Where did that $75 million go ?

[spiderman]

"You are assuming we had $75 million," said Williams, when asked about the Hunter offer. "We were hoping to get that along the way, and ultimately, [the move] would pay for itself to a large degree. [Chairman] Jerry [Reinsdorf] authorized it, and I appreciate him having the faith in me to go out on a limb, because it took us well above break even.

 

"This is like your personal finances. There has to be a certain amount of fiscal responsibility, otherwise you will put yourself in a situation where you have to do without something that's very vital to the functioning of the house.

 

"Going a couple of years back, if I made some decisions on some of the players people were urging -- it goes back three, four, five years ago -- if I made those decisions in the fashion the public wanted me to do," Williams added, "we would not have been in position years later to extend [an offer to] Konerko or Garland, the first time, or Mark Buehrle.

 

"People say to look at today and only today, but I have to look at where we were and where we are going. You can't take one action and have it prevent you from doing something that might be important to the overall picture. I have not found a way to articulate that point in a way that people understand or accept

 

******

 

I'm getting dizzy from the spinning!

[Balta1701]

Something tells me that money will wind up in an offer to one Miguel Cabrera 2 years from now. If he's not resigned and we don't blow it on some other 33 year old player beforehand.

[southsider2k5]

"You are assuming we had $75 million," said Williams, when asked about the Hunter offer. "We were hoping to get that along the way, and ultimately, [the move] would pay for itself to a large degree. [Chairman] Jerry [Reinsdorf] authorized it, and I appreciate him having the faith in me to go out on a limb, because it took us well above break even.

 

"This is like your personal finances. There has to be a certain amount of fiscal responsibility, otherwise you will put yourself in a situation where you have to do without something that's very vital to the functioning of the house.

 

"Going a couple of years back, if I made some decisions on some of the players people were urging -- it goes back three, four, five years ago -- if I made those decisions in the fashion the public wanted me to do," Williams added, "we would not have been in position years later to extend [an offer to] Konerko or Garland, the first time, or Mark Buehrle.

 

"People say to look at today and only today, but I have to look at where we were and where we are going. You can't take one action and have it prevent you from doing something that might be important to the overall picture. I have not found a way to articulate that point in a way that people understand or accept

 

******

 

I'm getting dizzy from the spinning!

 

He's right. Its not that simple, no matter how simple want to make it seem.

[southsideirish71]

Something tells me that money will wind up in an offer to one Miguel Cabrera 2 years from now. If he's not resigned and we don't blow it on some other 33 year old player beforehand.

 

Dombrowski wont let Cabrera go. They have the financial backing to make a Arod type contract offer to Miguel. If we think he is going to get to FA then we are nuts. Our best chance to get him on the southside has passed, its on to something else.

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Who is he talking about that the fans wanted him to throw money at? Why would it have been OK to break the budget with Torii Hunter but not with Buerhle, Contreras, Dye,Konerko, Vazquez et al? Spin, spin, spin. I'm sick of spin. Its funny he's criticizing the fans for looking "at today only", but wouldn't that have been what he was doing with Hunter? Doesn't he always pop off about winning now? Wasn't it KW who wanted to throw money at Bartolo Colon? Didn't he try to throw a lot of money at Magglio? He is so full of s*** its ridiculous.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Dick Allen

[NorthSideSox72]

Who is he talking about that the fans wanted him to throw money at? Why would it have been OK to break the budget with Torii Hunter but not with Buerhle, Contreras, Dye,Konerko, Vazquez et al? Spin, spin, spin. I'm sick of spin. Its funny he's criticizing the fans for looking "at today only", but wouldn't that have been what he was doing with Hunter? Doesn't he always pop off about winning now?

Did you just compare the contracts of Dye, Konerko and Vaz, all of which were very good deals, to the Hunter lottery winner? And then you say KW is spinning?

 

That is his whole point. I wanted Hunter too, but at that contract, you essentially strangle the organization financially for years. And whether people want to acknowledge it or not, that $75M wasn't some giant stack of cash sitting in a corner with Hunter's jersey on top. Its an investment with some expected return to help pay for itself.

 

[spiderman]

He's right. Its not that simple, no matter how simple want to make it seem.

 

Explain then.

[NorthSideSox72]

Explain then.

Do you own a home? Do you have a mortgage? Or have you ever invested in anything? If you did, you'd get it.

 

[Dick Allen]

Did you just compare the contracts of Dye, Konerko and Vaz, all of which were very good deals, to the Hunter lottery winner? And then you say KW is spinning?

 

That is his whole point. I wanted Hunter too, but at that contract, you essentially strangle the organization financially for years. And whether people want to acknowledge it or not, that $75M wasn't some giant stack of cash sitting in a corner with Hunter's jersey on top. Its an investment with some expected return to help pay for itself.

