouraging post.

 

I don't get what was encouraging from the post.

 

I love Quentin but to pencil him in the next 5 years is dangerous. Do I think he can live up to his billing prior to injuries? We'll see. Key thing there too, injuries. He has hardly gone a year without one. He is very fragile so we may be in over our heads planning on him going 810 games for us or whatever the math comes out to over the next 5 years.

 

Otherwise Linebrink could end up being a bad deal and I hope it is. I hope so because if nothing else happens noteworthy for us this offseason and Linebrink bombs...KW's days may be numbered cuz i am growing old with the ego trip he is on.

 

Cabrera is good and an upgrade but it wasn't a necessity. It was a luxury. We weren't in position for luxuries. Keeping Uribe for another year while dealing Garland for prospects or a leadoff type OF is what he should've been dealt for. KW just figured Hunter was a lock for CF and Miggy for LF so I guess that explains the move. In retrospect, the deal is looking less likely to be helpful for us.

 

On to your post...Rogers isnt available. Signing Rowand merely fills the hole for now, doesnt erase it. And in 4 years when we can't deal the 34 year old who is battered and bruised, and putting up his usual mediocre numbers during that stretch, maybe worse...we will be very upset. Very upset. No one will touch him. It'll as worse as Jose and Crede, all while paying him 12-15 mil to play "grinder" baseball.

 

Last thing...We can't bank on career years. Plus most of those guys had their career years already. See 05'.

 

Don't worry about the rambling. I do it too and I think people respect everyone around here enough to let it slide. Even if it may get on their nerves, they are quite polite (I can't spell that word anymore because of Cliff) and willing to listen. Good post.

[Jeremy]

Im sorry but how many of our wondeful farm was part of the 2005 team??

 

This isn't a "keep our prospects" argument. Anyone who thinks there are no circumstances where we should trade prospects or no circumstances where we shouldn't trade prospects isn't being very reasonable. The issue is what's a good value and what's not. Hopefully we can all agree that if we could acquire M-Cab as a rent a player right before he was hitting the free agent market and were only willing to go as high as $10 million a season in attempts to resign him, we'd be stupid to trade away the entire farm system when we'd only end up with him for a few months. Whether we could have won with him in the next two seasons and whether we could've signed him to a worthwhile extension might be worth discussing. You shouldn't always trade your prospects no matter what the return is though, even if only because your assets would better be used in a different trade. Furthermore, you have to use the term "prospects" pretty loosely when talking about dealing your #3 starter and starting 3B for next season.

 

The guy is a future HOF, who is only 24 years old, and would just abso. mash at the Cell, while our best prospect in DLS looks to have #1 stuff, but many scouts like him more as a bullpen arm, please give me Miggy over our whole system. Its too bad, if we couldve gotten him, we wouldve been able to retool in the draft with our high pick (and if we dropped the slot bonus bs)

 

I'm not saying he wouldn't be worth trading for, just that it's not a slam dunk. When it's possible that we'd win 80 games with him the next two seasons and then lose him for nothing as a free agent I don't believe that we can give up anything and still have it be a great deal just because he's a good player.

 

What's bothering me is that in order to even speak to Oakland or Baltimore about Haren and Bedard you have to be willing to part with FOUR top prospects. And we couldn't even get one for Gar??? Granted Garland isn't on the same level with Haren, Santana, et al, but if those guys get you 4, then Garland should at least get you one.

 

I don't know why people are still surprised by this: Kenny didn't want a prospect, he wanted a veteran because he's trying to win now.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jeremy

[Jordan4life_2007]

How the hell could anybody be mad at Kenny? The Tigers just traded two of the top 10 prospects in ALL of baseball. And from what I hear, the other 4 guys in the deal aren't too shabby, either. Kenny made a very legitimate offer. How many teams could top what the Tigers just traded?

[rcpweiner]

The only philosophical change that's necessary are in regards to our minor league system. The team needs to start drafting high upside-high price type prospects and not continue to play it safe. If you look at a team like the Yankees or even the Tigers (before this trade), they were built in relatively short time spans because of taking chances. This not only pays dividends by producing some home-grown talent (something the White Sox have done horribly over the past ... decade?), but also have the correct pieces when it comes to making blockbuster trades.

 

As to the majors, the only gaping holes in the team right now are CF and that 5th SP (the bullpen might need some work, but that's not horribly out of shape right now). If they handle those two positions, it'll be a competitive team next year, just not in the same league as the Tigers are right now on paper. But really, right now, only the Red Sox are on that level.

