Kenny not worried about Danks & Floyd as #4 & 5

[southsideirish71]

They're in the same basic situation in the same way that they're two pitchers. The key differences between them are that Brandon McCarthy had pitched some FANTASTIC innings for the White Sox and not only pitched fantastic innings but was during a World Series hunt and excepting the fact that McCarthy was always very good in the minors, too, so he had sustained some good success while Floyd hadn't.

 

Well according to your September theory, only his effort against the bad Texas rangers should count because that was in the month of August. He beat Minny twice who wasnt in contention at that point so throw that out. Detroit was bad and he pitched in detroit, so eliminate that one.

 

Cherry picking stats and when they happened is fun.

 

 

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

We should all be thankful that Kenny Williams doesn't sell crack or any other hard drugs. Considering people are actually buying the pitching won't be a problem when 40% of the rotation is Gavin Floyd he of the career 8-10 record 6.30 ERA, and John Danks 6-13 record he of the 5.50 career ERA. Another part of the rotation is Jose Contreras, a guy I do like, but a guy coming off a year that was awful. The White Sox #5 pitcher in 2006 in now the #2 guy. I'm thinking if they buy KW saying the pitching won't be a problem, they would buy just about anything he sells.

Show me one poster in here who is saying "pitching won't be a problem", or anything like that. You won't find it, nor will you find anyone who is "buying" Kenny's statements at face value. But hey, don't let that stop your hyperbole.

 

We're all concerned about it. Its just a question of what concerns are higher than others, and what might be best to do about it. Oh, and, again... its still not April.

 

[Gene Honda Civic]

See Gavin Floyd September 2004. Unfortunately his September numbers meant didley in 2005,2006 and 2007. It would be unwise to count on anything from him, just be pleasantly surprised if you get anything.

2004 Floyd was a wide-eyed rookie who walked 16 in 24 innings... Those are numbers which predicted future demise, assuming the BB/9 didn't improve.

 

2007 Floyd was a next-to-last-chance former top prospect, who was finally unafraid of the strike zone. He walked 19 in 70 innings, including 15 over his last 64 innings when he was on the roster full-time.

 

You can certainly argue about what his upside may be. And I'd argue against KW calling him (both he and Danks, really) top of the rotation guys. But as long as he's going to pound the zone, with his curveball, he's going to miss enough bats (6-7 K/9) to be an effective mid-to-back of the rotation starter, starting next season.

[29andPoplar]

2004 Floyd was a wide-eyed rookie who walked 16 in 24 innings... Those are numbers which predicted future demise, assuming the BB/9 didn't improve.

 

2007 Floyd was a next-to-last-chance former top prospect, who was finally unafraid of the strike zone. He walked 19 in 70 innings, including 15 over his last 64 innings when he was on the roster full-time.

 

You can certainly argue about what his upside may be. And I'd argue against KW calling him (both he and Danks, really) top of the rotation guys. But as long as he's going to pound the zone, with his curveball, he's going to miss enough bats (6-7 K/9) to be an effective mid-to-back of the rotation starter, starting next season.

 

Very good post, nicely stated. I agree there is room for argument about Floyd's upside. As for myself, I am shaky on it, he needs to show me more. But then again there are very few pitchers his age and with his level of MLB experience that don't need to show more.

 

The mental/confidence issue is cause for concern, it's up to him at this point. As a Sox fan I'm hopeful he's turned the corner.

[joeynach]

I hope like hell that Kenny and Ozzie are right about them.

My own opinion is Danks would make a good #5 and Floyd didn't show much of anything.

Seems like they're hitching their wagons to these guys, so I hope they surprise me.

I'm not counting on it.

 

Our lightening in the bottle was Jenks. Yea it would be nice to find a SP that way. The way Cole Hamels came up, or even Zach Duke and Oliver Perez their first years with Pit, Jered Weaver, etc. I guess Danks is supposed to be that guy hes the first round pick.

[DBAHO]

2004 Floyd was a wide-eyed rookie who walked 16 in 24 innings... Those are numbers which predicted future demise, assuming the BB/9 didn't improve.

 

2007 Floyd was a next-to-last-chance former top prospect, who was finally unafraid of the strike zone. He walked 19 in 70 innings, including 15 over his last 64 innings when he was on the roster full-time.

 

You can certainly argue about what his upside may be. And I'd argue against KW calling him (both he and Danks, really) top of the rotation guys. But as long as he's going to pound the zone, with his curveball, he's going to miss enough bats (6-7 K/9) to be an effective mid-to-back of the rotation starter, starting next season.

Yeah at least now he's cut down the BB's, and is trying to throw strikes and allow the defense to make plays behind him.

 

Obviously he's going to give up his fair share of HR's pitching at the Cell, but he's a guy who will rack up a few K's as well. And as we saw with Vazquez, flyball pitchers can indeed make it at the Cell.

[ptatc]

I don't get this philosophy.

Who says we couldn't get MORE for him than what we got?

