Border Fence Update.

[Texsox]

http://www.themonitor.com/opinion/fence_75...ials_levee.html

 

Basically it's pork. Build the fence on the levees and fix the levees in the process. Funny, this would be the biggest public works project down here in 80 years. Hundreds of millions of dollars. Initially every community on the Rio Grande River came out against it. Now they will line up and figure out how to get a little something in exchange for their cooperation. One thing I can always count on concerning the leaders on the border, they always figure out the angle to get theirs.

 

With respect to Sinatra:

Start spreading the pork, their building today

I want to be a part of it - my pork, my pork

These government rubes, are longing to spend

Let's get to my part of it - my pork, my pork

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

http://www.themonitor.com/opinion/fence_75...ials_levee.html

 

Basically it's pork. Build the fence on the levees and fix the levees in the process. Funny, this would be the biggest public works project down here in 80 years. Hundreds of millions of dollars. Initially every community on the Rio Grande River came out against it. Now they will line up and figure out how to get a little something in exchange for their cooperation. One thing I can always count on concerning the leaders on the border, they always figure out the angle to get theirs.

 

With respect to Sinatra:

Start spreading the pork, their building today

I want to be a part of it - my pork, my pork

These government rubes, are longing to spend

Let's get to my part of it - my pork, my pork

 

Funny how you choose to label as pork something that protects our country from the daily invasion of foreign nationals as "pork" when there's billions of dollars in really useless spending out there for you to rail against. But then you actually believe their presence benefits us anyhow so I guess its natural.

[jasonxctf]

daily invasion of foreign nationals

 

[Texsox]

Funny how you choose to label as pork something that protects our country from the daily invasion of foreign nationals as "pork" when there's billions of dollars in really useless spending out there for you to rail against. But then you actually believe their presence benefits us anyhow so I guess its natural.

 

The levee repairs and other projects that are getting tacked on is the pork. Sorry, I thought I was clear. I assumed people would read the article linked. My mistake.

 

This fence will also protect is from illegal drugs, premature aging, and skunky beer.

[santo=dorf]

If they want to cut costs, maybe they should consider hiring illegals to build it, again.

[Texsox]

If they want to cut costs, maybe they should consider hiring illegals to build it, again.

 

That is an old joke here. The fence, if built, will be built by Mexicans, and some will have questionable documentation, or, at a much higher cost, the contractors will have to bring in workers and pay to keep them here. This thing is going to cost billions.

[Balta1701]

The levee repairs and other projects that are getting tacked on is the pork. Sorry, I thought I was clear. I assumed people would read the article linked. My mistake.

Hmph, levee repair, yeah, what a waste of money. This country's levee systems are fine.

[Texsox]

Hmph, levee repair, yeah, what a waste of money. This country's levee systems are fine.

Yes, and it shouldn't take a fence to get them fixed. They should be fixed on their own merit, or not, again based on their own merit.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

 

 

Something you don't understand about that statement?

[YASNY]

I'm sure the cost of the fence will keep rising and rising. We all know that these type of things always go that route. What will happen though if we don't stem the tide of undocumented illegals flooding into the country will be the costs of 'entitlements' being sucked up by the illegals and their anchor babies, and their contributions to the national cofeers being a fraction of what is being paid by good old John Doe, American.

[southsider2k5]

I'm sure the cost of the fence will keep rising and rising. We all know that these type of things always go that route. What will happen though if we don't stem the tide of undocumented illegals flooding into the country will be the costs of 'entitlements' being sucked up by the illegals and their anchor babies, and their contributions to the national cofeers being a fraction of what is being paid by good old John Doe, American.

 

Seriously, who exactly is surprised at this story? Local corruption and cost overruns... Boy, stop me if you have heard this one before.

[EvilMonkey]

Seriously, who exactly is surprised at this story? Local corruption and cost overruns... Boy, stop me if you have heard this one before.