 

(Note: Please don't ask me to back up any of the above with "statistics" or "names" or "knowledge" of any kind.)

[Chombi]

How the hell could anybody be mad at Kenny? The Tigers just traded two of the top 10 prospects in ALL of baseball. And from what I hear, the other 4 guys in the deal aren't too shabby, either. Kenny made a very legitimate offer. How many teams could top what the Tigers just traded?

 

It's not this deal that makes everyone mad at kenny. It's the whole picture.

 

He had a plan coming into the offseason. We have learned priorities one and two were Hunter and Cabrera.

 

He got neither. Why?

 

Losing Hunter was bad because it was an offer thing. He thought he had him which is the sad part but we weren't close.

 

In doing so, he also dealt Garland for a SS after we had re-signed Uribe. Yea he got us a no.2 hitter but he didn't need it in the form of a SS. He needed a LF or Cf, even in the form of a 2nd baseman may have been higher priority.

 

He also could've landed prospects if he was serious about a Cabrera deal. Now Cabrera resides in Detroit. A team who just missed the playoffs after makign it to the WS. So not only do they improve on a team by dealing guys who really didn't help them get to the seasons they've had the last two years, but the addition is in the form of a 24 year old HOF caliber player and a pitcher who really is getting overlooked because of one bad season. A very bad season but it was as an Ace for a bad team. Not the 4 or 5 starter on an World Series caliber team.

 

He also made a potentially poor signing in Linebrink. He does not look good for us and our park. Look at the last 30+ games and you'll see the proof is right there in the pudding. O yea, and he gave Linebrink that no-no 4 year deal that this team has had a policy against for years.

 

Now that is just this offseason. An offseason in which we are coming off a near last place finish. Needed things to be changed but all we did was get older and not fill the holes we have. We actually created a new one potentially if none of our SP's step up.

 

Our farm is garbage. Hopefully the new squad in there will fix that but I am reluctant to assume improvement until I see more. So far, I like what they've done though.

 

He hasn't landed a big name in FA in his tenure. His trades are bold and potentially helpful but then again sometimes he makes bad choices. IE giving up Young for Javy instead of Anderson.

 

He just does a lot of bad with the good and we took it because we won. His stock is declining and moves are beginning to wear thin. His ego from 05 I think has stopped him from pursuing and doing what is necessary to win or what is smart, and folding his cards and moving on. Thats what needs to occur here and he isn't seeing that.

 

As far as the Tigers are concerned. Good for them. They risked a lot for a HOF player because they know they can build that farm again. They are confident in their scouting and have proven before that they will take a stint in the dumps to get to this point. They also know they are players in FA now and willing to make big moves when necessary.

 

It's not KW's fault that they got those guys, it's his fault the pieces weren't in place for us to land him.

[witesoxfan]

The GMs themselves (do they manage to shout their demands in a more convincing fashion), or by the prospects in other teams' systems?

 

Bringing in the right prospects by way of proper scouting and coaching on the amatuer and minor league levels is part of the GMs responsibility too, no?

[joeynach]

I also posted this in the "Dye Calls up Kenny" thread since the two are related, but I wanted to give it its own thread since I think its basically the biggest story of the off season. In this article from the Sun Times I and anyone else who has been following KW's "plan" business can now wholeheartedly interpret what the whole fuss was about and how it has already translated onto pieces of this team.

 

The sun times article seems to lay forth a lot we know already. Sometime in July KW and the organization decided 2007 was more of an aberration than a mainstay and if they upgrade with players who are "impact" players while at the same time keep the core in tact, they can turn a 72 win team into a champion in 1 off season. So step 1 in july was to retain 3 parts of the core, Dye, Buehrle, and AJ and part of doing so was KW laying forth the plan to add these "impact players". As interpreted from the article above, KW gave specific names, which we now know to be the likes of Hunter, Miguel Cabrera, and perhaps even Linebrink. I'm sure he told Dye, Buehrle, AJ that he would "do everything in his power" to get these guys in a sox uniform. They were on board and signed, step 1 complete. Step 2 was to acquire the veteran bullpen help piece. Step 2 was recently completed with signing of Linebrink to a 5 year 20 Mil deal, which by most accounts is defiantly overpaying. Nonetheless, step 2 as promised and laid forth by the plan was delivered. Step 2A was to sign Hunter to the 5 Year/75 Mil deal it was said he wanted. KW knew before the season was over that he had this big FA signing approved by the chairman. Step 2A failed when the angels swooped in and overbid everyone else for Hunter and got him to sign. Step 2B was to go after Miguel Cabrera, who everyone knew would be available, with a package of everything we got; either Fields or Crede, along with Gio, Danks, Broadway, etc. Well, step 2B just failed and even worse he landed on one of our division rivals....OUCH!!