So on one hand he was willing to strangle the team for years to get Hunter, but since he didn't accept, the contracts he's already doled out have strangled the team from adding payroll. Then he goes into the "fans want instant gratification and don't look at the big picture talk" when he traded a cheap young CF and 2 decent pitchers for what would be an expensive 5th starter in 2006. Once again, I ask which players did the fans clamour to have and complained about not getting which enable KW to bring back most of an aging 90 loss $108 million payroll team?

[NorthSideSox72]

So on one hand he was willing to strangle the team for years to get Hunter, but since he didn't accept, the contracts he's already doled out have strangled the team from adding payroll. Then he goes into the "fans want instant gratification and don't look at the big picture talk" when he traded a cheap young CF and 2 decent pitchers for what would be an expensive 5th starter in 2006. Once again, I ask which players did the fans clamour to have and complained about not getting which enable KW to bring back most of an aging 90 loss $108 million payroll team?

No... he was willing to pay $15M a year for 4 or 5 years, not $18M a year for 5. This is what he was getting at - its easy to say "spend every dime" when you don't see what that does to the organization. Its counterproductive at some point - the only question is, where is that point?

 

[elrockinMT]

Sure we understand Kenny. It would be better if the Sox management would just not say anything about who they want, etc, and then have it blow up in their faces like it always seems to do. If we are a cheap-broke-small market team then just accept that and quit talking. We will be fighting KC for the basement next season.

[Dick Allen]

No... he was willing to pay $15M a year for 4 or 5 years, not $18M a year for 5. This is what he was getting at - its easy to say "spend every dime" when you don't see what that does to the organization. Its counterproductive at some point - the only question is, where is that point?

He's talking about the $75 million which is $15 million a year. People are assuming that's what he has to play with now, and he's saying it isn't. He's the guy that always says every dime that comes it goes out. I have no problem with the White Sox payroll, I do have a problem with the way KW spins it and then goes into the "if I did what the public wanted" garbage. He has an older team with a $108 million payroll that came pretty darn close to being the worst team in baseball last year. Its time he got off the high horse.

[Soxbadger]

How are the Sox a cheap broke small market team with a payroll in the top 5?

 

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/sa....aspx?year=2007

 

People just are not happy with anything.

 

In 2004 the payroll was $65mil.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1778397

 

In 3 years the White Sox increased their payroll by $40mil (almost 200%) and yet fans are still not happy. They still want to say that the Sox dont spend the money.

 

I call bulls***.

 

As of today the Sox have the 1-2 highest payroll in the AL Central. They probably have the 5-6th highest payroll in all of the AL.

 

HOW IS THAT CHEAP?

 

Or is anyone that doesnt spend Boston or NYY money cheap?

 

DA,

 

What else can Williams say?

 

Clearly some of these fans would only be happy if the Sox spent money like Boston or NYY, which would probably bankrupt the entire organization in less than 5 years, regardless of the time of cash influx from attendance.

 

These people do not understand you cant just spend spend spend and then start a new franchise in MVP when you ruined its financial outlook.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Soxbadger

[NorthSideSox72]

He's talking about the $75 million which is $15 million a year. People are assuming that's what he has to play with now, and he's saying it isn't. He's the guy that always says every dime that comes it goes out. I have no problem with the White Sox payroll, I do have a problem with the way KW spins it and then goes into the "if I did what the public wanted" garbage. He has an older team with a $108 million payroll that came pretty darn close to being the worst team in baseball last year. Its time he got off the high horse.

Again, finance doesn't work the way you seem to see it. He both does, and does not, have that money to play with. What he has is license to plow back earnings into player personnel, but also to do so on a forward-looking basis. He can spend a lot on the right player if there is payoff in that. He doesn't just have some stack of money to blow. JR has always said that the Sox are a basically break-even operation, and that is still true. Therefore, yes there are limits to spending, but those limits can be stretched in return for later returns. That does NOT mean that money for future years can simply go out the door.

 

[iamshack]

I think it IS simple. People just refuse to believe their position, or to understand their position.

 

And when he refers to "people," I don't think he means only the fans. I think he means the Chicago media, and especially, Jay Mariotti. And as I have posted again and again over the past year, these are the people that educate our fans for the most part. And this is the reason that our fans continue to misunderstand the situation.

 

The White Sox spend plenty of money- particularly, they are willing to spend it on their own players- those that have proven to be durable, effective team players. They've extended contracts to SEVERAL veterans over the past 3-4 seasons, and yet, from what we hear from the media (and then this trickles down to our fans) is that we don't spend money. As if the likes of Mark Buehrle, Paul Konerko, Javy Vazquez, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, AJ Pierzynski, Jose Contreras, and in the past, Jon Garland are not counting against our payroll or something.

