Crede close to going to Brewers

[DBAHO]

could someone post the link to the original story?

It was on Yahoo Sports yesterday, written by Gerry Fraley I think.

[DBAHO]

That OBP is exactly what you'd expect from a guy who posted a .400 OBP in the minors.

 

Kotchman is extremely comparable to the 23-24 year old Konerko who also struggled initially after being one of the top prospects in baseball. Kotch just had a lost season last year due to Mono.

 

Kotchman probably will never be more than a 20-25 HR guy, but he'll find a way to get on base at a .400 clip in his prime, which, unlike Konerko, is in the not-to-distant future, and his defense is about 15-20 runs better than Konerko's.

If Kotchman hit at the Cell as well, it would help him probably hit another 5HR's or so, which would raise his OPS a bit.

 

Of course he has to prove that what he did this season wasn't a one off. If he can stay healthy (which has always been the issue for him) I think he'll show it wasn't.

[Dick Allen]

We are also talking about a 24 year old compared to a 31 year old. Kotchman has put up solid numbers in everyone of the stops he has made, and I see no reason to think he is anywhere close to his peak.

 

Coming into next season, Konerko will be 32. Why should I think Paul and his arthritic hip will have a bounce back season, and mash another 40 HR? I still think Konerko is a very productive player, that has an affordable deal and has a lot of value on the market, but to cast judgement on a 24 year with less than 800 AB's in the majors is, well, not smart.

Then you can look at it the other way, if Kotchman is basically just as good as Konerko is at a fraction of the cost and is only going to get better, the Angels would probably have zero interest in Konerko so why even bother speculating a trade with them.

[Chet Lemon]

So is Crede still close to going to the Brewers or is this dead for now?

[hitlesswonder]

We are also talking about a 24 year old compared to a 31 year old. Kotchman has put up solid numbers in everyone of the stops he has made, and I see no reason to think he is anywhere close to his peak.

 

And the Sox would free up a decent chunk money if they can find someone to spend it on. Not to knock Konerko, but he's one of the few tradeable assets the Sox have. If the Sox can turn him into 2 talented players, that's a good deal.

 

[Rowand44]

Yep. That's a down year for Konerko and a good year for Kotchman. Go figure. Oh yeah, it's also the first time Kotchman has put up any numbers like that, whereas Konerko has surpassed that .839 OPS 8 times in his career.

 

Care to explain Kotchman's Ervin Santana-like splits and how they would help the White Sox who don't play 81 games in Anaheim?

Your first baseman is supposed to be a slugger and run producer. That OBP is a one year event and most of it was due to his numbers in Anaheim.

You're going nuts over the splits of a hitter who plays in a pitchers park.

[Balta1701]

And the Sox would free up a decent chunk money if they can find someone to spend it on. Not to knock Konerko, but he's one of the few tradeable assets the Sox have. If the Sox can turn him into 2 talented players, that's a good deal.

The point i keep making is...right now in this market, it certainly doesn't seem like anyone will actually give up 2 talented players for Konerko. And especially not the Angels, who's prospects everyone keeps drooling over.

[Dick Allen]

Absolutley. I still think the Angels would have interest in Konerko. They are clearly still looking for a big bat, and there are some fits between the two teams.

 

I think A Konerko-Crede/Kotchman-Figgins deal could make sense for both clubs.

Why if Kotchman is just as good as Konerko and will probably make at least $30 million less than him in the next three years, would they make the trade A. straight up and B. Adding Figgins their leadoff guy for a physical question mark who will certainly be a free agent after next season? If you're saying the deal makes sense to the Angels, you're saying Konerko is a heck of a lot more desireable than Kotchman.

[hitlesswonder]

The point i keep making is...right now in this market, it certainly doesn't seem like anyone will actually give up 2 talented players for Konerko. And especially not the Angels, who's prospects everyone keeps drooling over.

 

Yeah -- I don't know if anyone would or not. People obviously are more loathe to deal prospects than they used to be. But even if the opportunity isn't there now, if Konerko plays well to start the season, a team like NYY, LAA, or AZ might be willing to pony up 2 B prospects for him. And then the Sox can try to find their Carlos Pena or Jack Cust.

[RockRaines]

Why if Kotchman is just as good as Konerko and will probably make at least $30 million less than him in the next three years, would they make the trade A. straight up and B. Adding Figgins their leadoff guy for a physical question mark who will certainly be a free agent after next season? If you're saying the deal makes sense to the Angels, you're saying Konerko is a heck of a lot more desireable than Kotchman.

They are similar but not the same type of player. Kotch is a good OBP, but hasnt yet shown the power, and Konerko is a power guy who does always have the top notch OBP. The angels would only be interested because they need the middle of the order power production from a proven player.

[Dick Allen]

They are similar but not the same type of player. Kotch is a good OBP, but hasnt yet shown the power, and Konerko is a power guy who does always have the top notch OBP. The angels would only be interested because they need the middle of the order power production from a proven player.

My point is Konerko is a better player. BTW, Konerko for not having the "top notch OBP" compared to Kotchman a good OBP guy who lacks power, surprisingly has the higher career OBP.

 

The other thing with trading Konerko is with all the problems the White Sox have against lefties, he is an exception. They would just get even worse if that's possible.

Edited December 6, 2007 by Dick Allen

[RockRaines]

My point is Konerko is a better player. BTW, Konerko for not having the "top notch OBP" compared to Kotchman a good OBP guy who lacks power, surprisingly has the higher career OBP.

Well he has ONE full season in the majors, thats gonna happen, but he should put up a better OBP over his career than Kong has. And right now, yes Konerko is the better hitter, but Kotchman is a good young 1B, who plays GG defense. He would be a good fit with our team, and Konerko would offer great protection for Vlad. If we could swing Kotchman+another player, it would be an even trade IMO.

