Kw On Air At 10:20 a.m Espn 1000

[retro1983hat]

I hate when I have to defend Mike North here. I can't stand him. But pleeeeeeaase do not give me Bruce "**ssy* Levine as a defense. I am not sure which team's butt he kisses more, the Sox or Cubs. All he wants to do is be in the locker room and be the GM's and player's buddy. I can't stand him. Such a suck up. Ask Dan McNeil off the air what he really thinks of Levine.

[RME JICO]

Ron Schueler's teams were 78 games over .500 in 10 years with the White Sox. If there was no strike in 1994, chances are they would have played out the string that year better than .500 which means that 78 is low. KW's teams are 54 games over .500 in 7 seasons as GM. Schueler's teams made the postseason twice, and perhaps would have made it 3 times if not for a strike. KW's teams have made it once. KW does have the only title, but really its a GMs job to get the team to be good enough over the 6 month season and hope they get the breaks in the playoffs ie you could hardly call Walt Jocketty Executive of the Year in 2006 for putting together a team that won 83 games made the playoffs and won the WS.

What I'm getting at is Schueler's record as a GM as far as results and condition of the organization is just as good as KW's. Schueler quit because he wanted to be a scout. JR did proclaim Schueler was the White Sox GM as long as he wanted to be the White Sox GM. JR has a lot of influence around baseball. Schueler has tried but cannot get another GM job.

SS2K5 has a quote about the "defeatist attitude" in his signature. Its a quote from KW. Saying a year is successful because the White Sox finish 8 games above .500 and come in second or third is exactly what even he is talking about. There really is no reason the White Sox should not have dominated the Central Division the past 6 or 7 years. NONE. They had as many or more resources as any team in their division. Cleveland and Detroit and if you think about it even Minnesota went through almost total rebuilds. KC is KC but 1 playoff appearance in 7 years for KW. Its really not that impressive, and if someday he decides to quit his current job, I think he'll probably have the same results as Schueler if a year or so later, he wants back in.

KW is a blowhard and some still buy his act. He still talks down to everyone like he has all the answers. Last week he went to the " if we did what the public wanted" routine again. He needs to look in the mirror. He has a team that lost 90 games. Still drew one of the highest attendance figures in team history, and he only has $.50. Looks like the fans weren't the only ones wrong about where to throw money.

Nice post. Also, if the season was played out in 1994, the Sox could've very well made the postseason as well, since they ended up in first when the strike started.

 

Also, after last season, the winning percentages are in favor of Schueler:

 

Sox with RS .527

Sox with KW .524

[shipps]

You can say all you want about Schueler but Iam still glad KW is here and not him.

[klaus kinski]

You can say all you want about Schueler but Iam still glad KW is here and not him.

 

I didnt like schu much after Larry Himes but,

 

I'd give anything to have him now over Williams. This organization is not even an organization anymore, its in disarray

[AirScott]

You have to think Linebrink is worth more to the White Sox than any other team because of how bad our bullpen was. Really, they just need one more solid reliever who has been around more than five years and hasn't pitched himself out of the league yet -- kind of like Linebrink.

 

Yeah, we overpaid for him, but if 2008 goes well, our best reliever will probably be making somewhere between the minimum and $1.5 million (like Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts in 2005). Funny how that works.

 

Still, the current Sox are about an 80-win team.

[Rowand44]

This of season leaves me convinced that the Sox are a cheap organization and Reinsdorf makes it appear he will spends money to assemble, or keep together a winning ballclub. He sucks up too much to Selig and seesm to worship the Yankmees ownership. The Sox deevlop players in their own organization only to turn around and let them go rather than sign them when they are the point to start making money. We have develped some real special players only to see them go by bye. Not to mention the fact our ownereship boycots certain agents.

Our payroll makes it obvious that Reinsdorf is indeed cheap. What "special" players have we lost? Maggs? Well it would have been retarded to re-sign him under those circumstances. CLee? That trade indirectly won us a world series. Who else? Aaron Rowand? He's certainly not a special player and even if you consider him that, his trade led us to a more expensive Jim Thome.

 

I don't understand this argument of yours at all.

