Do we need a philosophical change?

[witesoxfan]

but it's quite obvious from the meetings that Reinsdorf will not spend the money to keep our premier players or sign others.

 

Jesus Christ, so Mark Buehrle and Paul Konerko are just absolutely garbage players aren't they? Jermaine Dye is not solid? Or were you just asleep when those moves happened?

 

 

[Chombi]

I don't know why everyone is freaking out so much. The only thing you can win in the offseason is the "on-paper world series".

 

On-paper right now the Sox don't look so great because everyone had a bad season last year.

On-paper right now the Tigers look completely awesome.

On-paper in 2005 the Whitesox looked like crap. Hermanson was our closer! Dustin Fing Hermanson! Dye was coming off a decent season. Garland was coming off a 12 win season with a 4.89 era. We said goodbye to Lee and Ordonez, two of baseballs best. But we won it all. And we beat Boston and LAA to get there.

On-paper in 2006 we looked even better. We added Jim Thome who tore it up. But we finished third.

 

So everyone just stop whining so much. All Kenny Williams can do is field a good team. The players have to win. There is no need to rebuild now. We can wait til after this season and try and dump Kornerko, Thome, Dye, etc. to rebuild.

 

That whole thing is silly.

 

Be optimistic all you want. If you have a problem with people who live in reality, change the channel.

 

True you can't win a WS now, but you sure a f*** can lose them. That stupid half-glass empty or full mentality is fine. Your qoute applies to the first months of the season too, but lots of teams lose their chance early. Not win, but certainly lose a division in April/May/December...etc. It's just a dumb thing.

 

05' I am so sick of hearing about. It's amazing people like you claim to be so optimistic about how this team can be good, but then you contradict your own theory and claim that the 05' team looked awful. It's total manipulation on your part to try and act as though we aren't in a world of trouble.

 

I've already dabbled in other sections about the 05' team and quite frankly, I am sick of it. But for you, I'll gladly give you an overview.

 

2004. Maggs played 50 games. Frank was hurt. We had Jason Grilli, Felix Diaz, Scott Schoenweis in our rotation....It was upgraded with Freddy. Contreras was an upgrade over our 5th starter that we didnt have if you remember correctly. We signed El Duque who everyone knew would have healthy issues but if he could hold over, it would've been huge. A healthy Dye was better then the injured Maggs and yea we lost Carlos Lee and his big bat but we replaced it with speed and somewhat better defender and BULLPEN ARM THAT HELPED US ALL SEASON.

 

And save the Hermanson comment. Did you become a Sox fan in 06? Do you not recall that Billy Koch was our closer the previous year? Do you remember how bad he was for us? Hermanson sorry to say it was an upgrade.

 

I can't say I thought this team was a lock to win it. I'd be lying, I hoped theyd win but didnt expect it. I did expect them to be much closer in a division that they FINISHED IN SECOND PLACE IN THE YEAR PRIOR. wITH ALL THOSE PROBLEMS, THEY STILL FINISHED 2ND. HOW WERE THOSE DEALS NOT UPGRADES????!?!?!

 

So I state the question again and ask you whether you were even a Sox fan before 05 because clearly you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Yes I am sure someone will point out experts picked us to come in 4th. Some, like Rob Neyer picked us to win. Most of the others had no idea what to expect of us because of all the moves we made. They aren't fans. Most fans see moves as positive or negative.

 

Yea the Lee thing scared me a little but I was excited to have a guy who would steal us 70+ bases. I remember hearing his avg was low in Milwaukee the previous year because they wanted him to be more of a deep threat, so I attributed that to his low avg and OBP. We didn't need Pods to do that and I expected the steals to be crossed with his 04' OBP/Avg.

 

And 06' we hardly looked better on paper. We had to worry about Thome's health. We lost Rowand and we had the concern as to if everyone could repeat the same crazy seasons they had in 05'. All that and again we weren't picked by everyone to win it. And yea we finished 3rd. With 90 wins and several components missing from our offense...like Scott Podsednik, who was our catalyst.

 

Next KW deserves slack. Our farm is not on the level it should be. His fault. We have made some stupid moves. His fault. His ego is not allowing him to break this up. He thinks it was so good that it can be good again. It can, but not on the same level as it was. We had fluke years out of guys. Minimal injuries. Things go our way. The division is much harder too incase you havent noticed.