The fun part will be when those who are against the fence want to use that as a reason to stop building it. Sure, if local corruption and cost overruns are reason enough to end a government project, lets just keep that thought going and end a whole lot more government projects with corruption and cost overruns. Might be kinda hard to find another one, though, you know how efficient our government is.

[jasonxctf]

Something you don't understand about that statement?

 

 

im just curious about your position about building a fence along the border of Canada. My memory may be a bit hazzy as it is Monday morning, but I believe none of the 19 hijackers on 9-11 came in from Mexico, correct?

 

[Texsox]

I'm sure the cost of the fence will keep rising and rising. We all know that these type of things always go that route. What will happen though if we don't stem the tide of undocumented illegals flooding into the country will be the costs of 'entitlements' being sucked up by the illegals and their anchor babies, and their contributions to the national cofeers being a fraction of what is being paid by good old John Doe, American.

 

When the jobs go from off the books to on the books, more people will qualify for benefits. That is why this hasn't been fixed.

 

People working for $7 per hour will take more then they pay in benefits. No matter who is working the job. The wages determine what programs you are eligible for. That is why a guest worker program, with scaled down benefits, has the least negative impact. The lowest is continuing with illegals like we have for decades and decades.

[Texsox]

The fun part will be when those who are against the fence want to use that as a reason to stop building it. Sure, if local corruption and cost overruns are reason enough to end a government project, lets just keep that thought going and end a whole lot more government projects with corruption and cost overruns. Might be kinda hard to find another one, though, you know how efficient our government is.

 

Not local corruption, there are good projects up and down the border that have needed done. This will be the excuse to finally get them done, like levee repair. It's just a shame that this can't be done based on their own merits, instead of getting tacked onto the fence bill. They are also talking about compensating the ranchers and farmers for their lands and businesses that will be destroyed, which will really raise the price on this. If you were losing your business, you would want more than just the land cost, you would want the cost of your business as well. The ag industry on the river pulls all their water from the river. Without access to their valves and controls, it's all over for them.

[NorthSideSox72]

Wall = hundreds of billions of dollars and probably decades to build, further damages our international image, and still won't keep many of them out.

 

Virtual wall combined with demand-side measures and enforcement of existing laws = fraction of the cost, and more effective.

 

Pretty simple, really.

 

[EvilMonkey]

People working for $7 per hour will take more then they pay in benefits. No matter who is working the job.

However, the AMERICANS who would now be filling these jobs are ALREADY getting the benefits because they are poor, unemployed, etc. So any income they make is a positive.

[Texsox]

Wall = hundreds of billions of dollars and probably decades to build, further damages our international image, and still won't keep many of them out.

 

Virtual wall combined with demand-side measures and enforcement of existing laws = fraction of the cost, and more effective.

 

Pretty simple, really.

 

I would only expand on the demand side and mention all immigration has to be tied to jobs. No means of support, no immigration. I would even be interested in seeing some staged benefit approach. You qualify for this right away (many health benefits for one) and others after some period of time (college Pell grants maybe?)

 

We also need some government clearing house where once an employer receives word that this employee is legal to work, they can't be charged later with hiring illegals.

[Texsox]

However, the AMERICANS who would now be filling these jobs are ALREADY getting the benefits because they are poor, unemployed, etc. So any income they make is a positive.

If we had high unemployment, I would agree.

 

But it isn't that simple. First off, many of these jobs are seasonal and finding Americans wiling to "follow the crops" has proven almost impossible. Many of the unemployed are skilled professionals, a computer programmer taking a job for two months packing oranges or shrimping, when they could be finding a "real" job, doesn't make sense. If you were an employer would you rather have experienced, willing employees, or someone working until they could find something better or forced to work there?

 

IN the ag industry the unemployed person would have to move to the job. Think about an unemployed guy in Chicago, do you think he will move to Idaho to work on a corporate farm? I'm guessing he would have to be forced, and that is not good for the company paying the man's wages.

 

I just find it hard to believe there are 5 million unemployed Americans that can't find jobs as yardmen and dishwashers. I see ads all the time in my newspaper for these jobs.

