KW Employment Poll

[bschmaranz]

I'm still waiting for the "KW is on a massive ego trip that will not end and should be fired" option.

[spiderman]

There wasn't an option for me so I couldn't vote. Kenny should not be fired, but he should be scrutinized.

[iamshack]

GP,

I was the one who asked you to list the things you did like about the "Organization." And I clearly meant players, as they really are the core of the organization. But the reason I phrased the question that way is because I was honestly wondering what it was that brings you here. I was thinking maybe you grew up in Charlotte and loved the Knights or something. Because honestly, sometimes it makes me wonder how you could watch this team. How you could come to soxtalk. Why you even waste your efforts worrying about this team when the overwhelming majority of your comments and your outlook is negative.

 

And of course, the answer you basically gave is that you like the hot dogs.

[southsider2k5]

Maybe its just 80% of the posts regarding Williams are about firing him...

[striker]

KW has fielded some great teams (2003, 2005, 2006, 2007), but the players haven't gotten the job done. I like what he's done this offseason too.

[ZoomSlowik]

3 choices for fired, and only one for giving him more time?

 

I would've chose something along the lines of: KW is mediocre, give him one more year.

 

I agree with that entirely, and that's what I would have picked. I don't think he's great, but I think he's decent and deserves at least this year to see if they make any progress from last year. His team did win it all and for most of this decade he put together competitive teams on paper that fell short on the field (2003 and 2006 especially looked like real contenders but failed to finish the job). 2007 was the first year I really started to have doubts, as the team had clear issues that went unresolved going into the year.

Edited December 26, 2007 by ZoomSlowik

[Gregory Pratt]

GP,

I was the one who asked you to list the things you did like about the "Organization." And I clearly meant players, as they really are the core of the organization. But the reason I phrased the question that way is because I was honestly wondering what it was that brings you here. I was thinking maybe you grew up in Charlotte and loved the Knights or something. Because honestly, sometimes it makes me wonder how you could watch this team. How you could come to soxtalk. Why you even waste your efforts worrying about this team when the overwhelming majority of your comments and your outlook is negative.

 

And of course, the answer you basically gave is that you like the hot dogs.

 

I don't think it was 'clear" you were talking about the players, especially since you mentioned Ozzie I thought it was a question about the organization itself. You don't agree it was an honest interpretation? If I recall correctly, you didn't say "Is there anything about the team you like?"

 

I have trouble deciding how to respond to the rest of that..post. I mean, what can I say? What am I supposed to say? "You don't like the White Sox because you're critical of KW/JR. Or it seems like it." What do you want me to say? I still watch almost every single game -- the only times I didn't last year were when out on dates or a couple of times I was so tired from my baseball season that I passed out on my bed, and even then the White Sox were what was on my TV when I woke up two hours later. I'll watch or listen to every single Sox game next year and always cheer for them. I'll attend several games, as many as a busy College kid can realistically attend and more. I mean, I am critical of the organization because I feel they don't do a good job with the team I grew up loving and still do. You can question my fandom all you want, that's your right. I resent the line of questioning, but I don't begrudge you that right anymore than it's my right to love the team and the joys of attending a White Sox baseball game, even if I am a little negative.

[Hatchetman]

Don't be so sensitive GP. When logic fails some pull out the old, "well, you're not a true fan!"

 

Why are you questioning the admisitration? Do you not TRUST them? Are you not LOYAL? You are not a TRUE FAN. You are probably a LIBERAL!

[iamshack]

I don't think it was 'clear" you were talking about the players, especially since you mentioned Ozzie I thought it was a question about the organization itself. You don't agree it was an honest interpretation? If I recall correctly, you didn't say "Is there anything about the team you like?"