 

Why do people assume we could have gotten MORE in every trade? KW always settles for the wrong package in trades. Looking at other teams message boards, thier "fans" say the same thing. The Angels message board couldn't believe that all they got for a gold glove shortstop who is really coming into his own with hitting was a barely average innings innings starter when they already had 5-6 good starting pitchers.

 

Unless you know of another offer on the table that was significant better than this one, of course.

[witesoxfan]

Why do people assume we could have gotten MORE in every trade? KW always settles for the wrong package in trades. Looking at other teams message boards, thier "fans" say the same thing. The Angels message board couldn't believe that all they got for a gold glove shortstop who is really coming into his own with hitting was a barely average innings innings starter when they already had 5-6 good starting pitchers.

 

Unless you know of another offer on the table that was significant better than this one, of course.

 

Come on, you mean KW didn't shop Garland around before just snatching Cabrera up?

[gosox41]

"These are guys everyone would want and most people in the industry view ultimately as top-of-the-rotation guys," Williams said last week at the winter meetings in Nashville. "Our pitching is not going to be a problem this year. We'll be just fine in that area."

 

"Floyd showed us last year he's ready for full-time big-league work," Williams said. "So did John Danks. The only reason Danks did not pitch those last couple of weeks was because we knew what we had. But we wanted to see that in Gavin Floyd so we could take that next step with both of them."

 

"We have the starting pitchers," Guillen said. "I don't know if we have a good enough lineup."

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...-home-headlines

 

==========================

 

Where does Kenny get this confidence in these guys? Danks was decent for a while last year and Floyd was awful most of the time. I understand Floyd pitched well in the last month and Danks was also good from time to time, but the data set is not large enough to make any conclusions yet.

 

Even if Kenny has confidence in them, shouldn't he just shut up? Do you guys really think these guys can pitch every 5th day, especially after seeing how Det has upgraded their O?

 

I am fine with going with this direction, but I just wish Kenny would stop making statements that are based on hope at best. There is no data to show these guys will be successful as our #4 and 5 and this stuff about everyone else seeing these guys as top of the rotation is pure crap. Did Kenny learn from his debacle off season acquisitions from last year? Who here thought that Aardsma, Masset or Sisco were going to be any good? And what happened when they were called upon to pitch?

 

Geez....KW can be so delusional sometimes and he does not get it that he needs to learn to manage expectations. If he had not made any comment about "getting the big fish" in the off season, no one would really be giving him grief for not getting anyone....now, if Floyd and Danks fail to deliver and are the reason we lose games, again, Kenny will get hell from the media and fans. Why not shut up and let it play out instead of raising expectations when there is no data to support it?

 

 

When KW & Ozzie make bold statements like this, then I will hold them to it. If Danks and Floyd are stud pitchers in 2008 then my respect for KW just jumped up a lot. If both these guys suck, the Sox will probably have a poor season and it will be 2 more reasons to can KW.

 

 

 

Bob

 

[greg775]

I hope like hell that Kenny and Ozzie are right about them.

My own opinion is Danks would make a good #5 and Floyd didn't show much of anything.

Seems like they're hitching their wagons to these guys, so I hope they surprise me.

I'm not counting on it.

 

I thought this was one of my posts the way you typed it in poem-like fashion.

Nice to see somebody else doesn't use the whole line.

[bighurt4life]

Both are young, both are talented, and both showed us that they have what it takes to succeed in the MLB. The question is whether or not they can do it for a full season. That being said, what is KW supposed to do? Question whether or not his guys are good enough, he's got to support them in public unwaveringly.

[sox-r-us]

Here's to hoping Kenny is right about the pitching....that is really our only chance to stay in contention with the Tigers.

 

 

Spring training cannot get here faster now that the Bears are done.

 

One more factor to consider while discussing starting pitching: Kenny & Ozzie have said they are going to try a different approach in ST this year where they give all 5 starters the job all the way through (something like what St Louis did)....I hope that helps us out

 

I actually have lots of optimism for Count....I think he bounces back fine. He definitely had injury/mechanics issues last year which I do not think will be an issue this year. Now if only one out of Danks and Floyd can become a consistent/solid pitcher next year, we have a good enough staff.

[beck72]

Whether or not Danks and Floyd can be #1-3 starters is besides the point going into 2008. They need to be effective in the 4th and 5th spots. KW's "hype" is another man's confidence booster. Danks and Floyd can read KW's and Ozzie's comments about not worrying about the starting pitching and continue working out getting ready for the season. If both Danks and Floyd "trust their stuff" ie not nibbling, attacking hitters, not walking guys, they should be fine. My only concern is if they tire late in the year after racking up innings in the bigs. Yet Gio should be ready by late 2008 to come up if needed. Gio's not a bad backup plan. Not to mention Egbert or Broadway as 2nd or 3rd choices.

[max power]

Floyd pitched 170 some innings last year and looked dominant at the end of the year. I'm not worried about him tiring. I think he is going to shock a lot of people and have himself a good year.