[Gregory Pratt]

Our payroll makes it obvious that Reinsdorf is indeed cheap. What "special" players have we lost? Maggs? Well it would have been retarded to re-sign him under those circumstances. CLee? That trade indirectly won us a world series. Who else? Aaron Rowand? He's certainly not a special player and even if you consider him that, his trade led us to a more expensive Jim Thome.

 

I don't understand this argument of yours at all.

 

I didn't get the Yankees reference.

[Gregory Pratt]

I would say it's the opposite on this board. Looking at the posts, at least 80% of the people here believe KW is an awful GM and should be fired. I think I am one of the few that thinks a GM with an above .500 record and a world series win under his belt deserves a chance. Very few current GMs can match this. I don't micromanage. I don't dissect each move in a vacuum. I look at results, so far his overall results have been good. Now if he has another disasterous season........

 

I don't think 80% of the people here believe KW is awful and should be fired. I'd guess it's something like 70/40, pro and against KW.

[elrockinMT]

I hope that 2005 wasn't a fluke year. But, to say that trading Carlos Lee was the reason we won because we got Pods most certainly can be argued. I think Pods most certainly contributed a lot, but maybe Lee would have too. It was a lot of fun to win in 2005, but what makes me believe all we are getting is hyperbole is that fact our execs keep telling us they will bring in the top tier players, but we never do. Then they turn around and tell us there is just so much financially they can do with the money the team has. If we can't compete or won't compete on the free agent marker just say so. I can handle that and I think most Sox fans can too. To look at the sitaution realisatically I will say that most likely one player won't win it as it takes a team effort. 25 solid players, whether they make major league minimum or $10M each, is what wins games and pennants. We seem to have a tenndency of front office to puff out their chests becasue they think they are going to reel in the big one only to see the big fish slip away to someone else. Notice I used the fishing analogy so come visit Big Sky Country and fish for the big trout. B)

[Dick Allen]

You can say all you want about Schueler but Iam still glad KW is here and not him.

 

I wasn't advocating bring back Ron Schueler. I was just pointing out that his reign really wasn't any worse than KW's and no one wants him to be their GM. KW's backers will point to the WS as the difference between the 2 and that really is BS. It wasn't KW's magical powers that made the ball roll through Tony G's legs. It wasn't KW's genius that got El Duque to get through that inning in Fenway unscathed. If those things don't happen, maybe they lose in the first round. If they lost in the first round, the majority who back KW's every move now would not think much of him. Whose to say if JR had Scheurlhotz or Shapiro or Theo or whoever, the White Sox don't have multiple titles now or at least multiple ALC titles and playoff appearances? KW gets way too much credit for the White Sox success. He inherited a team with a ton of good parts. It would be scary to think what his record as a GM would be if he inherited a team like the Pittsburgh Pirates.

 

[palehose23]

STFU

 

While I do not like what KW has done this offseason but to say that Schuler is a much better GM that KW is asinine. Bringing up winning percentages, division titles and the like means nothing- THE RING IS THE THING. When did we turn into the Yankees? You and your father have seen exactly the same amount of championships on the South Side-1 and KW was the GM. If it was a fluke or happenstance I would love to have that GM who luckily brought us this BS championship than a GM who kepted us mired in mediocrity. The Central now is much better now than the Central/West that Schuler had to get thru.

 

Be mad at KW- Hell I am furious at him- but don't just talk out of your rear end.

Edited December 23, 2007 by palehose23

[Vance Law]

I hope that 2005 wasn't a fluke year. But, to say that trading Carlos Lee was the reason we won because we got Pods most certainly can be argued. I think Pods most certainly contributed a lot, but maybe Lee would have too.

 

The argument generally is that not only did we get Pods and Viz (3.73 ERA in 70 innings), but the money saved on Carlos, let us get A.J. and Iguchi. Carlos Lee for Pods, AJ, Iguchi, and Viz. Remember the team's payroll was in the 70 millions, so Lee's contract represented a sizeable chunk.

[elrockinMT]

The argument generally is that not only did we get Pods and Viz (3.73 ERA in 70 innings), but the money saved on Carlos, let us get A.J. and Iguchi. Carlos Lee for Pods, AJ, Iguchi, and Viz. Remember the team's payroll was in the 70 millions, so Lee's contract represented a sizeable chunk.

