Where did that $75 million go ?

[Soxbadger]

"average payroll"

 

Well I assume that he means if you include payrolls like Boston, Yankees, Angels, and then divide it by 30.

 

But I would guess the median payroll wont hit 100mil for another 10 years, because some teams are still under 50mil.

 

The facts are the Sox went from an "average" payroll in 2004, to a top 5 payroll in 2007. Thats not just moving with averages, thats increasing versus everyone else as well.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Soxbadger

[iamshack]

"average payroll"

 

Well I assume that he means if you include payrolls like Boston, Yankees, Angels, and then divide it by 30.

 

But I would guess the median payroll wont hit 100mil for another 10 years, because some teams are still under 50mil.

 

The facts are the Sox went from an "average" payroll in 2004, to a top 5 payroll in 2007. Thats not just moving with averages, thats increasing versus everyone else as well.

 

I agree. This is definitely a good thing. Although it did correlate alot to our rise in attendance as well. We need to keep that up!

[NorthSideSox72]

In answer to the question... apparently, it went to Alexei Ramirez.

 

[gosox41]

Who is he talking about that the fans wanted him to throw money at? Why would it have been OK to break the budget with Torii Hunter but not with Buerhle, Contreras, Dye,Konerko, Vazquez et al? Spin, spin, spin. I'm sick of spin. Its funny he's criticizing the fans for looking "at today only", but wouldn't that have been what he was doing with Hunter? Doesn't he always pop off about winning now? Wasn't it KW who wanted to throw money at Bartolo Colon? Didn't he try to throw a lot of money at Magglio? He is so full of s*** its ridiculous.

 

 

While he is full of it, my guess is if Hunter signed, someonw wiht a big salary was being traded.

 

 

 

Bob

[southsider2k5]

"average payroll"

 

Well I assume that he means if you include payrolls like Boston, Yankees, Angels, and then divide it by 30.

 

But I would guess the median payroll wont hit 100mil for another 10 years, because some teams are still under 50mil.

 

The facts are the Sox went from an "average" payroll in 2004, to a top 5 payroll in 2007. Thats not just moving with averages, thats increasing versus everyone else as well.

 

Good post. The Sox organization has held up its end of the bargain with the fans by putting every dime it took in over the last two years back onto the field. Its too bad the players getting that money haven't held up their end of the bargain.

[iamshack]

Good post. The Sox organization has held up its end of the bargain with the fans by putting every dime it took in over the last two years back onto the field. Its too bad the players getting that money haven't held up their end of the bargain.

 

That is the KEY problem here. Thank you for stating that. And that is a player problem, not a GM problem. Although the Kenny detractors will say he should have forseen the fact that those players wouldn't hold up to their end of the bargain. And that is sometimes a legitimate complaint. But I don't see it in the case of many of our players. Those players' whose decline or likelihood of failure was great were guys like Erstad, Pods, Crede- guys who weren't making a large salary.

[spawn]

That is the KEY problem here. Thank you for stating that. And that is a player problem, not a GM problem. Although the Kenny detractors will say he should have forseen the fact that those players wouldn't hold up to their end of the bargain. And that is sometimes a legitimate complaint. But I don't see it in the case of many of our players. Those players' whose decline or likelihood of failure was great were guys like Erstad, Pods, Crede- guys who weren't making a large salary.

No kidding. I find it amusing KW gets the blame because the players he brought in didn't do their jobs.

[elrockinMT]

Vazquez has massively increased his value. Paulie's remains steady. If anything, Buehrle value (or value to us) has increased as a result of the contract he signed. Garland is gone, but it's not as though "he vanished like a fart in the wind." We have Cabrera here now, who can be dealt as well. And Contreras was a huge question LAST offseason. How are you forgetting that minor detail after his 06' second half?

 

 

I don't think trading Vazquez would be wise. The Sox spun the Garland trade by saying they thought Garland had platued (sp?) in 2005 and 2006 with 18 wins and was not going to get any better-maybe go down? Vazquez though is improving every year and you have to wonder if he might not be the #1 starter at some point.

[StrangeSox]

No kidding. I find it amusing KW gets the blame because the players he brought in didn't do their jobs.

 

He gets blame for bringing in bad players or expecting players to do things they haven't done before or in a very long time. His bullpen last year consisted of a bunch of guys who threw hard but couldn't throw strikes. He knew that when he got them, so, when they don't throw strikes, he gets some of the blame. 2/3's of his OF consisted of "grinders" who were light-hitting and constantly injured. He gets some of the blame for having such a disaster of an OF.

 

When someone like Buerhle, Konerko, or Dye have an off year, that's not on the GM. You expect your top players to produce. But when you bring in bad pieces, you get the blame for bad performances.

[santo=dorf]

No kidding. I find it amusing KW gets the blame because the players he brought in didn't do their jobs.

Grinderstad and Pods were crippled pieces of garbage before the 2007 season. KW brought them back/in when we KNEW they were a liability and weren't worth the paper their contracts were printed on. That is his fault.

