Do we need a philosophical change?

[jasonxctf]

I don't know why everyone is freaking out so much. The only thing you can win in the offseason is the "on-paper world series".

 

On-paper right now the Sox don't look so great because everyone had a bad season last year.

On-paper right now the Tigers look completely awesome.

On-paper in 2005 the Whitesox looked like crap. Hermanson was our closer! Dustin Fing Hermanson! Dye was coming off a decent season. Garland was coming off a 12 win season with a 4.89 era. We said goodbye to Lee and Ordonez, two of baseballs best. But we won it all. And we beat Boston and LAA to get there.

On-paper in 2006 we looked even better. We added Jim Thome who tore it up. But we finished third.

 

So everyone just stop whining so much. All Kenny Williams can do is field a good team. The players have to win. There is no need to rebuild now. We can wait til after this season and try and dump Kornerko, Thome, Dye, etc. to rebuild.

 

 

its actually quite simple, in 2005 KW improved upon 2004 weaknesses to field a better team. Team needed speed. Team needed singles/doubles hitters. Team needed a solid 5th starter (El-Duque), etc.

 

For 2008 he hasn't.....yet. He upgraded at SS but downgraded at SP. He added a bullpen arm but took on an extra $4.5 million of unnecessary salary. So all-in-all we've treaded water. At the same time, our inter-division rivals have either (a) started building for the future or (B) stacked up talent for a 2008 WS run. The Sox on the other hand are sitting in neutral.

[Balta1701]

For 2008 he hasn't.....yet. He upgraded at SS but downgraded at SP. He added a bullpen arm but took on an extra $4.5 million of unnecessary salary. So all-in-all we've treaded water. At the same time, our inter-division rivals have either (a) started building for the future or (B) stacked up talent for a 2008 WS run. The Sox on the other hand are sitting in neutral.

Erstad + Podsednik = Quentin in your eyes?

[lord chas]

we are gonna stink

[Wanne]

Without starting a new thread...I'm just kind of curious what people would have done different since October of '05 differently?

 

Should we have held on to El Duque?

Kept Rowand?

Dealt Freddy after '05.

 

I think in hindsight...maybe one of the smarter moves would have been dealing Crede when his value was peeked. I know this is all conjecture...

[southsideirish71]

I don't know why everyone is freaking out so much. The only thing you can win in the offseason is the "on-paper world series".

 

On-paper right now the Sox don't look so great because everyone had a bad season last year.

On-paper right now the Tigers look completely awesome.

On-paper in 2005 the Whitesox looked like crap. Hermanson was our closer! Dustin Fing Hermanson! Dye was coming off a decent season. Garland was coming off a 12 win season with a 4.89 era. We said goodbye to Lee and Ordonez, two of baseballs best. But we won it all. And we beat Boston and LAA to get there.

On-paper in 2006 we looked even better. We added Jim Thome who tore it up. But we finished third.

 

So everyone just stop whining so much. All Kenny Williams can do is field a good team. The players have to win. There is no need to rebuild now. We can wait til after this season and try and dump Kornerko, Thome, Dye, etc. to rebuild.

 

The 2005 AL Central wasnt all that good. The 2008 AL Central is one of the best in baseball. Beating up on the division, which helped juggernaut the sox will be a bit harder. Take a look at the Tigers and see if anything in 05 compared to that team. The competition is tougher. Saying because it happened in 05 doesnt mean a thing, because each season is a vacuum.

 

 

 

[jasonxctf]

Erstad + Podsednik = Quentin in your eyes?

 

The long-term potential is certainly there for Quentin, but is he the 2008 starting OF we needed for an upgrade over Podsednik or Erstad? Maybe 2009-10 but not 2008.

 

Heck, Jerry Owens has showed more at the big league level than the 2007 .214 hitting Carlos Quentin.

[ExpatNYC]

we are gonna stink

I think this is a real possibility. While I appreciate the optimism above, the fact is that the AL Central in '05 was nowhere near what it was this season, or what it will be next year. That's why our chances of going to the postseason next year are very, very low. IMHO, Kenny needed to blow up the team after the All Star break, but for some reason he didn't For some reason he let Pods and Grinderstad play when they should have been DFA'd to make room for the kids. Of course, what we're dealing with now, in large part, is the legacy of the '05-'06 off-season.

[striker]

As much as we sucked last year we still had a winning record against Detroit. The talent was there for us but the attitudes just stank. Hopefully we get off to a good start and the players don't fall apart.