 

 

I do understand the point people, that follow that line of thinking, make and I think it is valid, but I still think we give up on our own way to often becasue they won't pay them to stay.

[Dick Allen]

STFU

 

While I do not like what KW has done this offseason but to say that Schuler is a much better GM that KW is asinine. Bringing up winning percentages, division titles and the like means nothing- THE RING IS THE THING. When did we turn into the Yankees? You and your father have seen exactly the same amount of championships on the South Side-1 and KW was the GM. If it was a fluke or happenstance I would love to have that GM who luckily brought us this BS championship than a GM who kepted us mired in mediocrity. The Central now is much better now than the Central/West that Schuler had to get thru.

 

Be mad at KW- Hell I am furious at him- but don't just talk out of your rear end.

Who is talking out of their rear end? I haven't seen anyone call Schueler a much better GM. I think he's on par.If your a Bulls fan, from your post you must have been on 24 hour suicide watch when Jerry Krause was replaced. He's got 6 rings. Someone should hire him immediately.

[palehose23]

Who is talking out of their rear end? I haven't seen anyone call Schueler a much better GM. I think he's on par.If your a Bulls fan, from your post you must have been on 24 hour suicide watch when Jerry Krause was replaced. He's got 6 rings. Someone should hire him immediately.

 

 

ON PAR?! WOW. Schu has Zero rings and will not get hired again as a GM. As soon as KW "fails" here there will be a team(s) looking to scoop him up to run their organization.

 

And yes Jerry Krause is a MUCH BETTER GM than John Paxson ever will be. He traded for Scottie, drafted Horace, got rid of Doug Collins, and didn't listen to Jordan's suggestions on personnel (i.e. Walter Davis). You tell me a better GM in this city's history than him?

 

I'm Waiting...

 

 

 

Thats what I thought!!

[Dick Allen]

ON PAR?! WOW. Schu has Zero rings and will not get hired again as a GM. As soon as KW "fails" here there will be a team(s) looking to scoop him up to run their organization.

 

And yes Jerry Krause is a MUCH BETTER GM than John Paxson ever will be. He traded for Scottie, drafted Horace, got rid of Doug Collins, and didn't listen to Jordan's suggestions on personnel (i.e. Walter Davis). You tell me a better GM in this city's history than him?

 

I'm Waiting...

Thats what I thought!!

How come Dolan continues to watch Isaiah ruin the Knicks when Krause is available? If its "all about the rings", Walt Jocketty was the best GM in baseball in 2006, how come no one has scooped him up yet?

[max power]

How come Dolan continues to watch Isaiah ruin the Knicks when Krause is available? If its "all about the rings", Walt Jocketty was the best GM in baseball in 2006, how come no one has scooped him up yet?

Krause isn't available.

[heirdog]

Krause isn't available.

 

Krause inherited Jordan...Paxson inherited Jalen Rose. Please stop the comparisons. Paxson has done well and his true legacy will be decided based off whether he can take a semi-talented, hard working team into a championship by pushing the right buttons coming up in the next year or so. He took an underachieving, lazy team with a few bad contracts into a hard-working, asset laden team with a nice contract structure in place. They haven't performed this year so it looks bad but give this team Jordan in his prime and we would be talking a different tune about Paxson.

 

Yes, every team needs a supporting cast and other superstars but let's not kid ourselves, Jordan is the reason we won six...not Krause, not Pippen and not JR.

 

Kenny was the talk of the town when we won the WS and we all talked about how he brought us the championship with his moves...sticking with Garland, Crede and Rowand. Trading for Konerko, Contreras, Garcia, Pods. Signing AJ, Dye, El Duque etc. He pushed all the right buttons and we felt like he was robbed for GM of the year by Shapiro. Then we won 90 and fell flat after the AS break and it was written off as a bad half. We underachieved last year and our bullpen was a joke (which was Kenny's doing) so now he sucks! Maybe he was given too much credit when we won but now it seems, he is taking too much heat but that's how it was before the 2005 season so let's hope for a similar result.

