still plan in place accorind cowley

[Kalapse]

I would really like to know why a lot of people are against getting Crisp.

Because he's brutal offensively and the Red Sox will not give him away for free. Because I think it's f***ing retarded to give your worst or maybe second worst hitter the most plate appearances of anyone in your lineup. Because putting a .320 or .330 OBP hitter in front of Thome, Konerko and Dye is only going to make it harder for this team to score runs. Because I don't think Crisp will provide anything over the next 2 years that the Sox couldn't get from an Owens/Anderson (possibly Sweeney) platoon at a fraction of the price. Because the thought giving up young talent for a mediocre baseball player like Crisp makes my head hurt.

[Kalapse]

Because that .320-something OBP, .260's AVG and .383 SLG in his last 2 seasons is pretty unspectacular.

 

But, he may recover his CLE form. Talking to some Red Sox fans, he actually started pretty well there two, but didn't recover well in 2006 after an injury to his hand. If that's the case, and he's healthy now, maybe he'll come back. The CLE version - near .300 hitter with some power and speed - would be a nice addition.

 

Which will show up?

You don't give up any more young talent for a guy who you're hoping will return to the player he was 3 years ago especially when said player is not nearly good enough to turn this team around.

[kwolf68]

I would really like to know why a lot of people are against getting Crisp.

 

 

My concern is cost. Boston really is tough to deal with these days. I could see Epstein wanting DLS and another good prospect for Crisp. Probably something like DLS and Sweeney for Crisp is what he'd want. They don't need anything in Boston, Ellsbury is better than Crisp and adding more depth to the minors allows them to stay on top...forever.

 

I wouldn't mind Crisp, but I doubt they'd take a mediocre relief pitcher, which is something we do have somewhat of a surplus of, between Chicago and the minors.

[NorthSideSox72]

You don't give up any more young talent for a guy who you're hoping will return to the player he was 3 years ago especially when said player is not nearly good enough to turn this team around.

I agree. I don't want him either, unless he comes cheap (because he is losing his job anyway). And even then, the 2006-2007 Crisp isn't much better than Owens/Anderson/Sweeney, so you are taking a real chance.

 

[Kalapse]

My concern is cost. Boston really is tough to deal with these days. I could see Epstein wanting DLS and another good prospect for Crisp. Probably something like DLS and Sweeney for Crisp is what he'd want. They don't need anything in Boston, Ellsbury is better than Crisp and adding more depth to the minors allows them to stay on top...forever.

 

I wouldn't mind Crisp, but I doubt they'd take a mediocre relief pitcher, which is something we do have somewhat of a surplus of, between Chicago and the minors.

Definitely agree, it makes no sense for this team to give up any more young talent for a reclamation project. If Epstein would take Masset for Crisp then I'd probably do it but if the asking price is anything more than one of our many AAAA relief pitchers (which it definitely is) then I'd much rather just go with the 3 young guys out there next year.

[wbicker2424]

Definitely agree, it makes no sense for this team to give up any more young talent for a reclamation project. If Epstein would take Masset for Crisp then I'd probably do it but if the asking price is anything more than one of our many AAAA relief pitchers (which it definitely is) then I'd much rather just go with the 3 young guys out there next year.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't want to trade for Crisp. I am not anti-Crisp, but anything over the cost of a AAAA reliever is too much for this organization to give up for him. Our system is not overflowing with elite prospects, therefore we either need to keep them and hope they pan out, or use them in a trade for an high impact player, which is not Coco Crisp, Juan Pierre or anything like that.

[The Critic]

I see Owens as a bench player long term, but I would have a real hard time making the argument that Owens couldn't match the numbers Crisp has put up the last two years in Boston.

 

Don't trade for something you probably already have on the roster.

I agree.

At this point, it doesn't make sense to me to give up players to get someone who should be marginally better than someone you already have.

I'd much rather Kenny try to find a reliable starter than acquire Coco Crisp. If you're going to give up prospects, get pitching for them.

[TheKillerB's]

So let me get this straight, instead of having the lineup of

SS Orlando Cabrera

CF Torii Hunter

3B Miguel Cabrera

DH Jim Thome

1B Paul Konerko

RF Jermaine Dye

C AJ Pierzynski

LF Carlos Quentin

2B Danny Richar

 

We're stuck with

CF Jerry Owens

SS Orlando Cabrera

DH Jim Thome

1B Paul Konerko

RF Jermaine Dye

C AJ Pierzynski

3B Josh Fields

LF Carlos Quentin

2B Danny Richar

 

And people are still saying that Kenny Williams deserves to keep his job?