Edited December 6, 2007 by RockRaines

[Dick Allen]

Well he has ONE full season in the majors, thats gonna happen, but he should put up a better OBP over his career than Kong has. And right now, yes Konerko is the better hitter, but Kotchman is a good young 1B, who plays GG defense. He would be a good fit with our team, and Konerko would offer great protection for Vlad. If we could swing Kotchman+another player, it would be an even trade IMO.

Teams would be able to call up lefties from AAA just to beat the White Sox.

[RockRaines]

Teams would be able to call up lefties from AAA just to beat the White Sox.

probably, but thats been happening for a couple of years now.

[Dick Allen]

probably, but thats been happening for a couple of years now.

If they would have been able to get Cabrera, I could see them trading Konerko for something like that, but now, I just don't see it.

[RockRaines]

A trade like the one we are talking about are the types of deals the Sox need to look at. Kotchman is a good, young player that isn't at the level Konerko is at yet(I obviously think he is closer than others) but should get there. However, a deal could get done based on LAA needing a big bat NOW, instead of two years down the road.

 

The Sox get a young bat that is comparable to Konerko, free up money, and have a younger core to work with.

Dream scenario for me (not going to happen)

 

Trade Konerko for Kotchman and hopefully a young arm

Trade spects for Roberts

Sign Andruw Jones

 

1. Roberts 2B

2. OCab SS

3. Thome DH

4. Jones CF

5. Dye RF

6. Kotchman 1B

7. Fields 3B

8. AJP C

9 Quentin LF

[iamshack]

A trade like the one we are talking about are the types of deals the Sox need to look at. Kotchman is a good, young player that isn't at the level Konerko is at yet(I obviously think he is closer than others) but should get there. However, a deal could get done based on LAA needing a big bat NOW, instead of two years down the road.

 

The Sox get a young bat that is comparable to Konerko, free up money, and have a younger core to work with.

 

I agree with you, and this is the idea that sort of spurned the activity in this thread today. But I just don't see Kotchman as being a good enough player to move Konerko (for reasons not only on-field related) unless another significant piece would come back.

 

If I was moving Konerko for Kotchman, I would demand Santana/Sean Rodriguez back as well.

[Balta1701]

I agree with you, and this is the idea that sort of spurned the activity in this thread today. But I just don't see Kotchman as being a good enough player to move Konerko (for reasons not only on-field related) unless another significant piece would come back.

 

If I was moving Konerko for Kotchman, I would demand Santana/Sean Rodriguez back as well.

And the Angels WILL NOT be even considering that deal.

[santo=dorf]

They are similar but not the same type of player. Kotch is a good OBP, but hasnt yet shown the power, and Konerko is a power guy who does always have the top notch OBP. The angels would only be interested because they need the middle of the order power production from a proven player.

Funny how one season make Kotchman a good OBP type of guy, yet in 2005 and 2006 Konerko had a higher OBP. 1B is a slugging position so we can't just write him off as the White Sox ranked 26th in slg% last year.

 

I always hate the age argument because I rather just have the results. Should we start Anderson over Owens in CF no matter what just because he's young and his glove and arm will save 15-20 runs (a huge exaggeration IMO Gene) over Owens?

 

There's a reason why guys like Cecil Fielder, Ryan Howard, Mo Vaughn, David Ortiz, and Jason Giambi play first when they are forced into the field.

You also have to figure in the cash invovled. We would be getting basically 11.5 off the books for the next 3 years, which has a ton of value in itself.

That's good for what, a Gil Meche or Vincente Padilla? That's hardly "a ton" when the Sox were going to give $15 million for Hunter.

Edited December 6, 2007 by santo=dorf

[iamshack]

And the Angels WILL NOT be even considering that deal.

 

Perhaps not. But I think you are underestimating the value of Konerko and overestimating the value of Kotchman.

 

 

[iamshack]

You also have to figure in the cash invovled. We would be getting basically 11.5 off the books for the next 3 years, which has a ton of value in itself.

 

No, I agree. The cash is the only value there is, if you're talking about getting Kotchman and something minor back for Konerko.

[Balta1701]

Perhaps not. But I think you are underestimating the value of Konerko and overestimating the value of Kotchman.

That may well be the case, even considering the contracts. The problem is...the Angels don't always go for "fair value" when they're trading their young guys. They would have made more moves with them by now if they had, because lots of teams have salivated over their guys for 3 years now. Just because Konerko's value in our eyes may equal Kotchman and E. Santana doesn't mean the Angels would make that deal.

[spiderman]

Why the Konerko talk ? Does anyone really expect the Angels to make a trade for him or for Kenny to trade him ?

[iamshack]

That may well be the case, even considering the contracts. The problem is...the Angels don't always go for "fair value" when they're trading their young guys. They would have made more moves with them by now if they had, because lots of teams have salivated over their guys for 3 years now. Just because Konerko's value in our eyes may equal Kotchman and E. Santana doesn't mean the Angels would make that deal.

 

I don't diasgree. Keep in mind mind Stoneman is not the GM anymore. Not that Tony Reagins is going to be a whole hell of a lot different, but I don't think you can necessarily use the last 3 years as much of a gauge this early in Reagins' tenure.

 

Konerko is a guy the Angels' have been on for a while. Whether that still is the case, I can't be sure. But there are certainly signs that they are still looking for a power-hitting CI.

[spiderman]

The chances of Kong moving are probably slim, but it makes sense.

 

1. The Sox need to get younger

2. The Sox need to get cheaper at a few positions

3. Konerko still has a lot of value on the market

 

Williams should listen to offers, and take them seriously.

 

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but I just think Williams considers Konerko to be a steadying rock for the club.