 

 

[max power]

He is getting blamed for a season that hasn't even happened yet on top of it all.

[palehose23]

Krause inherited Jordan...Paxson inherited Jalen Rose. Please stop the comparisons. Paxson has done well and his true legacy will be decided based off whether he can take a semi-talented, hard working team into a championship by pushing the right buttons coming up in the next year or so. He took an underachieving, lazy team with a few bad contracts into a hard-working, asset laden team with a nice contract structure in place. They haven't performed this year so it looks bad but give this team Jordan in his prime and we would be talking a different tune about Paxson.

 

Yes, every team needs a supporting cast and other superstars but let's not kid ourselves, Jordan is the reason we won six...not Krause, not Pippen and not JR.

 

Kenny was the talk of the town when we won the WS and we all talked about how he brought us the championship with his moves...sticking with Garland, Crede and Rowand. Trading for Konerko, Contreras, Garcia, Pods. Signing AJ, Dye, El Duque etc. He pushed all the right buttons and we felt like he was robbed for GM of the year by Shapiro. Then we won 90 and fell flat after the AS break and it was written off as a bad half. We underachieved last year and our bullpen was a joke (which was Kenny's doing) so now he sucks! Maybe he was given too much credit when we won but now it seems, he is taking too much heat but that's how it was before the 2005 season so let's hope for a similar result.

 

Jordan without Pippen= Zero Championships

Jordan without Pippen= Getting beat 4 straight vs. the Lakers because the Bulls could guard "tragic" Johnson without Scottie.

Jordan without Pippen= Triple teams and 2007 Kobe

Paxson gets so much of a pass here in Chicago. Signing Ben Wallace for way too much money and years, letting go of Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry (which are the exact players the Bulls need), and not finding a way to get Kobe Bryant on this 2007 Bulls team is terrible.

 

GM with high expectations for his team 3 straight seasons and can't even get to its Conference Championship and he is still held in high regard.

 

GM wins a championship for a franchise that hasn't seen a title since 1917 and then follows it up with 2 "disappointing" season (90 wins is tough to come by) and this GM is all of a sudden an idiot. I'm not saying but I'm just saying.

 

 

On KW- 1st get your facts straight, Konerko was acquired in 1998 by Ron Schueler not Kenny. Kenny deserves blame for the underachieving of 2007 but to go as far as to say he sucks is asinine. Be hungry for a championship but lets get into the season 1st then if the team is not good call for his head. WE ARE NOT THE YANKEES- We are not even the MARLINS.

 

[southsider2k5]

Ron Schueler's teams were 78 games over .500 in 10 years with the White Sox. If there was no strike in 1994, chances are they would have played out the string that year better than .500 which means that 78 is low. KW's teams are 54 games over .500 in 7 seasons as GM. Schueler's teams made the postseason twice, and perhaps would have made it 3 times if not for a strike. KW's teams have made it once. KW does have the only title, but really its a GMs job to get the team to be good enough over the 6 month season and hope they get the breaks in the playoffs ie you could hardly call Walt Jocketty Executive of the Year in 2006 for putting together a team that won 83 games made the playoffs and won the WS.

What I'm getting at is Schueler's record as a GM as far as results and condition of the organization is just as good as KW's. Schueler quit because he wanted to be a scout. JR did proclaim Schueler was the White Sox GM as long as he wanted to be the White Sox GM. JR has a lot of influence around baseball. Schueler has tried but cannot get another GM job.

SS2K5 has a quote about the "defeatist attitude" in his signature. Its a quote from KW. Saying a year is successful because the White Sox finish 8 games above .500 and come in second or third is exactly what even he is talking about. There really is no reason the White Sox should not have dominated the Central Division the past 6 or 7 years. NONE. They had as many or more resources as any team in their division. Cleveland and Detroit and if you think about it even Minnesota went through almost total rebuilds. KC is KC but 1 playoff appearance in 7 years for KW. Its really not that impressive, and if someday he decides to quit his current job, I think he'll probably have the same results as Schueler if a year or so later, he wants back in.