[CWSGuy406]

That is the KEY problem here. Thank you for stating that. And that is a player problem, not a GM problem. Although the Kenny detractors will say he should have forseen the fact that those players wouldn't hold up to their end of the bargain. And that is sometimes a legitimate complaint. But I don't see it in the case of many of our players. Those players' whose decline or likelihood of failure was great were guys like Erstad, Pods, Crede- guys who weren't making a large salary.

 

Look at the core of players on this team -- most of them are over 30 years old. The only "core" -- and this admittedly a subjective term -- guys who aren't older than 30 are Jenks and Buehrle. That's a huge problem.

 

And please don't tell us it's not the GM's fault. The crap farm system goes directly on the shoulders on Kenny. The lack of activity in the Dominican and the length of time it took for the Sox to actually be active down there is on the shoulders of Kenny. Hell, I even blame part of the lack of going over slot on Kenny. Every year there's at least 4-5 million that's wasted pointlessly on players with the big club (last year -- Podsednik, Erstad as the top two) -- you're telling me that money couldn't be allocated to the draft? But that's a minor point in the bigger picture of the complete garbage that has been the Sox farm system over the past half-decade or so.

[joejoesox]

Look at the core of players on this team -- most of them are over 30 years old.

 

one of the biggest misinformed statements i've heard about the sox is their starters are too old

 

the average age of our starting lineup (ignoring pitching for a minute)

 

29.7 years old, this includes Fields in LF (Instead of Quentin, who is also young), Crede at 3B, Owens in CF

 

the average age of the Boston Redsox (ignoring pitching)

30.5 years old, this includes Pedroia at 2B, and Ellsbury in CF

 

age has nothing to do with why we're bad.

 

we're bad because we have BAD players.

Edited December 26, 2007 by joesaiditstrue

[NorthSideSox72]

Look at the core of players on this team -- most of them are over 30 years old. The only "core" -- and this admittedly a subjective term -- guys who aren't older than 30 are Jenks and Buehrle. That's a huge problem.

 

And please don't tell us it's not the GM's fault. The crap farm system goes directly on the shoulders on Kenny. The lack of activity in the Dominican and the length of time it took for the Sox to actually be active down there is on the shoulders of Kenny. Hell, I even blame part of the lack of going over slot on Kenny. Every year there's at least 4-5 million that's wasted pointlessly on players with the big club (last year -- Podsednik, Erstad as the top two) -- you're telling me that money couldn't be allocated to the draft? But that's a minor point in the bigger picture of the complete garbage that has been the Sox farm system over the past half-decade or so.

Even though I tend to be a little more positive about KW than most... I do have to agree that the awful state of the farm system is his fault (almost entirely), and so was the LF and CF situation heading into 2007.

 

[sircaffey]

one of the biggest misinformed statements i've heard about the sox is their starters are too old

 

the average age of our starting lineup (ignoring pitching for a minute)

 

29.7 years old, this includes Fields in LF (Instead of Quentin, who is also young), Crede at 3B, Owens in CF

 

the average age of the Boston Redsox (ignoring pitching)

30.5 years old, this includes Pedroia at 2B, and Ellsbury in CF

 

age has nothing to do with why we're bad.

 

we're bad because we have BAD players.

 

He said "core". Owens, Crede, Richar, Quentin are not core players. Our offense is never going to be built around those guys anytime soon. Dye, Konerko, Thome, and Cabrera are all old and part of the core of the current team.

Edited December 26, 2007 by sircaffey

[iamshack]

He said "core". Owens, Crede, Richar, Quentin are not core players. Our offense is never going to be built around those guys anytime soon. Dye, Konerko, Thome, and Cabrera are all old and part of the core of the current team.

 

The same thing applies. Look at Boston's "core." Papi, Manny, Lowell, Varitek, Drew. Our players are not too old.

[sircaffey]

The same thing applies. Look at Boston's "core." Papi, Manny, Lowell, Varitek, Drew. Our players are not too old.

 

I don't think anyone said they were "too old." At least I was merely disagreeing with the statement that the core of this team was not old.

 

And besides, Boston's situation is completely different that the Sox. They actually produce impact talent from within. They have a ton more youthful talent than the Sox and can get away with an aging core. Going forward, the age of our "core" is a huge problem with the way this organization produces talent, and is reluctant to bring in talent from the free agent market. On the other hand, it is not a problem for the Red Sox. Even in this upcoming season, relying so heavily on a core that is on the downside of their careers is somewhat of a problem.

[iamshack]

I don't think anyone said they were "too old." At least I was merely disagreeing with the statement that the core of this team was not old.

 

And besides, Boston's situation is completely different that the Sox. They actually produce impact talent from within. They have a ton more youthful talent than the Sox and can get away with an aging core. Going forward, the age of our "core" is a huge problem with the way this organization produces talent, and is reluctant to bring in talent from the free agent market. On the other hand, it is not a problem for the Red Sox. Even in this upcoming season, relying so heavily on a core that is on the downside of their careers is somewhat of a problem.

 

Until very recently, Boston has not developed crap from within. Name all the players from their Championship teams that they developed from within, please.

[DBAHO]

Even though I tend to be a little more positive about KW than most... I do have to agree that the awful state of the farm system is his fault (almost entirely), and so was the LF and CF situation heading into 2007.