 

That may be my favorite part. People will admit this team is worse then 05 or 06'. And they'll acknowledge that the division is much better. But when they are asked to add those two things together, it's like you gave them math they've never heard of. They have trouble that both of those together doesn't make you a good team. I don't get it.

 

So yea...I am going to keep "whining" as you put it. I will sure to hound you every day next season too. Several messages a day saying "I told you so". Thats assuming you aren't back in Wrigley by then.

 

And why wait til after the season? So there is more negatives showing on those guys? So they're a year older? Another year closer to FA? Which of those negative lights team shine on making deals are you pushing for? maybe you'd prefer it takes an extra year to get back into contension? Instead of starting now, let's wait till we are definately out of it. Not cut out losses b4 they get worse?

 

The Sox are Microsoft stock. It hit highs in 05 and 06. 07 it took a huge hit. Instead of selling because there are more signs of worse to come then there are positive signs...You hang on. Hits rock bottom next year and you come away with nothing.

 

I should hire you to manage my portfolio. You're brilliant. You can tell me about how I whine since I am concerned about something that I have cared for and followed for years, while you have only been caring for them and following for 2 years.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Chombi

[jasonxctf]

Quentin

Richar

Danks or Floyd

 

LF and 2B are really not major concerns now, IMO. Its CF, 4th or 5th starter and maybe the bench that need attention.

 

 

does that seem like a World Series Championship team??? A .215 hitting LF, a .230 hitting 2B and a 3rd/4th/5th starter with ERA's of 5.57, 5.50 and 5.27.

[witesoxfan]

does that seem like a World Series Championship team??? A .215 hitting LF, a .230 hitting 2B and a 3rd/4th/5th starter with ERA's of 5.57, 5.50 and 5.27.

 

As far as I can tell, there's only one person who has ever given the notion that it was remotely close to that. And he kind of have as position of power within the White Sox organization.

[Pants Rowland]

Without starting a new thread...I'm just kind of curious what people would have done different since October of '05 differently?

 

Should we have held on to El Duque?

Kept Rowand?

Dealt Freddy after '05.

 

I think in hindsight...maybe one of the smarter moves would have been dealing Crede when his value was peeked. I know this is all conjecture...

 

I like your questions. I think El Duque would be great to have around in 2006...as a coach and friend to Contreras. That wasn't going to happen, so trading him was not a bad idea. He is great to have around with the bases loaded and nobody out, but using a roster spot on him did not make sense. I never liked trading Rowand for Thome. Thome is great in every respect, but I think the Sox could have improved their lineup without shooting the moon and given up Rowand and several prospects. I do not think Rowand is the superstar some make him out to be, but I do believe losing him impacted the Sox in the clubhouse and on the field in 2006 and 2007. I also think it put Brian Anderson in a position that he was not ready to handle. Dealing Freddy would have proved genius but few could have seen his decline coming after Game 4. One question you did not ask was whether we should have traded Young for Javy. Whether the D'Backs may have wanted Anderson over Young or not is immaterial to me. I think that Javy was a good pickup for this team no matter his struggles in 2006. His shortcomings would not have mattered if the bullpen wasn't in shambles in 2006 and the defense wasn't ruined with Mack in CF. Further, if the Thome trade did not happen, we may have been able to work something else out with AZ and kept Young and Anderson. Overall, I find KW has two big problems. He can't keep his mouth shut and he falls in love with certain players. He works well under the radar, but when he is after a player he obsesses and everyone knows about it(see Alomar, Everett, Thome, Vazquez, Everett again, Griffey even though it never happened). Then teams tend to get more from him than necessary and we have a barren farm system.

 

[Balta1701]

does that seem like a World Series Championship team??? A .215 hitting LF, a .230 hitting 2B and a 3rd/4th/5th starter with ERA's of 5.57, 5.50 and 5.27.

Does a world series team seem like one who had pitchers put up ERA's of 4.48, 4.54, 4.78, and 7.15, who's leadoff hitter put up a .314 OBP, and who's LF hit .199 the year before?

 

The guys I just gave you were Robertson, Bonderman, Maroth, Verlander, Granderson, and Thames in 2005.

 

Sure, it might be a bit unfair saying that Justin Verlander was going to fail in 2006 based on the 7.15 ERA he put up in 11 innings in 2005, but I don't see how that's any more unfair than what you just did with the rookie seasons of Richar, Quentin, Danks, and to a lesser extent Floyd.