 

This team as currently constructed, is composed of a number of solid veteran players that earn substantial sums of money. Several of them have been resigned at the behest of fans (and likely, because the org wished to as well), and yet. these very same fans and media subsequently claim that the organization is cheap and refuses to pay any free agents. Well, it cannot always be both ways. You cannot keep every productive player who comes up through your system, or who has been acquired through a previous deal, AND bring in top shelf free agents, unless you are one of a very few organizations. And this has been spelled out repeatedly over the past few years. And yet, our media and fans seem to refuse to recognize this. Repeatedly refuse.

 

The myths and nonsense spread by the mainstream Chicago media about this organization have corrupted and decayed the truth about the manner in which the White Sox operate to the point where it is no longer accurately recognizeable. To illustrate that point, when the organization DOES push the envelope financially to attempt to improve the team through free agency, the media and the fans can no longer see that fact. Instead, they believe that rather than pushing the envelope, the organization was actually opening up it's dusty coffers of unlimited funds Jerry has been hoarding since he became Chairman and principal owner. However, nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

You want the club to operate like the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Angels, Dodgers, Cubs, etc., ? 1) Take a look at their attendanc figures- they go well over 3 million in annual attendance, some close to 4 million; and 2) A few own cable television stations, which generate hundreds of millions of dollars to add to their already large stadium revenue.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Again, finance doesn't work the way you seem to see it. He both does, and does not, have that money to play with. What he has is license to plow back earnings into player personnel, but also to do so on a forward-looking basis. He can spend a lot on the right player if there is payoff in that. He doesn't just have some stack of money to blow. JR has always said that the Sox are a basically break-even operation, and that is still true. Therefore, yes there are limits to spending, but those limits can be stretched in return for later returns. That does NOT mean that money for future years can simply go out the door.

I think I know how finance works. KW is also using the "can't spend $1 if you only have $.50" talk. Considering White Sox attendance figures recently, considering they are raising ticket prices, who is responsible for having a team with as many holes as the White Sox and doesn't have the finances to throw a little money at it? Its funny KW would chastise people like he has all the answers. 1 playoff appearance in 7 years.

[spiderman]

Do you own a home? Do you have a mortgage? Or have you ever invested in anything? If you did, you'd get it.

 

I do have a condo w/mortgage, and a 401K.

[Soxbadger]

I think I know how finance works. KW is also using the "can't spend $1 if you only have $.50" talk. Considering White Sox attendance figures recently, considering they are raising ticket prices, who is responsible for having a team with as many holes as the White Sox and doesn't have the finances to throw a little money at it? Its funny KW would chastise people like he has all the answers. 1 playoff appearance in 7 years.

 

They have increased payroll over $40mil in 4 years.

 

Sorry that they wont be increasing it over $60mil like some think would be wise.

[NorthSideSox72]

I do have a condo w/mortgage, and a 401K.

First, I apologize for my snarky post - that was unnecessary. I just get agitated with this subject. Sorry about that.

 

What I think some people here fail to understand is that while the Sox as a business is basically zero-sum, the player payroll is not. Its an investment account, not a checking account. You can't look at it as if it was just cash in and cash out, year in and year out. The duration of investments comes into play, the impact on not just team performance but also attendance draw, and a whole slew of other factors. Hopefully that is more clear.

 

[iamshack]

So on one hand he was willing to strangle the team for years to get Hunter, but since he didn't accept, the contracts he's already doled out have strangled the team from adding payroll. Then he goes into the "fans want instant gratification and don't look at the big picture talk" when he traded a cheap young CF and 2 decent pitchers for what would be an expensive 5th starter in 2006. Once again, I ask which players did the fans clamour to have and complained about not getting which enable KW to bring back most of an aging 90 loss $108 million payroll team?

 

You want to talk about "spin"? Look at your posts in regards to KW.

 

You're impossible to satisfy. You're the ultimate "in hindsight" guy. You're always nitpicking everything.

 

This team won the World Series in 05'. In 06', it won 90 games. Last year sucked. We ALL know that. But that doesn't mean that the 08' team immediately starts out as a 72-win capable team as currently constructed. There are such things in a season as momentum, cummulative affects, bad-luck, injury, that come together to achieve results which are not necessarily the sum of their parts. I'll be the first to admit it happened in 05' when we won. And it certainly happened last year when we stunk. But just as that 05' team was not 99-win strong in talent, the 07' team was not 90-loss in talent.

 

The whole point is that Kenny felt Hunter for 5/75 was a risk worth taking, but not at 5/90. Why is that difficult to understand? And yes, some of the players that were signed before HAVE strangled the team a bit financially, but that's an amazingly relative situation. Your team CAN be strangled a bit financially if your veterans perform as they ought to. Last year, they did not. But that does not mean they will not again this year. What you're arguing is almost like you do not want Kenny to commit the necessary resources to maximize the team's chances for success. Had we had stacks and stacks of leftover $ with which to spend on other players, you'd be sitting here claiming Kenny is an idiot for not compiling the best team possible.

