Mitchell Report Thread

[iamshack]

Ah, okay, I was treating them all as major leaguers. But if we replace the numerator with the number of named players who ever played in the majors, should be correct, right?

 

I thought 5% was too high, too. But the calculation looks right...

 

Edit: Are you sure some of these guys were career minor leaguers (as in, never even sniffed the majors)? I was looking at the NYTimes list, which calls them "former and active Major League Baseball players". I counted 78 names (quickly).

 

No, what I am saying is that some were "mostly career minor leaguers," meaning that many of them were guys who spent the majority of their careers in the minor leagues.

 

What I was getting at was that you used 26 as an average for players per team. Yet many of these guys were players who had "short stints" in the major leagues, with many different teams, which implies that they were called-up when someone hit the DL, or after the September 1 expansion to the 40-man roster. I think that 26 is not a high enough number considering the expansion of rosters in September.

 

Considering the number of these guys that were primarily career minor leaguers, I think many of them were not steady guys on the 25-man roster. I don't know what a better number would be to use for players/team, but I would think it should be higher than 26.

[Flash Tizzle]

Good luck with that happening. Everyone close to the organization, including people in the media, know just how tight mcNamee was with Roger and everyone knows how tight Pettite and Roger are. The stuff in there is pretty damn concrete if you ask me and I'm glad to see Roger finally paying the price.

 

He deserves as much s*** as Barry has gotten over the years. In fact he deserves it times 10 since Barry has had to put up with about 6 years of it by now (deservingly so for the most part). Barry Bonds isn't any different than Rocket....whooo.

 

I still would pay money to see either of them play the game at there prime though

Yet, on ESPN I'm hearing people talk about 'unsubstantiated rumors by a man under threat of federal imprisonment.' No one has bothered to mention the close ties both have had with McNamee, either.

 

LET'S WAIT AND SEE WHAT CLEMENS' CAMP HAS TO SAY!!!1

[MurcieOne]

Yet, on ESPN I'm hearing people talk about 'unsubstantiated rumors by a man under threat of federal imprisonment.' No one has bothered to mention the close ties both have had with McNamee, either.

 

LET'S WAIT AND SEE WHAT CLEMENS' CAMP HAS TO SAY!!!1

 

Clemens' Lawyer has come out and denied the allegations

[jackie hayes]

No, what I am saying is that some were "mostly career minor leaguers," meaning that many of them were guys who spent the majority of their careers in the minor leagues.

 

What I was getting at was that you used 26 as an average for players per team. Yet many of these guys were players who had "short stints" in the major leagues, with many different teams, which implies that they were called-up when someone hit the DL, or after the September 1 expansion to the 40-man roster. I think that 26 is not a high enough number considering the expansion of rosters in September.

 

Considering the number of these guys that were primarily career minor leaguers, I think many of them were not steady guys on the 25-man roster. I don't know what a better number would be to use for players/team, but I would think it should be higher than 26.

Hmm... Roster expansion only covers a short part of the season, and most teams don't call up more than a handful of players, so I thought 26 was reasonable.

 

It's NOT right (for example) to use the total number of players who play for a team during a year -- those players with short careers bring down the average career length, so that's already accounted for. I was thinking of a world where every player has exactly the average-length career, and then the roster rolls over completely. Obviously this isn't what happens, but because we're only concerned with the total number of players, that shouldn't change the calculation.

[iamshack]

Hmm... Roster expansion only covers a short part of the season, and most teams don't call up more than a handful of players, so I thought 26 was reasonable.

 

It's NOT right (for example) to use the total number of players who play for a team during a year -- those players with short careers bring down the average career length, so that's already accounted for. I was thinking of a world where every player has exactly the average-length career, and then the roster rolls over completely. Obviously this isn't what happens, but because we're only concerned with the total number of players, that shouldn't change the calculation.

 

I think your equation is incorrect then. I am not a mathematician, so I can't even begin to create a new equation for you, but I can guarantee you, of every player who made it to the big leagues for 1 day from 1994-2007, this list does not encompass 4.8% of those names.