[Rowand44]

Does a world series team seem like one who had pitchers put up ERA's of 4.48, 4.54, 4.78, and 7.15, who's leadoff hitter put up a .314 OBP, and who's LF hit .199 the year before?

 

The guys I just gave you were Robertson, Bonderman, Maroth, Verlander, Granderson, and Thames in 2005.

 

Sure, it might be a bit unfair saying that Justin Verlander was going to fail in 2006 based on the 7.15 ERA he put up in 11 innings in 2005, but I don't see how that's any more unfair than what you just did with the rookie seasons of Richar, Quentin, Danks, and to a lesser extent Floyd.

Game Balta.

[jasonxctf]

hope you're right

[Balta1701]

hope you're right

So do I. Even I'll admit that it would take an awful lot of questionable things going right for this team to be competitive next year. I just am trying to say you can't write off every single guy on this team, young or old, without taking the circumstances into account. Richar hit .230? Sure, but he improved quite a bit as the year went on, he played for 2 months, and he was really raw before coming up anyway. Quentin hit .210? Yeah, but he was hurt the whole year. Danks struggled? Yea, but he was 22. Floyd struggled? Yeah, but he did turn it up at the end.

 

The odds are at least a couple of them will fail. But that doesn't mean that we shouldnt' give them a chance to do so.

[Jeremy]

.I do believe people can rip KW for not starting the rebuilding process back in July...that would've been the perfect time to have done it.

 

Exactly. The die was cast a while ago. People shouldn't continue to bash Kenny every time for a questionable direction he took us six months ago. If you hate this direction the best you can hope for is that if we're not going to contend - and that seems relatively unlikely - we lose enough games to bring on a full scale rebuilding project further down the line and/or Kenny loses his job.

[The Ginger Kid]

this is a weak FA class and the hottest trade prospect in years slipped through our grasp. it's not the worst thing to have happen. detroit gave up a lot for those two guys.

[GreenSox]

Let's think about this for a moment.

 

Did KW act too quickly in trading Garland and signing Linebrink? It seems like he now only has half of his plan completed. Would he of traded Garland for an established player if he knew he would wiff on Torii and Miggy? My guess is no.

 

If he knew these events were to unfold, would the Sox have made a decision to rebuild? Does anyone else think KW is half way into a plan that is not feasible anymore?

 

Plan? What plan.

When he pays Uribe $4.5 million and the next week trades his best trading chit for another SS, that's a pretty good clue that Williams has no plan. He's merely reacting.

[gosox41]

Let's think about this for a moment.

 

Did KW act too quickly in trading Garland and signing Linebrink? It seems like he now only has half of his plan completed. Would he of traded Garland for an established player if he knew he would wiff on Torii and Miggy? My guess is no.

 

If he knew these events were to unfold, would the Sox have made a decision to rebuild? Does anyone else think KW is half way into a plan that is not feasible anymore?

 

 

Hindsight is 20/20. I think he traded for Cabrera to show Hunter he was serious about upgrading the team. Not that that was the sole reason, but at the time he felt he was going to sign Hunter.

 

As much as KW has screwed up this organization for years to come with his so-called plan to build on an aging declining roster, you won't hear me say he acted too fast. You have to make your first move at some point and getting a SS was a priority. But we all know the 2008 team as going to be designed to go for it so he migh as well execute his plan. If anyone thinks Torii HUnter wsa the answer to push this team over the top, they're wrong.

 

Now if you want to talk about KW's logic of not rebuilding and going for it in '08, then I'll criticize him.

 

 

Bob

[gosox41]

I agree. People saying that KW should rebuild now need to get their heads checked.

 

I do believe people can rip KW for not starting the rebuilding process back in July...that would've been the perfect time to have done it.

 

But now KW is going for it and we are at best the 3rd best team in our division as of right now heading into '08.

 

I don't think we're as bad off as people here say we are....but we'll see what happens.

 

I've been saying rebuild since July. And I think even if we spent money on Hunter, we'd still be screwed next season unless the Sox jacked their payroll up $25 mill to fill other holes.

 

What we need here is a forum for predictions so we can all go back and look up what was said about personnel moves, etc. It's one thing to predict won/loss record, but it's also fun to analyze a move once it's made and come back in a few months and see who got it right. But some don't like when old threads are brought back 6 monhs or a year later.