[Leonard Zelig]

So let me get this straight, instead of having the lineup of

SS Orlando Cabrera

CF Torii Hunter

3B Miguel Cabrera

DH Jim Thome

1B Paul Konerko

RF Jermaine Dye

C AJ Pierzynski

LF Carlos Quentin

2B Danny Richar

 

We're stuck with

CF Jerry Owens

SS Orlando Cabrera

DH Jim Thome

1B Paul Konerko

RF Jermaine Dye

C AJ Pierzynski

3B Josh Fields

LF Carlos Quentin

2B Danny Richar

 

And people are still saying that Kenny Williams deserves to keep his job?

 

 

Yeah, winter just flew by didn't it?

[TheKillerB's]

Regardless of if its over or not, he said this was his plan, and you cant deny that he didnt fail at accomplishing his offseason plan

[southsideirish]

So let me get this straight, instead of having the lineup of

SS Orlando Cabrera

CF Torii Hunter

3B Miguel Cabrera

DH Jim Thome

1B Paul Konerko

RF Jermaine Dye

C AJ Pierzynski

LF Carlos Quentin

2B Danny Richar

 

We're stuck with

CF Jerry Owens

SS Orlando Cabrera

DH Jim Thome

1B Paul Konerko

RF Jermaine Dye

C AJ Pierzynski

3B Josh Fields

LF Carlos Quentin

2B Danny Richar

 

And people are still saying that Kenny Williams deserves to keep his job?

 

This is getting insane. What did you want him to do, spend 20 million for 5 years on Torii Hunter? We don't have the prospects to get a Miguel Cabrera. What the hell did you want him to do? Come on!

[southsideirish]

Regardless of if its over or not, he said this was his plan, and you cant deny that he didnt fail at accomplishing his offseason plan

 

So tell us how you would have accomplished it. He did everything in his power to accomplish it. What would you have done differently to get these deals done?

[SpringfieldFan]

So tell us how you would have accomplished it. He did everything in his power to accomplish it. What would you have done differently to get these deals done?

 

If it is as farfetched to accomplish it as it appears, it probably isn't wise to present it or approach it as a "plan". To me that implies it is something like a checklist which would be reasonably feasible to accomplish. If it wasn't so feasible, they shouldn't get our hopes up by presenting it as a plan. At least call it a dream if that's what it really is, and for heaven's sake have safety net lined up if the miracle doesn't materialize. If Jerry Owens is Williams' definition of a safety net, we have more problems than I even imagined.

 

SFF

Edited December 15, 2007 by SpringfieldFan

[TheKillerB's]

If it is as farfetched to accomplish it as it appears, it probably isn't wise to present it or approach it as a "plan". To me that implies it is something like a checklist which would be reasonably feasible to accomplish. If it wasn't so feasible, they shouldn't get our hopes up by presenting it as a plan. At least call it a dream if that's what it really is, and for heaven's sake have safety net lined up if the miracle doesn't materialize. If Jerry Owens is Williams' definition of a safety net, we have more problems than I even imagined.

 

SFF

 

Exactly, what is the point of "exposing" KW's plan after he failed to fulfill it? Should we as fans not be upset about how this offseason has gone so far? Stories/articles like this one are meant to give an insight to the fans as to how the GM planned on going about improving the team and when all is said and done if this so called 'plan' was not accomplished how can you not fault the man behind the plan?

 

Attack me as you will, but this off season so far has been beyond unacceptable. All the Sox are left with are a couple of precursor moves (4 years of Linebrink and a 33 year old SS) to this so called 'plan' to show for this off season. If this plan was so far fetched as most of you believe it was, then how did Kenny not see this in the first place. There must have been some glimmer of hope in his GM brain to believe that he could indeed accomplish these moves.

[TheKillerB's]

So tell us how you would have accomplished it. He did everything in his power to accomplish it. What would you have done differently to get these deals done?

 

Nothing absolutely nothing, but if its as apparent to you that these were some lofty goals why set them in the first place? Might as well have gunned for Arod at short and Johan while he was at it. Do you think KW actually went into the offseason believing he could acquire all of those players? Because I sure do and thats why I'm calling for him to lose his job.

[Frankensteiner]

So tell us how you would have accomplished it. He did everything in his power to accomplish it. What would you have done differently to get these deals done?