 

I think you should throw out the career average, and instead, try to find the total number of players on major league rosters from those respective years. That would seem to be far more accurate.

 

My guess would be 2.5-3 % of all players during the respective time period were listed in the report.

 

After reading the report, my guess of all players to have ever tried steroids or hgh during that time period to enhance performance would be 15-20%.

Edited December 13, 2007 by iamshack

[jackie hayes]

I think your equation is incorrect then. I am not a mathematician, so I can't even begin to create a new equation for you, but I can guarantee you, of every player who made it to the big leagues for 1 day from 1994-2007, this list does not encompass 4.8% of those names.

 

I think you should throw out the career average, and instead, try to find the total number of players on major league rosters from those respective years. That would seem to be far more accurate.

Yeah, it would be more accurate. It'd also be a LOT more work...

 

It may have to do with the career length. A career of one month could be categorized as a year, 1.5 years as two years, etc. Or a guy who plays in the majors one year, plays in the minors for two, then gets called up for a week in the next season, could have a "4 year career". That would make the average much higher than it should be.

 

I like back of the envelope calculations so much better...

[Balta1701]

Fehr speaking now

[fathom]

Paul Lo Duca is really in the middle of all this. His name just went from team leader to team cheater.

 

He was one of the most despised players in baseball prior to today.....

[fathom]

I'm so happy Roberts was in this report. Have fun planning that trade now Cubbies.

[RockRaines]

I think it's interesting that nearly everyone who has posted thus far has implied a very negative reaction or stance towards the players who have used steroids.

 

I've commented several times in this thread that the owners, upper-level execs, and managers were fully aware of exactly what was going on in most instances.

 

And yet I've not commented positively or negatively regarding the players. And I won't, because I think this subject is enormously complex.

 

Why are the players the one's taking such a huge hit here? Why not the rest of the baseball industry? Why so harsh to judge the players, and no one else?

The owners didnt write personal checks for the roids and inject the substances into the player's butts.

[RockRaines]

But honestly, ask yourself these questions:

 

1) Why were some players cheating?

 

2) What would motivate a player to do so?

 

3) If I could do something in the context of my profession (in terms of HGH), in which I would not immediately be caught (or caught at all), and could very likely result in a drastic pay raise, could result in my family and friends being financially taken care of for life, would I do so?

 

4) If others in my profession were "cheating," thereby making it more difficult (or even in some cases impossible) for me to be compensated according to my true value, would I be tempted to cheat as well? Would I cheat?

 

This is far more complex than merely blaming the players for cheating. So much more was at stake- and that which was at stake was because of the fault of the managers, the GM's, the Owners, etc. I find it overly simplistic to simply cast the majority of the blame on the players.

 

The entire baseball industry deserves to be blamed equally, IMO. Certainly players such as Frank Thomas and others deserve praise. But I don't believe that the players who used steroids or HGH should be the only ones cast in the spotlight created by the Mitchell Report.

You would have fit in great at Enron, or maybe Arthur Anderson.

[Balta1701]

Fehr stays vague, praising the current testing regime, subtly taking digs at the fact that Selig appointed Mitchell without consulting him and noting that he hadn't reviewed the document before it was released. He sort of asked people to keep an open mind and evaluate the evidence. Did not go strongly against anything. Press conference part starting now, it'd be terrible if no one asked whether or not he'll be open to re-negotiating the CBA again on Mitchell's reccomendations.

[RockRaines]

I bet the Mitchell Report didn't catch all users either...pretty much just those who went through Radomski.

Basically 2 suppliers out of many. There are even more foreign suppliers, think the Latin America drug trade, think about bringing them in through Canada. Several players have been quoted that they thought around 40-50 percent of all players were juicing.

[Balta1701]

Woot.

Following the release Thursday of former Sen. George Mitchell's report on steroid use in Major League Baseball, Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), the chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, has said he will call baseball commissioner Bud Selig, former Sen. Mitchell, and the president of the players association, Don Fehr, to testify before Congress on Dec. 18.