KW is a blowhard and some still buy his act. He still talks down to everyone like he has all the answers. Last week he went to the " if we did what the public wanted" routine again. He needs to look in the mirror. He has a team that lost 90 games. Still drew one of the highest attendance figures in team history, and he only has $.50. Looks like the fans weren't the only ones wrong about where to throw money.

 

How completely self-contradictary can you be in the same post? If winning the World Series is all that matter, Williams is the only successful GM we have had in the last 90 years. That means the rest of that crap about playoff appearences and wins is completely meaningless. Which one is it: wins, playoff appearences, or World Championships that matter?

 

The problem is you keep moving the bar to paint Williams in a bad light no matter what the standard is. We know you hate Kenny Williams. I don't know if he kicked your dog, slammed your Sun Times column, or sent you Mike Sirotka, but the whole Williams Sucks stampede is so over-played it is boring. We get it, give it a rest.

[heirdog]

Jordan without Pippen= Zero Championships

Jordan without Pippen= Getting beat 4 straight vs. the Lakers because the Bulls could guard "tragic" Johnson without Scottie.

Jordan without Pippen= Triple teams and 2007 Kobe

Paxson gets so much of a pass here in Chicago. Signing Ben Wallace for way too much money and years, letting go of Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry (which are the exact players the Bulls need), and not finding a way to get Kobe Bryant on this 2007 Bulls team is terrible.

 

You clearly are missing my point. Yes, we needed Pippen and all the other players to win but the Pippen without Jordan = zero championships and zero trips to the finals. Maybe a few playoff wins but that's it.

 

Let's not lose focus that we had the greatest player ever to play...not arguably the best player currently but the greatest player ever.

 

You can go through and say all of these things about how Pippen was the key (and I agree to a degree) but we could much more easily replace Pippen with another player of equal caliber and still win...there was no one in Jordan's stratosphere.

 

About my facts, I was wrong about Konerko but my point was he knew to hang on to Konerko even though he struggled and then was inconsistent. In either case, he made all the right moves in 2005.

 

And finally, don't take a post so personally...I sense some irritation in your post but not sure why...this is an opinion and fact board so why get so hot under the collar if someone does not agree with you?

[Dick Allen]

How completely self-contradictary can you be in the same post? If winning the World Series is all that matter, Williams is the only successful GM we have had in the last 90 years. That means the rest of that crap about playoff appearences and wins is completely meaningless. Which one is it: wins, playoff appearences, or World Championships that matter?

 

The problem is you keep moving the bar to paint Williams in a bad light no matter what the standard is. We know you hate Kenny Williams. I don't know if he kicked your dog, slammed your Sun Times column, or sent you Mike Sirotka, but the whole Williams Sucks stampede is so over-played it is boring. We get it, give it a rest.

Where was I contradictory? I pointed out its a GM's job to get his team to the playoffs. After that its a crapshoot. See the 2006 Cardinals. That's always been my stance.

[gosox41]

How completely self-contradictary can you be in the same post? If winning the World Series is all that matter, Williams is the only successful GM we have had in the last 90 years. That means the rest of that crap about playoff appearences and wins is completely meaningless. Which one is it: wins, playoff appearences, or World Championships that matter?

 

 

I see his point. The point is that the playoffs are a lot about luck... the hard part is getting there. KW has to put this team in position to get there every year and based on how the division was set up from 2002-2006 the Sox should have had a lot more then one playoff appearnce. The team had the highest payroll in the division and KW inherited a division winning team. He didn't start at ground zero.

 

So as I've said in many other posts, KW gets 2008 IMHO. If this team loses 90 games then or is under .500 he should be fired as he chose to go for it rather then rebuild. KW had 3 years after the '05 championship to do something good. He had one great half in 2006. Hopefully '08 will be a success (ie at the very least the Sox contending for hte playoffs) or if not he's given the fans 2 1/2 years of bad baseball with a $100 mill payroll, which would now be the second highest in the division.

 

 

 

Bob

 

[iamshack]

Where was I contradictory? I pointed out its a GM's job to get his team to the playoffs. After that its a crapshoot. See the 2006 Cardinals. That's always been my stance.

 

No.

