The White Sox and Alexei Ramírez agree to 4 year deal

[Vance Law]

Ripping on Willie Ha? I have to object.

 

Wasn't ripping on Willie. Only an infidel would do that. Simply distinguishing between Ramirez and Harris. I doubt Willie ever hit 20 home runs during a session of RBI Baseball, much less in a season in Cuba's top league.

[dasox24]

Scouting Grades

Hitting - 60

Power - 40

Arm Strength - 60

Fielding - 50 (OF); 55 (SS)

Speed - 60

 

This is the scouting report I saw posted earlier.

 

Now, for the layman, this is the 20-80 scouting scale. Whereas 50 is MLB avg. A player with this OFP would be a 54 - where a 55 is a potential All-Star during peak seasons.

 

The MLB Scouting Bureau - which provides scouting reports filled out by scouts that work for MLB (none of this is available online), and various other organizational reports from other teams have this scouting score on Ramirez

 

Hit - 45

Power - 35

Arm - 60

Field - 35 INF 45 OF

Run - 55

 

OFP: 47

 

47 would represent a fringe player who may be a starter on 2nd division teams, but is a utility type on 1st division teams. Omar Infante's number: 47. He is maxed out in that - his tools are playable as is - meaning if he were to get 'bigger' he will increase other tools while decreasing in other areas. Meaning - if he got "bigger", he will lose range & speed - negating his defensive ability in positions such as CF & 2B while increasing in power, etc - but his OFP remains the same.

 

Kosuke Fukudome - yes, he was injured - but it was not a major injury and he has displayed thru physicals that he is 100%.

 

Fukudome's OFP according to the reports turned in by all 30 MLB teams:

 

65 hit

55 power

65 arm

65 defense

50 run

 

60 OFP.

 

60 is a starter on all first division teams with All-Star capability. Players with 60 OFP: Alex Rios, Aramis Ramirez, Nick Markakis.

 

Now, please keep in mind that both players will undergo "transitional" seasons this coming year. The game they are about to play is much bigger, faster, and more powerful.

 

The point of this: Fukudome has an OFP of a well-above average MLB player. Ramirez is a fringe-avg. player.

 

Position Players (not pitchers) do not get 48 M and another get 4+ M for no good reason fellas. Ramirez is a known quantity. All 30 MLB teams have seen him play and have the report above in on him. You don't "steal" a player for 4+ M when all teams have their reports on the player turned in.

Absolutely love the insight you bring to this board! Thanks.

[beck72]

so, let me get this straight

 

we basically just signed a bench player, and that makes this team noticably better? why did we sign cabrera and linebrink, then sign a guy who probably won't even be on the team in 2008 but instead be in AAA, along with signing basically a AAA left fielder who was injured last year

 

how do these moves make this team better and more competitive for 2008?

 

The sox need to get younger more versatile players [not just in the field, but at the plate, on the bases, etc]. Along with Richar, Fields, Quentin, Ramirez seems to fit that mold. Getting guys who are near major league ready to play every day who can compliment the current roster of vets like Dye, Thome, PK, and AJ, isn't that bad a plan. While this signing might not help the sox in 2008, it would seem to help give the sox some options in the near future.

[Soxfest]

Would this be KW with 50 cents and spending a nickle in his way of thinking? I am not ripping or praising the move time will tell.

Edited December 22, 2007 by Soxfest

[beck72]

Would this be KW with 50 cents and spending a nickle in his way of thinking? I am not ripping or praising the move time will tell.

IMO, it's more a matter of getting younger talent who have a decent upside at an affordable price. A move such as this shouldn't keep the sox from adding a more proven player for either Cf or 2b.

[BlackBetsy]

To Bureau17 and others:

 

I note that you say you have access to the MLB scouting reports on players (and thus were able to compare Fukudome to Rios, Markakis, etc.) and that Fukudome comes out as a 60 and Ramirez comes out as a 47. A couple of questions:

 

(1) Are these official MLB reports, meaning that they are done by the Office of the Commissioner, or are they aggregate grades across different organizations?

(2) If they are aggregate grades, it would seem like there is some range - one team might have Ramirez as a 41 while another might have him as a 53. It would seem there may be grounds to differ.

(3) If these official MLB reports, and no damage would be done to the Sox, would it be possible for you to post the scouting grades of the major prospects and players in the White Sox minor league system?

