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Top of the rotation starters


gosox41

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When KW opens his mouth, like he did the other day, I will hold him to it right or wrong. And I figured I'd post this now while the quote is still fresh and so we don't have a deabtae in September similar to the 'What the definition of 'is' is.

 

KW said are pitching isn't a problem and that Floyd and Danks are top of the rotation starters. First, top of the rotation to me means #1 or 2 type starters. Middle of the rotation would be a #3. Bottom would be #4 and #5. Would you all agree? Second, KW is going for it next year so I assume he means both these guys would pitch as a #1 or #2 next year. Last, based on how this team is currently set up (plus or minus Mike Cameron), we need these guys to pitch like #1 or #2 starters if we're going to stand a chance of contending.

 

So can I expect both guys to live up to the hype next year. Is tha reasonable? When I compare them with other #2 starters is it reasonable to expect both to put at least #2 starters WHIP, K/BB ratio, 200 innings, etc?

 

If not, please all KW defenders speak up now. Because in my world the jury is still out on both guys to say that they both will reach their potential in 2008. I don't think Floyd will ever reach his potential. The potential is high for both guys, no denying that.

 

But I am holding KW to this when he makes statements like this. BOTH guys better pitch well next year. I'm losing patience fast with KW as I think he made a mistake by not rebuilding. So all those years of experience in baseball better pay off better then the hype he poured onto Masset suring SoxFest last year.

 

 

 

Bob

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Only time will tell with these guys. I thought that both of them showed some real potential last season, especially Danks who pitched his way into the rotation at just 21 years old. If he continues to develop he could be something special, as far as Floyd goes, this season is really sink or swim, he had a good last month of the season. If he can carry that momentum over to this season the sky is the limit for him because he has great stuff (he was the #4 overall pick in '01)

 

In summary, sure the potential is there for both guys but KW really tied his wagon to these two guys, if they pull through he'll look like a genius, if they falter, he's going to be in hot water

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QUOTE(gosox41 @ Dec 16, 2007 -> 11:08 PM)
KW said... that Floyd and Danks are top of the rotation starters. First, top of the rotation to me means #1 or 2 type starters. Middle of the rotation would be a #3. Bottom would be #4 and #5. Would you all agree? Second, KW is going for it next year so I assume he means both these guys would pitch as a #1 or #2 next year.

 

Whenever a pitcher is a high first round draft pick, it's reasonable to assume there are scouts that believe he has top of the rotation potential.

 

But I don't think anyone (including KW) expects Danks and Floyd to assume that type of role or responsibility next year.

 

I'll be extremely happy if they just do an average to above average job in the #4-5 slots in 2008.

 

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QUOTE(R.J. @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 03:33 AM)
We have nothing from Gavin Floyd to show us that he's even a capable 5th starter. Outside of two encouraging starts last year, he looked downright ugly.

He had a lot more than 2. He had like 5 of 6 quality starts to end this season or something like that. Now that doesn't mean he's going to be a competent 5th starter this season but he definitely had more than 2 encouraging starts.

 

As for either of them ever being top of the rotation starters, I highly doubt it. I pretty much agree with Wite on this one.

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QUOTE(R.J. @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 03:33 AM)
We have nothing from Gavin Floyd to show us that he's even a capable 5th starter. Outside of two encouraging starts last year, he looked downright ugly.

Actually 7 of his last 10 appearances were excellent. Too bad he didn't pitch more - but Ozzie was still wheeling his crappy veteran middle relievers out there in late September (just like he was having ERstad hitting in the 5 hole in late September).

Gavin got off to a terrible start, getting slaughtered early - he started the 2nd game of that infamoujs double header against the Tiwns and, like everyone else, was shelled.

I don't know if he's a pitcher or not. this is a good year to find out.

 

As for the celings of these guys, I have no idea. But I thought that the point of trading for them is that they had high ceilings (Danks above McCarthy, e.g.)

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Danks has the potential to be a top of the line rotation... If the offense didn't start off horrible last year and gave him run support, He could have easily started the year 6-2.. thats damn good for your rookie season...

 

Floyd looked horrible last year to start the year off... his first 2 or 3 appearances were bad. He was getting shelled out of the bullpen too. But for whatever reason Ozzie put him back out there in september when Danks' arm was tired and he began to struggle and Floyd started to look really good. I think he shut down Detroit twice in september... I think he is our next Jon Garland experiement.. just let him pitch out his problems and develop him until he finally figures it all out.

 

As far as them being top of the rotation starters? Definitley not.. they can easily be a 3-4 in a rotation one day...

 

 

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Well, first off, I think Gavin Floyd has the potential to be a #2 or 3 starter. He certainly has the arm and the stuff. Whether he can ever locate it well enough, and whether he can ever have the mental determination and focus that being an above-average mlb starter remains to be seen. Although he did show flashes last year.