 

Our minor league system is bare but even if we had a hot prospect, the only position we have to fill is CF. If we sucked again this year we could easily replenish our minor league system with a firesale. Dye, Kornerko, Crede, Vazquez would all bring at least one A prospect in return. I'm confident one of Danks, Gio, Gavin or Eggy will pan out.

 

The Whitesox of 2008 have alot to prove and have the capability to win. I'm sure they'll be alot better than last year.

[retro1983hat]

72 wins in 2007 means that KW and the entire team did not do their job well last year.

 

They get paid millions of $$$ to play a game. Part of getting that money means the scrutiny comes with it. I don't want a bunch of hard-working, tough, grinder, passionate, Chicago guys. I want a good baseball team. There is no trophy for the team with the best effort. We were a bad, bad team last year. The only positive for me was Bobby Jenks.

 

Every team except the Boston Red Sox needs to look at last year as a failure. The White Sox need to look at it as an embarrassment.

[southsideirish71]

As much as we sucked last year we still had a winning record against Detroit. The talent was there for us but the attitudes just stank. Hopefully we get off to a good start and the players don't fall apart.

 

Our minor league system is bare but even if we had a hot prospect, the only position we have to fill is CF. If we sucked again this year we could easily replenish our minor league system with a firesale. Dye, Kornerko, Crede, Vazquez would all bring at least one A prospect in return. I'm confident one of Danks, Gio, Gavin or Eggy will pan out.

 

The Whitesox of 2008 have alot to prove and have the capability to win. I'm sure they'll be alot better than last year.

 

The team lost 90 games. Thats horrid. Who cares if we had a winning record against Detroit. When we were a good team we had problems with KC and Detroit. Good teams have problems sometimes with horrid teams. I am sure that the Rays hold a nice feeling to all of the hell they gave the Yanks all these years. But they were not the same.

 

The only position to fill is CF?

 

 

Crede is going to get us a A prospect?

Dye is going to get us a A prospect?

 

The 08 team is the same team that lost 90 games except we picked up a SS, and we picked up a reliever. Those two upgrades dont tell me that this all of a sudden is a good team.

 

 

[klaus kinski]

Our minor league system is barren of talent, our major league team is (at best) very thin on talent despite costing over 100 million dollars, our GM has overseen an on field team that has failed to make the playoffs 6 of his 7 years, and we can't make trades due to lack of talent and won't make FA deals since we continue to show up to the gun fight with a pocket knife, continue to bring 50 cents to the dollar show, etc. These points combined with the fact that KW and Ozzie won't shut up as we continue to fall far behind the rest of the division leads to some anger from everybody outside of the most unrealistic and optimistic fans.

 

Well Done

 

[Flash Tizzle]

Can we please stop referencing 2005? I don't mean to ruin striker's thread, but honestly, can everyone please move on? It'll be two and half seasons beginning in April since that fateful night. Quit mentioning it. Yes, it was a tremendous time for all White Sox fans; but the manner in which the team was constructed, divisional opponents, the players itself; everything was different.

 

My Christmas wish is for a language filter to include the numbers "2005." It has to end sometime, right?

Edited December 6, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[max power]

Can we please stop referencing 2005? I don't mean to ruin striker's thread, but honestly, can everyone please move on? It'll be two and half seasons beginning in April since that fateful night. Quit mentioning it. Yes, it was a tremendous time for all White Sox fans; but the manner in which the team was constructed, divisional opponents, the players itself; everything was different.

 

My Christmas wish is for a language filter to include the numbers "2005." It has to end sometime, right?

Flash tizzle is right.

We all need to focus on the negative.

This was a terrible team last year, KW is a joke to think we would compete.

Its not important what it took to win a world series three years ago.

It is important that we are the worst team in baseball.

My hats off to greg775 for showing me the light.

 

[jasonxctf]

Our minor league system is bare but even if we had a hot prospect, the only position we have to fill is CF.

 

 

Who is the starting LF?

Who is the starting 2B?

Who is the 5th Starter?

 

[CanOfCorn]

Can we please stop referencing 2005? I don't mean to ruin striker's thread, but honestly, can everyone please move on? It'll be two and half seasons beginning in April since that fateful night. Quit mentioning it. Yes, it was a tremendous time for all White Sox fans; but the manner in which the team was constructed, divisional opponents, the players itself; everything was different.

 

My Christmas wish is for a language filter to include the numbers "2005." It has to end sometime, right?

 

I agree...if that same filter also blocks..."horrid," "terrible," "bad," and "2008." At least until opening day.

[whitesoxin']

To answer your questions posed in the title, it is because that is what people do here. No matter what.

[NorthSideSox72]

Who is the starting LF?

Who is the starting 2B?

Who is the 5th Starter?