[103 mph screwball]

Signing international players can be a big help. If KW's strategy is to trade talented or multiple lower level prospects for MLB or MLB ready players, it has been and will continue to be a drain on the clubs talent pool. I'd much rather do like they did yesterday and invest some cash in potential international talent, than rely on draft picks. One nice thing about Japanese or Cuban players is that they already have some experience at a professional level. Although it is not MLB level, there has to be some value to the fact that they have been able to preform in front of big crowds against the best competition available in their country. I think it is much more likely that a scout could get it wrong drafting a player out of high school.

 

I didn't think Ramirez would a big impact in 08 since he is such a raw talent. BureauEmployee171's more expert analysis has further tempered my expectations. Even still, the Sox added potential talent at thin organizational positions to the mix without giving up any other players. That gives KW the versatility to trade Sweeney/Owens/Anderson/Richar type guys for a Crisp or Roberts.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Signing international players can be a big help. If KW's strategy is to trade talented or multiple lower level prospects for MLB or MLB ready players, it has been and will continue to be a drain on the clubs talent pool. I'd much rather do like they did yesterday and invest some cash in potential international talent, than rely on draft picks. One nice thing about Japanese or Cuban players is that they already have some experience at a professional level. Although it is not MLB level, there has to be some value to the fact that they have been able to preform in front of big crowds against the best competition available in their country. I think it is much more likely that a scout could get it wrong drafting a player out of high school.

 

I didn't think Ramirez would a big impact in 08 since he is such a raw talent. BureauEmployee171's more expert analysis has further tempered my expectations. Even still, the Sox added potential talent at thin organizational positions to the mix without giving up any other players. That gives KW the versatility to trade Sweeney/Owens/Anderson/Richar type guys for a Crisp or Roberts.

Hopefully he shocks baseball people and turns into a force, but let's face it, he was on the open market and could only get Geoff Blum-money. That probably tells you right there not many teams think he'll have much on an impact especially in 2008, but stranger things have happened. I just hope the White Sox when they announce this signing, don't make him out to be the next Minnie Minoso or something . I don't think they will.

[spiderman]

I tend to think that we just signed Andy Gonzalez's replacement - basically a guy who can play anywhere on the field. Given how cheap this contract is, I have to assume that most around the majors don't see much impact, more of a bench option, super-sub guy.

 

I have no problem with this signing as he is so cheap, it doesn't impact the payroll if he does flop.

 

We still have the same issues as before though - a CF to lead-off, a LF who's suspect/prospect, a 3-5 in the rotation that is very questionable to downright bad, and a bullpen that hasn't changed much since last season ended, I'll call the bullpen a marginal improvement since we are still depending on MacDougle/Thorton to have good seasons.

 

Cabrera will probably be a nice pickup for the #2 hole in the lineup, but Kenny really messed up with resigning Uribe to the 4.5 million deal, and we now have two guys at SS making a combined $11.5 (or so) million. I have no idea why Kenny was so worried about not having a SS on his roster at the start of free agency, Uribe is horrible, and that was a pretty bad blunder.

 

Overall, I think this team is about the same as last season, I'll give them, as we stand, around 75 wins.

[shipps]

I enjoy business savvy moves as much as the next guy,but it is pretty discouraging watching the other teams in our division aquire impact players to teams that were better than the sox last year.And we are adding nothing but players with moderate potential that few other teams wanted,not to mention losing solid starting pitching.I always like to assume that KW has this "masterplan" and when he misses out on someone I just think he has another idea,I hope this signing is not the other idea.This is two offseasons in a row now that KW has dissappointed.

[PHAT ALBERT]

Scouting Grades

Hitting - 60

Power - 40

Arm Strength - 60

Fielding - 50 (OF); 55 (SS)

Speed - 60

 

This is the scouting report I saw posted earlier.

 

Now, for the layman, this is the 20-80 scouting scale. Whereas 50 is MLB avg. A player with this OFP would be a 54 - where a 55 is a potential All-Star during peak seasons.