 

As for Danks, I agree. I don't see him pitching that many innings for whatever reason.

[SoxPride56]

As I think others in this discussion have said, I am not worried about Danks and Floyd as our number 4 and 5 starters, what I am worried about is Jose being our number 3 starter.

[beck72]

As I think others in this discussion have said, I am not worried about Danks and Floyd as our number 4 and 5 starters, what I am worried about is Jose being our number 3 starter.

I'd be more worried if Jose completely changed how he threw ala Freddy Garcia. When Jose threw at the end of 2007, it was w/ the same zip he had when he was one of the best SP's in the bigs. If the sox are in playoff contention, IMO, Jose will be pitching better than a #3.

[southsideirish71]

I'd be more worried if Jose completely changed how he threw ala Freddy Garcia. When Jose threw at the end of 2007, it was w/ the same zip he had when he was one of the best SP's in the bigs. If the sox are in playoff contention, IMO, Jose will be pitching better than a #3.

 

The count is a real simple formula. You can pretty much tell what kind of outing he will have based on his arm slot versus righties. If he is mainly arm slot high, dropping down on 2 strikes to put the hitter away he will be good; if he is mainly side arm to righties, he will get rocked. Hopefully the Count is energized and is working out his lower half and his back. I still believe that there was a back issue last year, there is no reason for a pitcher to completely change his mechanics this far into ones career unless you are compensating for an injury. Dropping down is a classic back or leg stress reliever. I would rather see him up top more so he can get more of a downward action on his splitter and keep his fastball within the zone. If he does that, he should be a pretty good pitcher.

[Colorado Sox Fan]

I'm worried about all of our starters. MB and Vasquez have had some rough stretches of their own in recent years. I

[lostfan]

I kind of like Danks, his stuff, the way he goes after hitters and stays composed... I dunno, maybe I'm the only one left. His pitching style was influenced by Buehrle, although obviously he doesn't have the stuff of a Buehrle. And for the first half of the year his numbers were affected by the bizarrely pathetic defense he was getting. But... yeah too many homers. And that's why he's still a back-of-the-rotation pitcher. If he can work that out he'll be really good... but that's not something you can just fix overnight.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

The Board certainly deserves a share of blame given that Kenny is taking probably more than he should. That said, Kenny has been more talk than walk

[CanOfCorn]

The Board certainly deserves a share of blame given that Kenny is taking probably more than he should. That said, Kenny has been more talk than walk

 

I don't think so...he's been in on all the targets he has wanted. He was outbid twice and out-ego'd the other. Hunter's contract is ridiculous and Kenny woulda been flamed for signing him for that. The Sox didn't want the D-Train and the Tiggers snapped them both up, also for a hefty sum. And Fukudome wanted to be the first Japanese player on a team and play RF.

[ptatc]

The count is a real simple formula. You can pretty much tell what kind of outing he will have based on his arm slot versus righties. If he is mainly arm slot high, dropping down on 2 strikes to put the hitter away he will be good; if he is mainly side arm to righties, he will get rocked. Hopefully the Count is energized and is working out his lower half and his back. I still believe that there was a back issue last year, there is no reason for a pitcher to completely change his mechanics this far into ones career unless you are compensating for an injury. Dropping down is a classic back or leg stress reliever. I would rather see him up top more so he can get more of a downward action on his splitter and keep his fastball within the zone. If he does that, he should be a pretty good pitcher.

 

Dropping down can also be a compensation for shoulder pain. When the humeral head rides up and compresses into the acromion the rotator cuff, bursa and labrum become pinched. If a pitcher starts to drop down there is usually an injury to one of these tissues. However since JC as always had this in his arsenal I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Dropping down also decreases pitch velocity while increasing lateral movement on the pitch, this becomes the slider injury to the elbow. In retrospect I think this is what happened to Garcia.

[CanOfCorn]

Dropping down can also be a compensation for shoulder pain. When the humeral head rides up and compresses into the acromion the rotator cuff, bursa and labrum become pinched. If a pitcher starts to drop down there is usually an injury to one of these tissues. However since JC as always had this in his arsenal I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Dropping down also decreases pitch velocity while increasing lateral movement on the pitch, this becomes the slider injury to the elbow. In retrospect I think this is what happened to Garcia.

And if you do it too much...well, just look at your avatar.

[bmags]

Dropping down can also be a compensation for shoulder pain. When the humeral head rides up and compresses into the acromion the rotator cuff, bursa and labrum become pinched. If a pitcher starts to drop down there is usually an injury to one of these tissues. However since JC as always had this in his arsenal I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Dropping down also decreases pitch velocity while increasing lateral movement on the pitch, this becomes the slider injury to the elbow. In retrospect I think this is what happened to Garcia.

 

oh, yeah.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

When I said Board, I obviously meant the one with Jerry Reinsdorf not this one, haha. Anyways, these contracts are not ridiculous. All of us, myself included, need to stop looking at 2007 contracts in 2004 terms. Its a new day in MLB