 

We have the employees here. We need a guest worker program that works.

[southsider2k5]

Wall = hundreds of billions of dollars and probably decades to build, further damages our international image, and still won't keep many of them out.

 

Virtual wall combined with demand-side measures and enforcement of existing laws = fraction of the cost, and more effective.

 

Pretty simple, really.

 

There is the home run, right there. You get rid of the reward, there will be no demand. Period.

[NorthSideSox72]

I would only expand on the demand side and mention all immigration has to be tied to jobs. No means of support, no immigration. I would even be interested in seeing some staged benefit approach. You qualify for this right away (many health benefits for one) and others after some period of time (college Pell grants maybe?)

 

We also need some government clearing house where once an employer receives word that this employee is legal to work, they can't be charged later with hiring illegals.

The demand side is key, just as others here state. But I do think that even if you fully address that, some people will still be desperate enough to come over and hope for a miracle. So I do think strengthening the border is a good idea. I just think a huge, expensive and ineffective wall is not the right way to go about it.

 

[EvilMonkey]

The demand side is key, just as others here state. But I do think that even if you fully address that, some people will still be desperate enough to come over and hope for a miracle. So I do think strengthening the border is a good idea. I just think a huge, expensive and ineffective wall is not the right way to go about it.

Believe it or not, many who currently support the 'huge, expensive wall' would probably agree with you. However, knowing how inept the government is at most things, a static wall would probably work better than a virtual one, which would depend on human oversite to work properly. A real wall wouldn't have to depend on prosecutors and LEOs actually doing their jobs and arresting and charging people and businesses with crimes who violate the existing laws. If the current LEO structure would show some balls about enforcing the current laws,you wouldn't have such a push for a real wall.

Edited December 24, 2007 by Alpha Dog

[NorthSideSox72]

Believe it or not, many who currently support the 'huge, expensive wall' would probably agree with you. However, knowing how inept the government is at most things, a static wall would probably work better than a virtual one, which would depend on human oversite to work properly. A real wall wouldn't have to depend on prosecutors and LEOs actually doing their jobs and arresting and charging people and businesses with crimes who violate the existing laws. If the current LEO structure would show some balls about enforcing the current laws,you wouldn't have such a push for a real wall.

I don't really agree. First, that same inept government would have to build it. That alone will do ridiculous things to the cost - and the maintenance. Second, I don't see these border runners as being prosecuted - just caught and returned. And third, you'd still have to have the surveillance and telemetry, as well as the patrols, even WITH the real wall.

 

But I do think you're right about enforcing current laws, when it comes to dealing with those who already got in. In my view though, it isn't a lack of desire to do so that is the problem - its usually a matter of law enforcement agencies being stretched too thin. I don't think its a lack of "balls".

 

[Texsox]

The "problem" is we need temporary workers, and our immigration system has not officially recognized and made provisions for it. The "solution" for 100 years has been to ignore the illegals pouring across the border each spring. Now that politicians smell votes, we have some action. Unfortunately, so far, none of the solutions fixes the root problem that faces American businesses.

 

Alpha, would you rather have employees who are eager and willing to work, or someone who is working because their unemployment benefits ran out and they are now forced to take a job? Or someone who is interviewing every night trying to find a job in their field? Would you rather welcome back for three months a family that has been working for you for 30 years or each year have a new crop of unemployed who are willing to work?

 

I'd rather we spend money to figure out how to get third generation unemployed productive then stop third generation workers from working.

 

The biggest difference is for most of you here, "illegals" are mythical people you read about. I know several personally. I know many of their kids and grandkids. All they wanted to do was follow the crops and make enough to survive through the winter and build a better life. They work for 6 months and return to Mexico. They didn't expect anything they didn't work for. Then people started showing up and "helping" them. At first it seemed like heaven sent. Now, it appears those same people wanting to help, have hurt, but offering services that others don't think are deserved.

 

I'm all for locking up those that have committed violent crimes, who have stole, driven drunk, and a myriad of other skills. Send back those that can not support themselves. But those that have been earning their pay, not bothering anyone, let's find a way to keep them here.