 

The GM's job is to put together a TEAM that can get ITSELF to the playoffs. A team composed of players that PERFORM well enough to reach the playoffs. The GM does not throw a pitch, swing a bat, play the field, or throw anyone out at first. The GM assembles the best team possible with the resources available to him.

 

Kenny, for the large part over his tenure, has done exactly that. He has put this team and these players in position to win this division by PERFORMING well enough SEVERAL times throughout this decade. Unfortunately for him and us, the players he has put on the field have not performed well enough to win the division several years where it was far more talented than any opposition.

 

Finally, after the 04' season, Kenny was forced to let Magglio walk and the Carlos Lee trade, in hindsight, probably could have brought back more talent (oh, how it would have been nice to have gotten Gallardo). However, the trade ultimately paid immediate dividends in bringing back some pieces that helped us win in 05' (both in trade and in clearing salary). After 05' Kenny strengthened the team by adding Thome and Vazquez, and all looked great heading into the ASB. And it's difficult to argue that not having an average hitting CF was hurting us, because we did quite well despite BA's poor performance. Unfortunately, the 06' team collapsed in the second half despite adding MacDougal to the bullpen. Neal Cotts, Bobby Jenks, Brandon McCarthy, David Riske, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Contreras all had absolutely terrible second halves. I'm just not sure what Kenny could have done to counteract fall-offs by so many pitchers.

 

Going into 07', Kenny added several bullpen arms, while trading away some of those that failed us- Riske, Cotts, and McCarthy. Fans were clamoring for a new CF'er, but the few available options were signed to dramatically over-priced contracts, including Juan Pierre and Dave Roberts, and their were no "easy" fixes. Rather than handcuff or "strangle" the payroll, as one poster likes to accuse him of doing, Kenny wisely stood pat and tried to find an internal option.

 

And at first, it looked as though Kenny had pushed the right buttons. The bullpen was one of the bright spots in the month of April, as Aardsma dominated, Masset pitched well in long relief. MacDougal, Logan, and even Andy Sisco pitched very well. Then all began to fall apart again, as Aardsma, MacDougal, Sisco and Masset all pitched terribly in May. And we all know what happened for the rest of the season- the offense never got on track, and the bullpen ended up being quite a disaster.

 

However, these performances by several players don't change the decision to acquire them at the time they were actually acquired. Suddenly, players whose acquisitions were celebrated are no longer desired because of the performance (or lack of) of other players. A team that was viewed as strong and peaking is now viewed as old and past their primes. And what has followed is the leap in logic that the acquisition of these players was the wrong move. That this team never had the talent to win more than the one Series title they did win and therefore, that is the GM's fault. And now that we have nothing to show for our efforts since 05', what Kenny has done is lead the organization down a path of absolute destruction, basically wrecking every facet from top to bottom.

 

What a bunch of nonsense!

 

Many of you fully admit that the 05' team was lucky, or flukish, etc. And I don't necessarily disagree entirely. Yet it is many of these same people who criticize Kenny for improving the team by adding Jim Thome and especially, Javy Vazquez. And now that the team he put on the field has not performed to expectations, he was wrong to have put that team on the field at all. That's not fair judgment- that's revisionist history- that's 20/20 hindsight vision.

 

Meanwhile, the man's only traded away ONE valuable asset from his farm system in his entire tenure- Chris Young. There's been absolutely no one from our system that he's moved that has turned out to burn us other than Young. ONE player. And yet he is criticized to no end for that.

 

I find it extremely difficult to fairly heap too much criticism on Kenny. When you look at some of the teams he has put on the field, the players really haven't gotten the job done for him to get his just due. Certainly they got it done in 05', but there should be more division titles in our trophy case. Perhaps an ALCS trophy as DA says. But I find it difficult to put that blame upon Kenny, considering some of the teams he has assembled.

 

And finally, I find it extremely difficult to believe many of his detractors would have done a whole lot different to actually reach an alternative outcome. It's simple to sit here now and say this move or that move should not have been made. But I can't recall many of the extensions being handed out as very controversial. In sum, we are in the position we are as a ballclub because to a large degree, our players have not gotten the job done in the second half of seasons. Not Kenny Williams.

Edited December 24, 2007 by iamshack