 

Whether or not these deals could or couldn't be done is irrelavent. Kenny Williams, knowing our payroll and prospect situation, thought he had enough to get both deals done. That was his plan. It's not necessarily his fault another team outbid him for Hunter or gave up more prospects for Cabrera, but he should have seen those possibilities coming. So it remains to be seen if Williams swung and missed on a couple of deals or got caught with his pants down. The former is excusable but the latter is not. He's still got time to get some things done.

 

The problem now is the free agent market has dried up in terms of impact players and, unlike Cabrera, I can't think of many players available through trade who would really be worth giving up our best prospects.

[Chisoxfn]

So you're ok with the GM coming up WAY short on his plan for the off-season? He knew they were lofty goals, yet he set them. He was the one who put together the 72-90 team, so he needed to have lofty goals. He is also the one that assembled the farm system, that just so happened to not have enough ammo to acquire Cabrera.

Williams knows how to talk a huge game. He just doesn't know how to back it up.

The worse parrt is that it seemed like that was the only way this team could compete (by coming through on what was very, almost ridiculous expectations of an off-season) and even than you can say the team would have serious concerns around the rotation.

 

Bottom line, Kenny put himself in the position as soon as he signed Mark/Dye to extensions that he was going for it and it was going to take a miracle for it all to work out and barring some sort of major impact from the young players currently on the roster this team will finish in 4th place and Ken Williams should absolutely be fired if it happens.

 

Kenny had an opportunity to begin planning for 09 and instead he tried to create a miracle and sometimes you have to know when you can't. When you are looking at the board and getting Cabrera/Hunter/Cabrera/RP is the only way you'd even come close to competing (plus resigning Mark/Dye) than you have to sit and say is that really realistic. And if you think it is and already get going towards that process (which they started at the deadline when they didn't move Mark/Dye) than you must and I mean must overpay to get those final pieces (because otherwise you are totally f'd and are just setting there to go nowhere).

[Vance Law]

The worse parrt is that it seemed like that was the only way this team could compete

 

This team would be in fine shape to compete if Williams did everything exactly as he has, and signed one of the 5 free agent centerfielders, and most importantly Cabrera lands on any team other than Detroit or Cleveland.

 

[bigruss]

Bull.

 

Hunter/Jones/Rowand doesn't make this team a WS contender, it hardly makes them a playoff contender. It puts the Sox at around 115 million in payroll, gives this team an even older, expensive core, and it still leaves them Contreras/Floyd/Danks as the 3-4-5.

 

"Fine shape to compete" isn't exactly how I would describe the situation.

I think he meant for third place in the Central...

[Vance Law]

Bull.

 

Hunter/Jones/Rowand doesn't make this team a WS contender, it hardly makes them a playoff contender. It puts the Sox at around 115 million in payroll, gives this team an even older, expensive core, and it still leaves them Contreras/Floyd/Danks as the 3-4-5.

 

"Fine shape to compete" isn't exactly how I would describe the situation.

 

Bull.

If you are in the playoffs, you are a World Series contender. My point was that that team could compete for 1st or 2nd in the Central.

A lineup that includes Thome, Konerko, Dye, Hunter/Jones or whoever, Fields, Quentin and Orlando has the potential to be excellent.

With Danks and Contreras having not-good years last year, our rotation still had a better ERA than Detroit's, and that's without adjusting for the park. With all of the luck, chance, and randomness that affect baseball, that team can compete with Detroit and Cleveland for a playoff spot(s). Are Ordonez, Polanco, Renteria, and Granderson going to have years as good as last year? How about Sabathia and Carmona? How did the 06 Indians only win 78 games? How did Arizona win 90 games last year with a negative run differential?

Edited December 17, 2007 by Vance Law

[Chisoxfn]

Bull.

If you are in the playoffs, you are a World Series contender. My point was that that team could compete for 1st or 2nd in the Central.

A lineup that includes Thome, Konerko, Dye, Hunter/Jones or whoever, Fields, Quentin and Orlando has the potential to be excellent.

With Danks and Contreras having not-good years last year, our rotation still had a better ERA than Detroit's, and that's without adjusting for the park. With all of the luck, chance, and randomness that effect baseball, that team can compete with Detroit and Cleveland for a playoff spot(s). Are Ordonez, Polanco, Renteria, and Granderson going to have years as good as last year? How about Sabathia and Carmona? How did the 06 Indians only win 78 games? How did Arizona win 90 games last year with a negative run differential?