 

I've asked this ten times and no one has an answer, the citrus industry needs close to 5,000 workers here for the next 3 months. Then there are no jobs until next December. Who will arrive to work these jobs? Should we pay unemployment the other 9 months? Ever since John Shary first cultivated citrus here in the Rio Grande Valley, we've employed temporary laborers from across the river. Some of these illegals live close enough to sleep in their own beds each night, others traveled hundreds of miles. Send us your unemployed middle manager, your IT professional, your school teachers, they can earn $8 per bushel picking. Have your children skip out on school.

 

How many golf courses need maintenance workers from April to November, where do those workers go in the winter? Most Americans do not want those jobs, but we have a very willing work force, who have demonstrated they can do the job.

 

Let's find a way to make them legal. To tie immigration to jobs. To offer limited benefits.

[EvilMonkey]

The "problem" is we need temporary workers, and our immigration system has not officially recognized and made provisions for it. The "solution" for 100 years has been to ignore the illegals pouring across the border each spring. Now that politicians smell votes, we have some action. Unfortunately, so far, none of the solutions fixes the root problem that faces American businesses.

 

Alpha, would you rather have employees who are eager and willing to work, or someone who is working because their unemployment benefits ran out and they are now forced to take a job? Or someone who is interviewing every night trying to find a job in their field? Would you rather welcome back for three months a family that has been working for you for 30 years or each year have a new crop of unemployed who are willing to work?

 

I'd rather we spend money to figure out how to get third generation unemployed productive then stop third generation workers from working.

 

The biggest difference is for most of you here, "illegals" are mythical people you read about. I know several personally. I know many of their kids and grandkids. All they wanted to do was follow the crops and make enough to survive through the winter and build a better life. They work for 6 months and return to Mexico. They didn't expect anything they didn't work for. Then people started showing up and "helping" them. At first it seemed like heaven sent. Now, it appears those same people wanting to help, have hurt, but offering services that others don't think are deserved.

 

I'm all for locking up those that have committed violent crimes, who have stole, driven drunk, and a myriad of other skills. Send back those that can not support themselves. But those that have been earning their pay, not bothering anyone, let's find a way to keep them here.

 

I've asked this ten times and no one has an answer, the citrus industry needs close to 5,000 workers here for the next 3 months. Then there are no jobs until next December. Who will arrive to work these jobs? Should we pay unemployment the other 9 months? Ever since John Shary first cultivated citrus here in the Rio Grande Valley, we've employed temporary laborers from across the river. Some of these illegals live close enough to sleep in their own beds each night, others traveled hundreds of miles. Send us your unemployed middle manager, your IT professional, your school teachers, they can earn $8 per bushel picking. Have your children skip out on school.

 

How many golf courses need maintenance workers from April to November, where do those workers go in the winter? Most Americans do not want those jobs, but we have a very willing work force, who have demonstrated they can do the job.

 

Let's find a way to make them legal. To tie immigration to jobs. To offer limited benefits.

Tex, every time an immigration post comes up, you throw this same stuff out. I, along with just about everyone else who has posted about immigration, is in favor of some sort of a guest worker program. Just because we don't genuflect to it every time we mention that we want the lawbreakers to go home doesn't mean in some small part we aren't on the same page. Yes, the government needs to get its head out of its ass and find a way to make a workable program for workers to fill those jobs. However the 'other' jobs that illegals do, like meat packing plants, warehouse jobs, etc, there are plenty of Americans who can, and will, do those jobs if available. I seem to recall when the Swift plants were raided and 30%+ of their workforce was arrested or disappeared, there was a huge line of people waiting to take those jobs, who were not from Mexico.

 

As for sending you our unemployed IT professionals, etc, how about I trade you the Mexican working the drive thru at my local McDonalds who can barely seem to understand "I would like 1 large vanilla shake please", and I will have the unemployed IT guy work the drive thru for the $8 per hour they are paying.