 

The MLB Scouting Bureau - which provides scouting reports filled out by scouts that work for MLB (none of this is available online), and various other organizational reports from other teams have this scouting score on Ramirez

 

Hit - 45

Power - 35

Arm - 60

Field - 35 INF 45 OF

Run - 55

 

OFP: 47

 

47 would represent a fringe player who may be a starter on 2nd division teams, but is a utility type on 1st division teams. Omar Infante's number: 47. He is maxed out in that - his tools are playable as is - meaning if he were to get 'bigger' he will increase other tools while decreasing in other areas. Meaning - if he got "bigger", he will lose range & speed - negating his defensive ability in positions such as CF & 2B while increasing in power, etc - but his OFP remains the same.

 

Kosuke Fukudome - yes, he was injured - but it was not a major injury and he has displayed thru physicals that he is 100%.

 

Fukudome's OFP according to the reports turned in by all 30 MLB teams:

 

65 hit

55 power

65 arm

65 defense

50 run

 

60 OFP.

 

60 is a starter on all first division teams with All-Star capability. Players with 60 OFP: Alex Rios, Aramis Ramirez, Nick Markakis.

 

Now, please keep in mind that both players will undergo "transitional" seasons this coming year. The game they are about to play is much bigger, faster, and more powerful.

 

The point of this: Fukudome has an OFP of a well-above average MLB player. Ramirez is a fringe-avg. player.

 

Position Players (not pitchers) do not get 48 M and another get 4+ M for no good reason fellas. Ramirez is a known quantity. All 30 MLB teams have seen him play and have the report above in on him. You don't "steal" a player for 4+ M when all teams have their reports on the player turned in.

 

I do not think that the Scouting Buereau gets reports turned in by all 30 teams. Why would they do that? Why would they share proprietary, subjective evaluations with their competitors? No offense, but I think this is kind of bogus.

 

[RME JICO]

I do not think that the Scouting Buereau gets reports turned in by all 30 teams. Why would they do that? Why would they share proprietary, subjective evaluations with their competitors? No offense, but I think this is kind of bogus.

That's why you don't let external information influence your decisions as much as your internal info. I am sure some of the info is tailored to benefit the organization that it is coming from, and since it is subjective, there is a ton of bias involved.

 

Bureau's info (the person, not the organization) has been very solid since he has arrived here.

Edited December 22, 2007 by RME JICO

[klaus kinski]

If he worked out for as many teams as suggested, and signed for so little, to expect an impact at the major league level is not realistic.

 

 

[scenario]

If he worked out for as many teams as suggested, and signed for so little, to expect an impact at the major league level is not realistic.

 

You have to put the salaries in perspective. Compare what he got to the last two Cuban shortstops who came over to MLB...

 

- When Yuniesky Betancourt came over (2005), he signed a 4-year contract for $2.8M.

 

- Yunel Escobar, the new Braves SS replacing Renteria, is playing for the major league minimum.

 

 

So not out of line really. In fact, Ramirez is probably feeling pretty good. He just went from Cuban poverty to being an American millionaire.

Edited December 22, 2007 by scenario

[bulokis]

Big Fish!!!! FU Detroit....

[Steve9347]

You have to put the salaries in perspective. Compare what he got to the last two Cuban shortstops who came over to MLB...

 

- When Yuniesky Betancourt came over (2005), he signed a 4-year contract for $2.8M.

 

- Yunel Escobar, the new Braves SS replacing Renteria, is playing for the major league minimum.

So not out of line really. In fact, Ramirez is probably feeling pretty good. He just went from Cuban poverty to being an American millionaire.

Excellent post.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Bureau,

 

Just for comparison's sake, would you be so kind as to post the scouting scores on Ozuna and Uribe?

 

Thanks!

[3E8]

You may want to delete your Poreda report then

[PHAT ALBERT]

To the poster who said something about the MLB Scouting Bureau combining reports with the 30 MLB teams - you're right, but I didn't say that they combined. I said that the OFP provided was the one used by the MLBSB, and that I referenced friends from other organizations (12 total that I asked or called and told me when they saw he signed) who had scouting reports turned in on Ramirez and 47 was his OFP.

 

Do these scores "range" from team to team? The short answer - yes. Do they range "greatly" from team to team? No.

 

One team may have a 46, one team a 47, another a 48. But there won't be a team out there that grades Ramirez at higher than 49, and a team won't grade him lower than a 45.

 

And with regard to providing the scouting reports for the ChiSox prospects - I don't want to do so because of possible transactions, etc.

 

I can provide them on two recently traded players (Aaron Cunningham & Chris Carter) from the MLBSB, though.