You are flat out indicating how Arizona had luck on there side to a large extent and than are expecting Danks/Contreras to have better seasons. I don't know if that is realistic in Contreras case since he could very well fall apart. You are also forgetting that Jon Garland was a big reason to that ERA, in fact a huge reason, and you are replacing him with Gavin Floyd who is as big of a questionmark as Danks/Contreras. I still think Contreras is the biggest questionmark and I think it is a joke the Sox aren't shopping him (well based on rumors, I can't actually guarantee that).

 

So you are going to go out and pray/hope that three of your starters come in and pitch way better than they ever have. Danks/Floyd are capable of doing it, but it is unrealistic to expect them to be super good as neither of them is truly 100% ready for major league success. They aren't Justin Verlander type guys. They both have good arms and should have solid careers (especially Danks) but they are the type of guys that will take a year or two of major league development to really turn things around (and Danks could very well be above league average this year, but to hope all three of those guys are even league average is way unrealistic).

 

Offensively that lineup has good power but still absolute s*** at the top of the order which will have an impact (whether people like it or not). So bottom line I would compare the team a bit more to the 2006 Sox and prior Sox (Jerry Manuel Sox) in the sense that those teams would slug and just hope to god the pitching would be there (the one difference is those 2000 Sox squads had young players that were still really developing...Thomas was pretty much the only true vet those years that was a significant producer in those offenses).

 

I'm not saying that the lineup you are proposing doesn't end up making the playoffs, it could, but there is a lot of luck involved, imo. There is luck in anything, you are right, but had you traded guys for major league ready top prospects and used the money to sign a couple guys (or trade for a couple guys and than sign...such as Mcab) that you felt could help you in 08, 09 and beyond than I think you could also have had a couple lucky breaks (with guys developing early) and turned into a contender in 08 and you'd ALSO be in a spot to contend in FUTURE YEARS.

[whitesoxfan101]

There is nothing this team could have done this offseason to be good enough to compete. Kenny's failure to be able to develop a minor league system, ability to keep signing washed up players and 30 somethings to big extensions, and ability to make a team with 100 million dollars in payroll have more holes than a piece of swiss cheese have killed us before this offseason started.

[elrockinMT]

I think the Sox can compete. Now the real question is can they do more than just hang in there? Garland gone and Contreras still with the team simply amazes me. Jon should have stayed and we signed him to an extension with al that money Reinsdorf is saving. We need a CF'er with a bit of pop and a beter OB% than what we seem to have decided to go with. Fields at 3B and Crede gone, if that's the way it goes, means a 4th or 5th place finish. We need Crede's defense. I could live with Fields in LF for a full year.

[CWSGuy406]

I'll be positive for a second here. So long as the Sox land Cameron, they figure to be a good deal better than last year, despite much of the doom and gloom. As pointed out at a post on SouthSideSox, the Sox were beyond terrible at four (!) positions on the diamond last year -- SS, 3B, LF and CF. I don't think people understand just how terrible we were at those positions. From the link above, Sox left-fielders hit for a .731 OPS last year. From there it only gets worse. Sox shortstops combined for a .659 OPS, Sox third-basemen combined for a .642 OPS and -- shield your eyes -- Sox centerfielders hit for a .628 (//puke -- thanks "Ersty") OPS.

 

With that in mind, you're looking at huge upgrades at each of those four spots, especially if the Sox add Cameron. At shortstop Cabrera figures to be a 40-to-75 point improvement over what we had out there last year; Quentin figures to be a 20-to-50 point upgrade; Fields figures to be a 110-to-160 point upgrade; and if the Sox grab Cameron, that's another .150 point imrovement. Since I don't think the rest of the lineup figures to regress much (maybe Thome, but I'd guess that's made up for in slight improvement from Richar, Dye and Konerko), the Sox are looking at a much better lineup.

 

Obviously I don't mention a whole lot about the pitching -- I'd guess there's regression-to-the-mean for the bullpen (ie better results), but that's probably going to be offset by the loss of Garland.

 

Even with all this, though, I can't see how anyone could say the Sox are a 90-win team. And even 90 wins doesn't get you sniffing the playoffs, so...

[DBAHO]

I'd be willing to sign Cameron on a short - term inflated deal.

 

That's of course if the Sox don't go into the trade route.

 

Cameron's high propensity to K and low BA don't figure to help him that much though in KW's eyes.