 

 

 

Bob

[striker]

That whole thing is silly.

 

Be optimistic all you want. If you have a problem with people who live in reality, change the channel.

 

True you can't win a WS now, but you sure a f*** can lose them. That stupid half-glass empty or full mentality is fine. Your qoute applies to the first months of the season too, but lots of teams lose their chance early. Not win, but certainly lose a division in April/May/December...etc. It's just a dumb thing.

 

05' I am so sick of hearing about. It's amazing people like you claim to be so optimistic about how this team can be good, but then you contradict your own theory and claim that the 05' team looked awful. It's total manipulation on your part to try and act as though we aren't in a world of trouble.

 

I've already dabbled in other sections about the 05' team and quite frankly, I am sick of it. But for you, I'll gladly give you an overview.

 

2004. Maggs played 50 games. Frank was hurt. We had Jason Grilli, Felix Diaz, Scott Schoenweis in our rotation....It was upgraded with Freddy. Contreras was an upgrade over our 5th starter that we didnt have if you remember correctly. We signed El Duque who everyone knew would have healthy issues but if he could hold over, it would've been huge. A healthy Dye was better then the injured Maggs and yea we lost Carlos Lee and his big bat but we replaced it with speed and somewhat better defender and BULLPEN ARM THAT HELPED US ALL SEASON.

 

And save the Hermanson comment. Did you become a Sox fan in 06? Do you not recall that Billy Koch was our closer the previous year? Do you remember how bad he was for us? Hermanson sorry to say it was an upgrade.

 

I can't say I thought this team was a lock to win it. I'd be lying, I hoped theyd win but didnt expect it. I did expect them to be much closer in a division that they FINISHED IN SECOND PLACE IN THE YEAR PRIOR. wITH ALL THOSE PROBLEMS, THEY STILL FINISHED 2ND. HOW WERE THOSE DEALS NOT UPGRADES????!?!?!

 

So I state the question again and ask you whether you were even a Sox fan before 05 because clearly you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Yes I am sure someone will point out experts picked us to come in 4th. Some, like Rob Neyer picked us to win. Most of the others had no idea what to expect of us because of all the moves we made. They aren't fans. Most fans see moves as positive or negative.

 

Yea the Lee thing scared me a little but I was excited to have a guy who would steal us 70+ bases. I remember hearing his avg was low in Milwaukee the previous year because they wanted him to be more of a deep threat, so I attributed that to his low avg and OBP. We didn't need Pods to do that and I expected the steals to be crossed with his 04' OBP/Avg.

 

And 06' we hardly looked better on paper. We had to worry about Thome's health. We lost Rowand and we had the concern as to if everyone could repeat the same crazy seasons they had in 05'. All that and again we weren't picked by everyone to win it. And yea we finished 3rd. With 90 wins and several components missing from our offense...like Scott Podsednik, who was our catalyst.

 

Next KW deserves slack. Our farm is not on the level it should be. His fault. We have made some stupid moves. His fault. His ego is not allowing him to break this up. He thinks it was so good that it can be good again. It can, but not on the same level as it was. We had fluke years out of guys. Minimal injuries. Things go our way. The division is much harder too incase you havent noticed.

 

That may be my favorite part. People will admit this team is worse then 05 or 06'. And they'll acknowledge that the division is much better. But when they are asked to add those two things together, it's like you gave them math they've never heard of. They have trouble that both of those together doesn't make you a good team. I don't get it.

 

So yea...I am going to keep "whining" as you put it. I will sure to hound you every day next season too. Several messages a day saying "I told you so". Thats assuming you aren't back in Wrigley by then.

 

And why wait til after the season? So there is more negatives showing on those guys? So they're a year older? Another year closer to FA? Which of those negative lights team shine on making deals are you pushing for? maybe you'd prefer it takes an extra year to get back into contension? Instead of starting now, let's wait till we are definately out of it. Not cut out losses b4 they get worse?

 

The Sox are Microsoft stock. It hit highs in 05 and 06. 07 it took a huge hit. Instead of selling because there are more signs of worse to come then there are positive signs...You hang on. Hits rock bottom next year and you come away with nothing.

 

I should hire you to manage my portfolio. You're brilliant. You can tell me about how I whine since I am concerned about something that I have cared for and followed for years, while you have only been caring for them and following for 2 years.

 

Chombi,

 

Are you still alive? After that note I assumed you jumped out a window.