 

Below is Chairman Henry A. Waxman and Ranking Minority Member Tom Davis of the House Oversight committee's statement:

 

This is a sad day for Major League Baseball but a good day for integrity in sports. It's an important step towards the goal of eliminating the use of performance enhancing substances.

 

The Mitchell report is sobering. It shows the use of steroids and human growth hormone has been and is a significant problem in Major League Baseball. And it shows that everyone involved in Major League Baseball bears some responsibility for this scandal.

 

We are going to ask Senator George Mitchell, Commissioner Bud Selig, and the President of the Major League Players Association, Don Fehr, to testify at a House Oversight and Government Reform hearing on Tuesday, December 18. We look forward to their testimony on whether the Mitchell report's recommendations will be adopted and whether additional measures are needed.

 

We want to commend Commissioner Selig for authorizing this investigation and thank Senator Mitchell for his dedication to this effort.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm so happy Roberts was in this report. Have fun planning that trade now Cubbies.

Realistically it could lower his trade value and allow the Cubs to get a pretty solid player for a lot less. The O's had a lot of players associated with steroids so I'm guessing they will try to do the PR thing and get rid of a chunk of them. I wouldn't have a problem picking up Roberts.

 

Heck out of all the names on the list, the evidence against him wasn't near as incriminating as everyone else. It sounds like he tried it and that was it.

[RockRaines]

I'd still like Roberts on the cheap.

[Rowand44]

Has Fernando Vina been on today by chance? I'd love to hear that.

[witesoxfan]

Clemens' Lawyer has come out and denied the allegations

 

He can deny all he wants, the court of public opinion views him guilty as s***.

[StrangeSox]

The owners didnt write personal checks for the roids and inject the substances into the player's butts.

 

BS. Steinberner tackled Clemens and had Cashman shoot him in the butt on a weekly basis!

 

A majority of the blame goes on the people who actually committed the crimes and who willingly injected themselves. How about some personal responsibility?

[chiguy79]

one of the most interesting things mitchell said was that the potential of using/having used steroids was a tool used by scouts and team officials in assessing players

 

Clearly everyone in baseball had a hand in what was going on.

 

There was also the notes about the Red Sox talking about Gagne's roid use when acquiring him.

 

 

My biggest issue is with the players lack of cooperation. The Players Association is just not good for baseball in that they don't rectify things and won't give up any rights without owners giving up something in return. That is why we have Congress stepping in to fix the issue for them.

[Rowand44]

Clemens is a big fat phony.

[chiguy79]

If the feds caught more insiders supplying the roids and HGH I am sure the list of players would be five times as long. I wouldn't be surprised if the real # is >50% of players.

 

Dusty Baker was clearly dealing the roids in SF.

[Vance Law]

If the feds caught more insiders supplying the roids and HGH I am sure the list of players would be five times as long. I wouldn't be surprised if the real # is >50% of players.

 

Dusty Baker was clearly dealing the roids in SF.

 

Yeah, it seems to me the number was huge. The majority of the info comes from only one guy (Random-ski).

 

Look at how many of the times the only way hard evidence was found was because of some bonehead move like, so and so left a bag full of steroids in the locker room and the janitor found it. Or someone had a package delivered to the clubhouse. Juan Gonzalez duffel bag was stopped by customs in Toronto- Juan, you only go to Toronto- what, twice a year? Leave the steroids at home for a week, buddy. The only ones we know about here are the most egregious examples of boneheadery. If you were a steroid user with at least 3rd-grade level intelligence and showed just a modicum of discretion (also don't write personal checks, fellas) you would not have been found out in this unless your supplier (Radomski) testified.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Vance Law

[NorthSideSox72]

OK this is funny. Jose Canseco tried to enter the press conference, and was turned away by MLB officials.

 

Canseco claims he just happened to be staying in the same hotel as the press conference.

 

[Steve9347]

I'd still like Roberts on the cheap.

Me too. What he did last year was without steroids. I feel that he did the roids between the 04-05 offseason when he started so hot.

 

Sure, he's kept some of the muscle, but expecting a decline from last year when I believe he was clean might be unreasonable.