 

You're just impossible to please. Ever. I actually think sometimes you are Jay Mariotti.

[Gregory Pratt]

You want to talk about "spin"? Look at your posts in regards to KW.

 

You're impossible to satisfy. You're the ultimate "in hindsight" guy. You're always nitpicking everything.

 

This team won the World Series in 05'. In 06', it won 90 games. Last year sucked. We ALL know that. But that doesn't mean that the 08' team immediately starts out as a 72-win capable team as currently constructed. There are such things in a season as momentum, cummulative affects, bad-luck, injury, that come together to achieve results which are not necessarily the sum of their parts. I'll be the first to admit it happened in 05' when we won. And it certainly happened last year when we stunk. But just as that 05' team was not 99-win strong in talent, the 07' team was not 90-loss in talent.

 

The whole point is that Kenny felt Hunter for 5/75 was a risk worth taking, but not at 5/90. Why is that difficult to understand? And yes, some of the players that were signed before HAVE strangled the team a bit financially, but that's an amazingly relative situation. Your team CAN be strangled a bit financially if your veterans perform as they ought to. Last year, they did not. But that does not mean they will not again this year. What you're arguing is almost like you do not want Kenny to commit the necessary resources to maximize the team's chances for success. Had we had stacks and stacks of leftover $ with which to spend on other players, you'd be sitting here claiming Kenny is an idiot for not compiling the best team possible.

 

You're just impossible to please. Ever. I actually think sometimes you are Jay Mariotti.

 

Easy on my guy, shack. He and I share similar views, so perhaps I have an affinity for him and subsequent bias, but he's hardly Jay Mariotti.

[NorthSideSox72]

I actually think sometimes you are Jay Mariotti.

 

This should be interesting.

 

[southsider2k5]

You're just impossible to please. Ever. I actually think sometimes you are Jay Mariotti.

 

Hmm, I wonder what he thinks of Hawk?

[iamshack]

Easy on my guy, shack. He and I share similar views, so perhaps I have an affinity for him and subsequent bias, but he's hardly Jay Mariotti.

 

GP,

You two don't share similar views, you share the precise same view, and you volley your negative beachball back and forth enough that eventually enough people see it and start to believe it.

 

And DA and I tear into one another on a daily basis, so I don't think it's anything with which he'll be surprised.

[Dick Allen]

You want to talk about "spin"? Look at your posts in regards to KW.

 

You're impossible to satisfy. You're the ultimate "in hindsight" guy. You're always nitpicking everything.

 

This team won the World Series in 05'. In 06', it won 90 games. Last year sucked. We ALL know that. But that doesn't mean that the 08' team immediately starts out as a 72-win capable team as currently constructed. There are such things in a season as momentum, cummulative affects, bad-luck, injury, that come together to achieve results which are not necessarily the sum of their parts. I'll be the first to admit it happened in 05' when we won. And it certainly happened last year when we stunk. But just as that 05' team was not 99-win strong in talent, the 07' team was not 90-loss in talent.

 

The whole point is that Kenny felt Hunter for 5/75 was a risk worth taking, but not at 5/90. Why is that difficult to understand? And yes, some of the players that were signed before HAVE strangled the team a bit financially, but that's an amazingly relative situation. Your team CAN be strangled a bit financially if your veterans perform as they ought to. Last year, they did not. But that does not mean they will not again this year. What you're arguing is almost like you do not want Kenny to commit the necessary resources to maximize the team's chances for success. Had we had stacks and stacks of leftover $ with which to spend on other players, you'd be sitting here claiming Kenny is an idiot for not compiling the best team possible.

 

You're just impossible to please. Ever. I actually think sometimes you are Jay Mariotti.

 

First off calling me Jay Mariotti is a personal attack and should get you a lifetime ban. Secondly, if you have ever read my posts, I'm hardly a "hindsight" guy. Thirdly the "90 win team" of 2006 was a mirage. They were awesome the first half, and awful the second. 2007 was an extension of the second half of 2006. Bad hitting, a horrible bullpen. That is now a season and a half of bad baseball. Thinking its just some sort of "perfect storm" is for cowards and losers as coach Ditka likes to say.

KW's point wasn't 5/75 vs. 5/90. Hunter never even gave the White Sox a chance to match it. It was the 75 million. People expect KW to spend that now, and he's basically letting people know its not there.

KW needs to realize the reason why he doesn't have stacks and stacks of money to spend on improving his team, is because KW spent stacks and stacks of money locking in a bad team for a few years.