 

I've been a Whitesox fan since 1990. My favorite all time players are Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Jason Bere. Yes, Jason Bere. In fact I still have like 50 of his rookie cards.

 

Every year, no matter what happens in the offseason, I get pumped about the Whitesox. PUMPED. I go nuts in March waiting for the season to start. And every year in the past 17, except for one, the season ends up a disappointment because we didn't win it all. We had the best team in baseball in 1993 before the strike. I remember seeing all four games in Seattle and we swept them all. Ron Karkovice won one game with a homer off Randy Johnson. The fourth game of the series I had tickets behind the Mariners dugout. Between innings that Mariner Moose got on top of the Mariners dugout and pointed at my Whitesox hat and everyone started booing. Then he took it off my head and turned it inside out to the crowd cheering.

 

I've been through the 16 disappointing season in the past 17 years. But so have fans of 28 other teams. Every year anything can happen. The Tigers made it to World Series in 2006 after like 20 years of sub .500 ball. The Cardinals won it all that year with like 84 regular season wins.

 

You can complain and rant all you want, and there is probably a 99% chance you are right. But I'll take my 1% chance over your 99% any day of the week.

[Chombi]

I agree. People saying that KW should rebuild now need to get their heads checked.

 

I do believe people can rip KW for not starting the rebuilding process back in July...that would've been the perfect time to have done it.

 

But now KW is going for it and we are at best the 3rd best team in our division as of right now heading into '08.

 

I don't think we're as bad off as people here say we are....but we'll see what happens.

 

ok. I say we should rebuild now. Start checking my head but I am pretty sure logic is not a symptom that can be treated. My reason why...you answered it yourself. "We are AT BEST the 3rd best team heading into 08'"

 

And last I checked the Twins still have Johan. So outside of Hunter, Garza, Bartlett and Silva being gone. 2 of those I will say are minor because they didn't give contribution that was season changing.

 

They added one of the premier young players in baseball. How quickly we all forgot that he was the no.1 prospect and a no.1 pick. The guy is going to kill us. For whatever reason it is seemingly overlooked. I feel as though I am the only one scared of this guy. They are also adding Liriano. Pretty solid.

 

The Twins even if they deal Johan will not be "As bad as everyone on here thinks they will". Why do we only apply these theories to ourselves and never everyone? I see it all the time when people project these great things out of Fields, Danks, Richar, Quentin, and Owens...but then they say guys like Bonderman, Verlander, Willis, etc...will all underperform. It's just weird to me that we view our teams players as the center of the universe. Idk, just strange to me.

 

And yea...maybe we aren't as bad as people think...but maybe we are worse. It's a two way street and it won't be decided until the games are played...but at this point, I can't see us finishing 3rd. We didn't improve, and barely escaped finishing last in 07'. Royals actually did improve and have legit threats to break out in Gordon, Butler, Grienke, etc...But again back to that theory of how only White Sox guys will improve.

 

Idk about you...but for a team who has problems going past a certain limit with spending and all that kind of stuff....Why spend the 100 mil when we know we aren't going to win?

 

Why spend the next 3 seasons wasting money, time, and value of veterans just to finish 3rd in the division?

 

Instead, we can save money and hope they use it when it's time to really compete. We can use this time to develop the players we have now, and the ones that we trade those veterans with value for.

 

That is why I think we should do it. If using common sense and understanding your own ideas means getting your head checked...sign me up.

[rockren]

ok. I say we should rebuild now. Start checking my head but I am pretty sure logic is not a symptom that can be treated. My reason why...you answered it yourself. "We are AT BEST the 3rd best team heading into 08'".

 

So what do you want KW to do? Trade OC for less than he could've gotten for Garland? DUMB.

 

"And last I checked the Twins still have Johan. So outside of Hunter, Garza, Bartlett and Silva being gone. 2 of those I will say are minor because they didn't give contribution that was season changing."

 

If you think Johan will still be a Twin before the season starts, you're naive. I think the Twins will rebuild in a hurry, but '08 is going to be a tough year for them and people in the Twin Cities admit it.

 

"Idk about you...but for a team who has problems going past a certain limit with spending and all that kind of stuff....Why spend the 100 mil when we know we aren't going to win?"