Quentin

Richar

Danks or Floyd

 

LF and 2B are really not major concerns now, IMO. Its CF, 4th or 5th starter and maybe the bench that need attention.

 

[WCSox]

Flash tizzle is right.

We all need to focus on the negative.

This was a terrible team last year, KW is a joke to think we would compete.

Its not important what it took to win a world series three years ago.

It is important that we are the worst team in baseball.

My hats off to greg775 for showing me the light.

 

Don't forget that Kenny is a big stupid poopy head.

 

Soxtalk wouldn't be Soxtalk without massive hyperbole and pessimism.

 

 

[Soxfest]

As of today KW deserves alot of flack his offseason thus far is not good! 1 playoff year under KW it is not a free pass forever just because 2005 was magical.

Edited December 6, 2007 by Soxfest

[Flash Tizzle]

Flash tizzle is right.

We all need to focus on the negative.

This was a terrible team last year, KW is a joke to think we would compete.

Its not important what it took to win a world series three years ago.

It is important that we are the worst team in baseball.

My hats off to greg775 for showing me the light.

And the other World Champions since then, or before us? Can't we model ourselves off anyone else, or are the 2005 White Sox to team to which all others are judged?

 

Starting pitching + defense + effective bullpen + timely hitting + luck = championship. There's your model. It's generic and doesn't require the mention of 2005.

 

I don't know how it's possible to ignore the negatives, since no one could possibly have faith for 2008 without throwing in references to past teams (ie, the expects didn't think the 2005 team would be good!!!). I'd like to hear someone explain why they believe the roster, as currently constructed, can make up the 28+ wins necessary to reach the playoffs. Please do this without saying anything about the possibility of career seasons from everyone. Just base arguments on available statistics, and then afterwards, compare those to divisional opponents. And "that's why they play the game" or "we were paper champions in 2006" doesn't work either.

 

It's not as if we're brimming with minor league talent, either. Unless our drafts begin producing a stream of talent, the next several seasons may be dreadful

Edited December 6, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[elrockinMT]

I didn't like Garland being moved, but it's quite obvious from the meetings that Reinsdorf will not spend the money to keep our premier players or sign others. I don't care what the team speak is actions speak louder than words. The move though was not too quick. You do what you have to do when the time presents itself. Iam sure we are not through lowering our team standard yet as we will soon see Crede go and maybe others.

[Jeremy]

Kenny resigned A.J., Buehrle, Dye, and Vaquez to extensions in the past nine months and Contreras and Paully were already signed to long term deals so missing out on a couple more veterans wouldn't have made turning the entire team over into rebuilding an easy, logical next step, especially with all the no trade clauses and 5/10 rights floating around.

[rockren]

Kenny resigned A.J., Buehrle, Dye, and Vaquez to extensions in the past nine months and Contreras and Paully were already signed to long term deals so missing out on a couple more veterans wouldn't have made turning the entire team over into rebuilding an easy, logical next step, especially with all the no trade clauses and 5/10 rights floating around.

 

I agree. People saying that KW should rebuild now need to get their heads checked.

 

I do believe people can rip KW for not starting the rebuilding process back in July...that would've been the perfect time to have done it.

 

But now KW is going for it and we are at best the 3rd best team in our division as of right now heading into '08.

 

I don't think we're as bad off as people here say we are....but we'll see what happens.

Edited December 6, 2007 by rockren

[WCSox]

And the funny thing is that if Williams gets some of his big pieces and then still didn't have a SS, RP, and let Garland walkaway becaues he couldn't afford to keep him with the new big contracts he just aquired, people would b**** about that too. Its an imperfect process that is affected by the actions of 29 other organizations. I know Kenny Williams like to drink the blood of infants and all, but I can only imagine if your bosses held you all up to the same perfect standards...

 

I basically agree, but I really think that he jumped the gun with Garland. Unless Jon completely sucks from April-June, he certainly would've gotten a lot more in return for him next summer. And while it's nice to have Cabrera and all, it SS wasn't really a glaring need, especially AFTER he picked up Uribe's option.

 

[rockren]

I basically agree, but I really think that he jumped the gun with Garland. Unless Jon completely sucks from April-June, he certainly would've gotten a lot more in return for him next summer. And while it's nice to have Cabrera and all, it SS wasn't really a glaring need, especially AFTER he picked up Uribe's option.

 

Eh I'm getting tired of people saying KW jumped the gun on dealing Garland. OC was the best impact player we could've gotten for Garland and filled a major hole. He picked up Uribe's option so he actually had enough leverage to pull off a deal like that for Garland.

 

People are being unfair in critiquing that deal IMO.