 

Cunningham -

 

Tool - Current/Future

 

Hit - 50/60

Power - 40/50

Run - 60/60

Field - 50/55

Throw - 45/50

 

OFP current - 49, OFP future - 55 would translate to an above-avg. MLB OF with All-Star potential in peak seasons. A starter on most teams with a solid well-above avg. hit tool - .300+ avg. Cunningham projects similarly to Eric Byrnes.

 

Chris Carter -

 

Hit - 40/50

Power - 60/70

Run - 35/40

Field - 35/45

Throw - 40/45

 

OFP current - 42, OFP Future - 50. This translates into an "avg" player, but, in OFP - a huge plus tool in the hit/power category get upwards of 10 overall in OFP. Meaning - Carter could become a 60 based on his power production. He will never be a glove man but has the possibility of being a .275-40+ HR player in peak seasons. A fringe-avg. starter on all teams in the NL, with the possibility of being a valuable DH in the mold of Jermaine Dye with the bat.

 

Oh. I didn't get it the first time. This makes more sense. But, why are these 12 people from 12 different teams sharing with you confidential scouting data? Sounds like there should be 12 jobs in major league front offices opening soon.

 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Like I said, I don't want to post reports that could affect transactions, etc.

OK, that's fine and I respect that. I'm just a little confused in that if those reports are provided by MLBSB and are available to all 30 teams, how would posting the scores of Uribe and Ozuna here affect any potential transaction?

 

Anyway again, if you think you shouldn't post them, I respect that and thanks anyway.

[RME JICO]

Cunningham -

 

Tool - Current/Future

 

Hit - 50/60

Power - 40/50

Run - 60/60

Field - 50/55

Throw - 45/50

 

OFP current - 49, OFP future - 55 would translate to an above-avg. MLB OF with All-Star potential in peak seasons. A starter on most teams with a solid well-above avg. hit tool - .300+ avg. Cunningham projects similarly to Eric Byrnes.

Bureau, for comparison, how about Richar's either now or at the time of the deal? He is not going anywhere.

[kevo880]

I will give MLBSB's and the BAL Orioles reports (as both are the same):

 

Danny Richar -

 

Tool - Current/Future

 

Hit - 40/50

Power - 30/35

Run - 60/60

Field - 35/45

Throw - 50/55

 

OFP 49

 

I thought Richar had great range and is an above average defender. Surprising to see his fielding so low on this report

[Gene Honda Civic]

Range is taken into account in fielding - but in the report it states he throws too flat-footed and will have trouble being a true 2B defender on double plays & has an erratic arm - which takes his pure arm strength from a 60 down to a 50 current. He has tough hands which limit his overall fielding ability despite his athleticism.

That sounds like the report on his defense, but that's not what we saw... He may have been throwning flat footed, but he wasn't erratic at all. (That could definitely show up in the future though). His hands also weren't bad, though it looked like you could see him really concentrating (not that that is a bad thing). He just wasn't natural, wasn't fluid. Just effectively average, playable, if not forgettable.

 

His range was a disappointment (to me) though. He was average, I suppose. But you would think a guy with his speed would be able to get to more balls.

[Dick Allen]

I will give MLBSB's and the BAL Orioles reports (as both are the same):

 

Danny Richar -

 

Tool - Current/Future

 

Hit - 40/50

Power - 30/35

Run - 60/60

Field - 35/45

Throw - 50/55

 

OFP 49

 

I don't know how long you've been in the business, but I would love to see Joe Borchard's reports circa 2000/2001.

[BlackBetsy]

I will give MLBSB's and the BAL Orioles reports (as both are the same):

 

Danny Richar -

 

Tool - Current/Future

 

Hit - 40/50

Power - 30/35

Run - 60/60

Field - 35/45

Throw - 50/55

 

OFP 49

Richar's patience at the plate has to count for something. To me, I guy who hits as an average ML'er (say, .260-.270) but who walks a ton to get on base at a .360-.380 clip is much more valuable than a guy who hits for "plus" average - .300, say, and never walks. I don't see this in the list of tools.

 

BTW, Richar's power potential at 35...I call shenanigans on that. He had about .190 ISOs in both AAA stops last year, and a .170 ISO for the White Sox. The only time he didn't show slugging ability was in 2006 in AA. I wonder if the power numbers are based on a review of his work in 2006. If his power is 40/50, his overall OFP goes up to what, 52-53?