 

So basically this was the plan KW was talking about the whole time. The whole I have plan thing, and it will be revealed soon was basically all that. And Dye, Buehrle, and AJ were all informed of the plan back in July when they signed and to this point the plan has simply failed. Not that its necessarily because of something KW did or didn't do, just by unpredictability and the moving and shaking in the FA and trade markets. That being said KW's confident certainty about getting Hunter and Miguel Cabrera was a bit foolish in such an uncertain environment. Nonetheless, he was still as aggressive as he said he was going to be. That is what the article is referring to when it states that Dye called KW and asked what happened. Dye, just like the rest of us was wondering how the hell did we not get what we thought we were going to get, and what went wrong (which is obvious that the Tigers simply offered better talent). So there you have it, KW was planning on keeping the core; dye, buehrle, and AJ, as well as adding a SS (turned out to be Cabrera), veteran bullpen arm, and was going to add the likes of Hunter and Miguel Cabrera. Too bad it didn't work out, it actually would have been a vastly improved team.

 

The point now is that with all of us recognizing the fact that the plan has basically failed and any attempt to replace the "impact" players with lesser free agents or trades will only piss us off. The article quotes KW in saying, "Asked if it was time to regroup, Williams said: ''No, we have to try to be the best team we can be." Which basically tells us all right there KW will continue to try and add these lesser players on cue with the "plan". On the other hand, we are saying forget it, its not worth it given what has just transpired, play the damn kids. I think this is the real turning point. It would have been nice for KW to say we're going to re-evaluate our position and consider a deviation from the original "plan". Even if it involved trading some of the vets already onboard (dye, buehrle, Konerko, AJ) and trying to get some young talent. Moreover it seems that KW (with an already approved payroll increase) just wants to keep to the gameplan (ala lovie smith) and continue to bring in now what we would call "non impact" type players. Stubborn? Yes! Foolish? Maybe! I'm sure there is revenue analysis in all this plan business on how having a team with Kids vs Names correlates to revenue streams, sponsorships, and tickets sales. However, in reality anything KW does from here on out, in terms of 2008, is all in vain. He can keep his "Core" and continue to add pieces from FA or trades, or he can gut the Vets and bring in some young talent, either way 2008 is defiantly over!! And personally, I would hope 2009 and beyond is on Kennys radar as well because if we learned anything from 2007 veteran laiden teams get very old and very bad very fast....cough Tigers cough!!!

[BearSox]

f*** you Kenny Williams, f*** you.

[G&T]

Out of curiosity, if MCab went to a team other than a division rival, would anybody here really care? We knew the Sox didn't have the players to land him, and even if they did, there was a question of how they would fill the holes in their roster. I'm pissed too, but if the Angels got him would be people saying, "good thing we didn't blow up the roster for one guy."?

I do agree though that this should be a turning point in the mind set of the front office because this team won't be competitive in this division next year. Unfortunately they've started down the "win now" path and probably can't reverse based on the contract extensions they gave out.

[jphat007]

LOL

[rpmahr]

seasons over we might as well just give up and not even watch because its not likely that we can get lucky and everyone has career years

[RME JICO]

MCab was never going to get this team past the Indians and Tigers.

 

KW can't control what other teams do or offer. If they offer better prospects, what can KW do, throw Greg Walker in the deal? Florida didn't want our prospects.

 

Same with Hunter, should KW have offered more money than LAA?

 

 

[Pasqua's Mailman]

The point now is that with all of us recognizing the fact that the plan has basically failed and any attempt to replace the "impact" players with lesser free agents or trades will only piss us off.

 

You mean like what happened in 2005? Go back and look at that offseason... many public "misses" but seem to recall that season turning out alright... Nobody has won anything yet and nobody has lost anything yet... Its not about signing the FAs that make the public happy its about putting together a team that wins... that will be judged on the field... not on a fan message board or the newspapers in December...