 

So you know we aren't going to win? IF Linebrink does what management hopes he does...we might be 10 games better on that alone. Now I think Linebrink is vastly overrated, but he's a huge upgrade to our bullpen either way. With how many games we blew in the 7th or 8th inning last year...we should see vast improvement in that area alone. To say that we WON'T win next year isn't fair at this point. MB and Javy are one of the stronger 1-2 punches in any starting rotation in baseball in my opinion. If things fall right (I understand it's a big if) this team can win.

 

"That is why I think we should do it. If using common sense and understanding your own ideas means getting your head checked...sign me up."

 

Ok so we'll just go ahead and deal MB and Dye away for half of what we could've gotten at the dead line last year, even though we got bargain deals on them.

 

Come on! If you don't agree with KW's choice to "go for it in '08" in July of last year that’s fine. But to say he should back off now would be the dumbest thing he could do.

 

KW made his decision and he has to live with it and keep moving forward.

 

 

 

[bighurt4life]

If KW doesn't act fast to make the moves for linebrink and cabrera then those opportunities can disappear. the offseason is an imperfect process because you have other teams making moves as well which invariably effects what you can do. i'm sure that KW had a plan for this offseason and he went out and tried to do all the things that he could to execute that plan. whether or not his plan was realistic or not remains to be seen, i.e. perhaps he thought he would get Torii Hunter for 4 years 60 mil which in hindsight would've been unrealistic but he certainly didn't act too fast, you can't just wait for everything to fall into place as a GM. You have to be aggressive and proactive, sometimes it works like in 05, sometimes it doesn't

[Chombi]

Chombi,

 

Are you still alive? After that note I assumed you jumped out a window.

 

I've been a Whitesox fan since 1990. My favorite all time players are Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Jason Bere. Yes, Jason Bere. In fact I still have like 50 of his rookie cards.

 

Every year, no matter what happens in the offseason, I get pumped about the Whitesox. PUMPED. I go nuts in March waiting for the season to start. And every year in the past 17, except for one, the season ends up a disappointment because we didn't win it all. We had the best team in baseball in 1993 before the strike. I remember seeing all four games in Seattle and we swept them all. Ron Karkovice won one game with a homer off Randy Johnson. The fourth game of the series I had tickets behind the Mariners dugout. Between innings that Mariner Moose got on top of the Mariners dugout and pointed at my Whitesox hat and everyone started booing. Then he took it off my head and turned it inside out to the crowd cheering.

 

I've been through the 16 disappointing season in the past 17 years. But so have fans of 28 other teams. Every year anything can happen. The Tigers made it to World Series in 2006 after like 20 years of sub .500 ball. The Cardinals won it all that year with like 84 regular season wins.

 

You can complain and rant all you want, and there is probably a 99% chance you are right. But I'll take my 1% chance over your 99% any day of the week.

 

I really am not. I thought I was going to jump out the window too. I really am starting to think that Sudafed has something that just makes you angry in it. I've been sick for about a week and have been just stressin.

 

When the season rolls around. I will be rooting for the Sox and never won't. Don't mistake opinions for feelings. It'd be ignorant and foolish. I just think there are smarter moves and I am a realist. Pessimism comes with that territory because when you pay attention to the facts (4th place finish last season) and that the team hasn't improved all that much...It's a safe bet we aren't going to improve.

 

They're called odds and they aren't in our favor. You're an optimist apparently and get turned off by what you see as complaining and ranting. That may sound worse but doesn't really bother me. I'll be accurate and happy. You will pretend you're happy while avoiding the truth and get let down many times in your life but good for you cuz you stayed positive and fake during it all. but you'll keep that 1% as your motivation until your next let down.

 

I'll continue to be take my 99% accuracy rate because when it happens. I am happy that I am right. It's an ego thing...It sucks though that it comes at the expense of the teams I root for. The pessimism is really only with sports. I just expect the worst and hope for the best with certain things. It's win-win.

 

Thats where the compaining comes from. IDK but I have a pet peeve for common sense. To me, this thing is common sense. We lack it. Even people who don't think we should sell off parts don't think we stand a chance. It's weird. You're 99-1% deal for instance. Someone else said in another thread we are at best the third best team in our division...all of these things but you still want to run out there and lose. I don't get it??? Aren't you just asking to be let down and disappointed?

 

Why not improve? Why not build? Why not be ready to take the crown when it's open for the taking? Not when it's all but given out already. It's poker and we can see their hand pre-flop. They've got rockets and we have a Jack and a 3. The Jack is tempting to play on our part but we know we are way behind and the odds are real bad. Sure the flop can be Jack Jack Three but that isn't something you'd risk 100 million on? Is it?