 

Danks has been sort of a disappointment for me thus far, but I try to remind myself that he is still very young. His stuff isn't as good as I had anticipated, but if he can locate his curveball and fastball, I see no reason why he can't be a very solid #2. I don't think he'll ever be a true "ace," but I think he can probably be a #1b or #2 if he can get command of the zone. I envision his ceiling close to Buehlre's. Doesn't mean he'll ever reach it though, as Buehrle has.

 

 

 

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I don't think anyone can say anything about Danks at this point of his career. He's had one nearly full season in the majors. I think he has the ability and cojones to be a 1 or a 2, but really, how many #1 are there? Just because you are the best pitcher on your team, doesn't make you a true #1, right?

 

Floyd...I'm not even going to speculate. I'd love to see him be a #3, if he can, but would be happy to be decent as a #5.

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QUOTE(AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 10:06 AM)
Danks, time will tell.

 

Floyd. For seeing most of his starts in Philly and with the Sox, there is 0.0 chance he's a top 5 talent, let alone top 2.

 

What exactly are you saying here when you mention "top talent?" Are you suggesting in the league, or as a slot in the rotation? Are you arguing he has a 0.0% chance of being a #5 starter?

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QUOTE(GreenSox @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 08:14 AM)
Actually 7 of his last 10 appearances were excellent. Too bad he didn't pitch more - but Ozzie was still wheeling his crappy veteran middle relievers out there in late September (just like he was having ERstad hitting in the 5 hole in late September).

Gavin got off to a terrible start, getting slaughtered early - he started the 2nd game of that infamoujs double header against the Tiwns and, like everyone else, was shelled.

I don't know if he's a pitcher or not. this is a good year to find out.

 

As for the celings of these guys, I have no idea. But I thought that the point of trading for them is that they had high ceilings (Danks above McCarthy, e.g.)

 

That was the only Sox game I made it to this past season, so my view of Floyd will be forever tainted.

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QUOTE(spiderman @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 10:42 AM)
Our #3, #4, and #5 starters are major question marks. Above all other reasons, this is why we're a 4th place team.

And adding Miguel Cabrera and Torii Hunter would not have changed this fact either. And keeping Garland while being stuck with Uribe/Eckstein at short would have solved that problem but reopened the Uribe at SS can of worms. And cost us about $30 million more this season.

 

There was nothing we were going to do this season that would rob us of having question marks. Making every single huge deal that people have wanted here would have still left us sitting as probable outsiders in the AL Central. As far as I'm concerned, almost every deal we've made makes sense in that light.

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QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 12:49 PM)
There was nothing we were going to do this season that would rob us of having question marks. Making every single huge deal that people have wanted here would have still left us sitting as probable outsiders in the AL Central.

 

I totally agree.

 

As much as KW as been ripped on this board, (some deserved, some undeserved) people should give him credit in the fact that he hasn't sold out on our young arms. If there is any way we can compete with the Tigers, Twins and Indians in the future...we need a few from the likes of Danks, Gio, Floyd, Broadway, Egbert, De Los Santos, Poreda to step up and make a contribution to our staff in the future years.

 

Giving young arms the chance to step up can turn a franchise around quicker than most people realize.

Edited by rockren
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QUOTE(spiderman @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 12:42 PM)
Our #3, #4, and #5 starters are major question marks. Above all other reasons, this is why we're a 4th place team.

Detroit's #2, #3, #4, and #5 are question marks and they seem to be the soxtalk favorite to win it all.

 

Well, some of them are even question marks. They are proven below average.

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QUOTE(max power @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 01:19 PM)
Detroit's #2, #3, #4, and #5 are question marks and they seem to be the soxtalk favorite to win it all.

 

Well, some of them are even question marks. They are proven below average.

 

The Tigers gave away too much pitching in Jurrjens and Miller.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very envious of the Tigers and their expectations next year...but they'll wish they had one of those guys when they find out that D-Train can't get anyone out. Not to mention their bullpen is one of the worst in baseball.

 

I expect big things from the Tigers next year, but their potential "Achilles Heel" is obvious.

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I seem to remember Danks being one of those guys who needs a 2nd year to adjust positively at each level. So hopefully there will be good things in store for him this year. I think he could post a 4.40 ERA or so and that would be encouraging at this stage of his development. I'd like to see his K/BB improve a bit more this year. In general, I like Danks. As for Floyd, if he didn't have that top 5 pedigree he wouldn't be in the big leagues. His WHIP's have been atrocious in the bigs and not really good in the minors either. He struggled in the little boy league and I don't think he can handle the AL lineups either

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QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 02:00 PM)
I seem to remember Danks being one of those guys who needs a 2nd year to adjust positively at each level. So hopefully there will be good things in store for him this year. I think he could post a 4.40 ERA or so and that would be encouraging at this stage of his development. I'd like to see his K/BB improve a bit more this year. In general, I like Danks. As for Floyd, if he didn't have that top 5 pedigree he wouldn't be in the big leagues. His WHIP's have been atrocious in the bigs and not really good in the minors either. He struggled in the little boy league and I don't think he can handle the AL lineups either

 

I hope that's the case and he can step it up this year, we need a lot of production out of him.

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