Yeah this would be my main fault of him as a GM also, although at least now I think he's taken steps to correct this with new scouts, starting to sign players out of Latin America etc.

[sircaffey]

Until very recently, Boston has not developed crap from within. Name all the players from their Championship teams that they developed from within, please.

 

If we are talking about last season then Ellsbury, Pedroia, Papelbon, Varitek, Youkilis, Delcarmen, Buchholz, Lester straight from the system. Honorable mention to Schilling, Beckett, Lowell, and Crisp as they were gotten through use of the farm system via trade.

 

If we are talking about 2004, what does it matter? At that time their "core" wasn't old either. That time period has no relevance to the current situation. They are stacked now, and now is what we are talking about. Farm systems fluctuate when it comes to producing Major League talent. The Red Sox are up now.

 

Besides, they still had a good system back then. They just chose to acquire Major League ready players with it. Not to mention, the Red Sox don't just hand jobs to the Jerry Owens and Danny Richars of the world. It takes a special kind of prospect to crack the Red Sox lineup.

Edited December 27, 2007 by sircaffey

[joejoesox]

I don't think anyone said they were "too old." At least I was merely disagreeing with the statement that the core of this team was not old.

And besides, Boston's situation is completely different that the Sox. They actually produce impact talent from within. They have a ton more youthful talent than the Sox and can get away with an aging core. Going forward, the age of our "core" is a huge problem with the way this organization produces talent, and is reluctant to bring in talent from the free agent market. On the other hand, it is not a problem for the Red Sox. Even in this upcoming season, relying so heavily on a core that is on the downside of their careers is somewhat of a problem.

 

actually (speaking from position players for the moment), the only position youth boston is using right now is Pedroia and perhaps Ellsbury in 08 (are they confident in keeping him in CF all year if they intend on competing for back to back championships? or will they keep crisp just in case?)

 

Pedroia is far from being a lock in terms of a successful career, and so is Ellsbury

 

so we're back to the veterans, and both teams are ~30 years old for team average, so then you just have to evaluate talent on a player to player basis and the redsox are much better hitters than our guys are, it's really that simple

[sircaffey]

actually (speaking from position players for the moment), the only position youth boston is using right now is Pedroia and perhaps Ellsbury in 08 (are they confident in keeping him in CF all year if they intend on competing for back to back championships? or will they keep crisp just in case?)

 

Pedroia is far from being a lock in terms of a successful career, and so is Ellsbury

 

so we're back to the veterans, and both teams are ~30 years old for team average, so then you just have to evaluate talent on a player to player basis and the redsox are much better hitters than our guys are, it's really that simple

 

When I say the age of the core isn't a problem for the Red Sox I mean that they have impact young talent waiting. Once Big Papi, Manny, Lowell, and company stop producing, Boston will be loaded with a new wave. When Pauly, Thome, Dye, and company stop producing, the Sox will be s*** out of luck. I don't, however, think age is much of a problem for next season which is what I think you are referring to mainly.

[iamshack]

If we are talking about last season then Ellsbury, Pedroia, Papelbon, Varitek, Youkilis, Delcarmen, Buchholz, Lester straight from the system. Honorable mention to Schilling, Beckett, Lowell, and Crisp as they were gotten through use of the farm system via trade.

 

If we are talking about 2004, what does it matter? At that time their "core" wasn't old either. That time period has no relevance to the current situation. They are stacked now, and now is what we are talking about. Farm systems fluctuate when it comes to producing Major League talent. The Red Sox are up now.

 

Besides, they still had a good system back then. They just chose to acquire Major League ready players with it. Not to mention, the Red Sox don't just hand jobs to the Jerry Owens and Danny Richars of the world. It takes a special kind of prospect to crack the Red Sox lineup.

 

Pedroia played very well all season. Ellsbury played how many games for them? Varitek was acquired via trade for Heathcliff Slocumb, in a deal they didn't even mean to get him in. Youkilis they drafted. Buccholz made 2 starts, had no effect on their playoff run. Lester pitched how many games for them last year?

 

If you want to talk about guys they received in trade, you have to do the same for the White Sox- you can look at Konerko, Thome, Vazquez, Garland, Thornton, MacDougal the same way. And past players as well, including Garcia.

 

The White Sox don't normally hand jobs to guys like Owens or Richar either, but every team has its moments. Ask the Red Sox about Doug Mienkiewitz and Alex Cora.

 

I'm not really sure you have much of a point, other than the Red Sox have a better farm system currently than the White Sox. But as you say, farm systems fluctuate.

 

But your original point has no merit.

[gosox41]

No kidding. I find it amusing KW gets the blame because the players he brought in didn't do their jobs.

 

 

Or mabe he is getting the blame becuase he is bringing back a lot of those players who didn't do their jobs.

 

 

 

Bob

[elrockinMT]

The more I think about this spin on things from KW the more I think we didn't have any money at all to sign players to improve this team and we must have been going to write one of those rubber checks to Torii Hunter.

[klaus kinski]

This team has plenty of $-dont listen to any of what runs out of Williams mouth