 

I've gone in on season tickets every year and I use my own money for them. Which for a 21 year old with no real job the last few years but school and making the grades...is kind of a big deal to me. I miss several of the games but still hit up about 20 games and enjoy it more then anything. It doesn't mean I can't point out the faults in our front office and with our team...or ask people who claim this team is a contender why they think so knowing full well they're not.

 

The Tigers made some pretty nice additions for 06' buddy. We haven't. The cardinals were in the world series in 04' if you remember correctly and in 05' just missed out again. They won in 06' with the record low in wins in the worst division in baseball...what the f*** does that have to do with a bad team in 08' in the best division in baseball??? That they got lucky to be in and got hot at the right time? Try to get hot and lucky for a whole season in the AL Central. Take your 1% and call me in 100 years when it still hasn't worked out.

 

Your story was heartwarming and pretty cool. Reminds me of the Rosemont Horizon and getting Bret Hart's glasses but thats not here nor there.

 

If you have a problem with my ability to have both opinions and feelings. I am sorry.

 

If you don't like the realism and want to fill up the board with hopes and aspirations that is your right. No logic or factual reasoning to support it is necessary I guess so be my guest. When the season rolls around, I will join you in your cheering and be pumped with you but we will divide following the games until a major change occurs. Whether it's all-in with this team or we fold and cut out losses.

 

Sorry for scaring you. I know you are truly concerned.

[striker]

The only difference between you and me is I am disappointed in June, July, maybe even May when we are out of it. You are disappointed year round.

 

I wouldnt' be against dumping anyone. I've actually posted several times to trade Paulie to LAA for youth. But who knows if anyone actually wants him. If you don't like the players we have then you will kill yourself speculating all the moves we should make. When in actuality there may nt be moves out there. Thats the reality.

[rockren]

I'll continue to be take my 99% accuracy rate because when it happens. I am happy that I am right. It's an ego thing...It sucks though that it comes at the expense of the teams I root for. The pessimism is really only with sports. I just expect the worst and hope for the best with certain things. It's win-win.

 

That's actually how Cub fans act.

 

What a lame outlook.

[rockren]

The only difference between you and me is I am disappointed in June, July, maybe even May when we are out of it. You are disappointed year round.

 

I wouldnt' be against dumping anyone. I've actually posted several times to trade Paulie to LAA for youth. But who knows if anyone actually wants him. If you don't like the players we have then you will kill yourself speculating all the moves we should make. When in actuality there may nt be moves out there. Thats the reality.

 

 

KW has no choice but to keep moving forward on his "Go For It" approach. The decision was already made when he re-signed MB and Dye.

[Chombi]

So what do you want KW to do? Trade OC for less than he could've gotten for Garland? DUMB.

 

"And last I checked the Twins still have Johan. So outside of Hunter, Garza, Bartlett and Silva being gone. 2 of those I will say are minor because they didn't give contribution that was season changing."

 

If you think Johan will still be a Twin before the season starts, you're naive. I think the Twins will rebuild in a hurry, but '08 is going to be a tough year for them and people in the Twin Cities admit it.

 

"Idk about you...but for a team who has problems going past a certain limit with spending and all that kind of stuff....Why spend the 100 mil when we know we aren't going to win?"

 

So you know we aren't going to win? IF Linebrink does what management hopes he does...we might be 10 games better on that alone. Now I think Linebrink is vastly overrated, but he's a huge upgrade to our bullpen either way. With how many games we blew in the 7th or 8th inning last year...we should see vast improvement in that area alone. To say that we WON'T win next year isn't fair at this point. MB and Javy are one of the stronger 1-2 punches in any starting rotation in baseball in my opinion. If things fall right (I understand it's a big if) this team can win.

 

"That is why I think we should do it. If using common sense and understanding your own ideas means getting your head checked...sign me up."

 

Ok so we'll just go ahead and deal MB and Dye away for half of what we could've gotten at the dead line last year, even though we got bargain deals on them.

 

Come on! If you don't agree with KW's choice to "go for it in '08" in July of last year that’s fine. But to say he should back off now would be the dumbest thing he could do.

 

KW made his decision and he has to live with it and keep moving forward.

 

I don't recall I said to trade OC for less because unless we can get 2 good prospects for him, why? We can just let him go and take the picks but at the same time...He may have to. Which is further proof he is a moron for doing the deal so early (and after he signed a SS) and that we allow ego to get in the way. It may be a bad deal and we may get less, but let's keep him because we don't want anyone to know we messed up. That's your logic???

 

I don't think Johan will be around. I didnt think he would be there now. I made posts days ago saying that what they get for him may be better. I'd bet if they make the smart move with NYY and Hughes pitches well that Liriano + Hughes + Cabrera + Young gets them more win shares then Garza + Johan.

 

You honestly think Linebrink is going to be a factor? Linebrink could very well do his job and pitch well when it;s handed to him but I really doubt it. And 10 wins is a bit much. Yea Mb and Javy can possibly be a good 1-2 punch, which is great but we will need to score for them and we may get KO'd with our 3-4-5.

 

Contreras is a big if. Danks is still so young that we shouldn't rely or put that kind of pressure on him. Floyd had a good september but needs a lot of work still.

 

What I'd love is for us to realize now...while teams are still trying to improve so much that they will surrender more. I'd love to Send Paulie away for a few good prospects. I'd love to move Dye for one good prospect. Same with someone like Jenks who I think could haul in a lot for us. If we were able to acquire 6-7 mlb ready players to go along with the ones we already have...It'd be huge for us. We will still have the same "what if" shot we are relying on right now and we will also free up money, prepare ourselves for the future and also possibly deal some of our prospects for other talent to help in different areas.

 

Thats what I'd want. Man, you are making me work tonight.

[Chombi]

The only difference between you and me is I am disappointed in June, July, maybe even May when we are out of it. You are disappointed year round.

 

I wouldnt' be against dumping anyone. I've actually posted several times to trade Paulie to LAA for youth. But who knows if anyone actually wants him. If you don't like the players we have then you will kill yourself speculating all the moves we should make. When in actuality there may nt be moves out there. Thats the reality.

 

Well I am not disappointed year round. See, expecting this team to be bad has only really happened this season. These are the lowest expectations I've had since I can remember. So when we win, I will be happy and shocked.

 

Prior to this, even last year I thought we'd compete. I had a feeling that maybe we should start the firesale last season because I truly thought it'd be smart to deal MB for a lot if he pitched well. I also thought JD could bring us some nice things. Once I decided I wanted them gone, I figured why not deal everyone. My slogan was "The kids can play...and Uncle Paulie". Cheesy, Lame, etc...but it is the truth. I am bugging you guys now and we are all not thrilled with our position, imagine what I did to my roommate last season when we both thought we had a chance.

 

So if I am way overaggressive with the firesale thing it is because I have been looking at it for a year now.

 

And like I said, it's really only baseball and football I get intense like this. I think it's from those glory years of playing them. I just get real intense. Maybe it's that I am looking at a job in the industry and think that being a Maverick is how you need to approach things. IDK, but those are my cards I play when it comes to baseball.

 

Otherwise, I have a pretty easy life and a great one that I am thankful for so there is no real disappointment year round. Maybe that My Ma didn't pick up any Creme Soda or that my Nona didn't make meatballs. Thats really it....

 

Actually, this snow is a disappointment. Especially when there is no salt on the road and you almost spin out like 10 times trying to drive back to Inverness from Medinah on a moderately busy road like Roselle. Even by 90 it was a mess. That is disappointing sir.

[Chombi]

That's actually how Cub fans act.

 

What a lame outlook.

 

Actually, optimistic is how Cub fans act. That is probably why every year is "their year".

 

Realists are Sox fans. Which is why many of them refuse to show up without a winning product they can believe in.

 

Again, I am fairly certain with each post you make that you have Zero clue about baseball and anything to do with it. I don't know any cub fans who would sit back and acknowledge their team was as bad as our is right now if they were in our position.

 

Also, you can go for it all but you need to make the moves soon and really make some good ones.

 

I don't rule it out. I just want to do one or the other. Either go all-in or fold. Not sit where we are and finish 4th again. Maybe last while still spending 100 mil. Heck, I dont want to finish 3rd with our payroll and talent.

 

And yes, you do deal MB or Dye if it's the right move. IE it improves your team for your desired timetable. You can't let ego of re-signing them and a failed plan stop you from making the smart move. Admit things didn't work out and go to a new plan.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2007 by Chombi