 

I have trouble deciding how to respond to the rest of that..post. I mean, what can I say? What am I supposed to say? "You don't like the White Sox because you're critical of KW/JR. Or it seems like it." What do you want me to say? I still watch almost every single game -- the only times I didn't last year were when out on dates or a couple of times I was so tired from my baseball season that I passed out on my bed, and even then the White Sox were what was on my TV when I woke up two hours later. I'll watch or listen to every single Sox game next year and always cheer for them. I'll attend several games, as many as a busy College kid can realistically attend and more. I mean, I am critical of the organization because I feel they don't do a good job with the team I grew up loving and still do. You can question my fandom all you want, that's your right. I resent the line of questioning, but I don't begrudge you that right anymore than it's my right to love the team and the joys of attending a White Sox baseball game, even if I am a little negative.

 

No, I'm honestly not questioning your "fandom." I believe you love this team every bit as much as the next person around here. What I am asking you is "why"? And I am not trying to be a smart ass. It's just that when nearly every post or comment is something negative about someone, it gets a little lost on me why it is you actually like the team? And with you and DA, it's reached the point where every acquisition or other decision that is made is immediately criticized or negatively evaluated, as if you have been conditioned to take such a position by the echoes of eachother's posts bouncing off the walls of Soxtalk. I just don't understand it...

[Gregory Pratt]

I don't know how to answer that, either. "Why" do I post on SoxTalk? Like anyone, it's a message board to hang around; I get good news from this site, re: baseball. I like a lot of the people here. It's my team, and it's a better board than all the other Sox boards in my opinion. It's good to follow the team and sometimes I learn things from people here. Other times, I don't.

[Dick Allen]

No, I'm honestly not questioning your "fandom." I believe you love this team every bit as much as the next person around here. What I am asking you is "why"? And I am not trying to be a smart ass. It's just that when nearly every post or comment is something negative about someone, it gets a little lost on me why it is you actually like the team? And with you and DA, it's reached the point where every acquisition or other decision that is made is immediately criticized or negatively evaluated, as if you have been conditioned to take such a position by the echoes of eachother's posts bouncing off the walls of Soxtalk. I just don't understand it...

BS. I've said several moves have been good. While I don't necessarily agree that Linebrink is the guy who fits the White Sox bullpen and really question what he has left, I said KW had to do it. I've supported players on this site who have been ripped apart. I like Uribe better than most, and have even defended Jim Thome who gets ripped on this board. I thought the Garcia trade was decent. I initially agreed with the Garland trade, believing more pitching was on the way, but switched when Gavin Floyd and John Danks were then being counted on to man 40% of the rotation.What's wrong with stating you disagree with a move? What makes it so enjoyable to numb your mind and just agree with every move a guy makes? That's what's happened on the other side of town, and as soon as the White Sox won, that stopped, and guess what, better players are now in place for them. Why is it wrong to criticize moves, but not wrong to always agree with KW? The proof is in the pudding. The team has been lousy for a season and a half.

[fathom]

BS. I've said several moves have been good. While I don't necessarily agree that Linebrink is the guy who fits the White Sox bullpen and really question what he has left, I said KW had to do it. I've supported players on this site who have been ripped apart. I like Uribe better than most, and have even defended Jim Thome who gets ripped on this board. I thought the Garcia trade was decent. I initially agreed with the Garland trade, believing more pitching was on the way, but switched when Gavin Floyd and John Danks were then being counted on to man 40% of the rotation.What's wrong with stating you disagree with a move? What makes it so enjoyable to numb your mind and just agree with every move a guy makes? That's what's happened on the other side of town, and as soon as the White Sox won, that stopped, and guess what, better players are now in place for them. Why is it wrong to criticize moves, but not wrong to always agree with KW? The proof is in the pudding. The team has been lousy for a season and a half.

 

You're also the only person who has supported Contreras over the last year.

[santo=dorf]

You're also the only person who has supported Contreras over the last year.

Ahem.

 

This poll would've been better with two options. 1 with what you think of him, and the other about his employment.

 

Decent, and should stay.

[iamshack]

You're also the only person who has supported Contreras over the last year.

 

#1, I am also a big supporter of Contreras.

[iamshack]

BS. I've said several moves have been good. While I don't necessarily agree that Linebrink is the guy who fits the White Sox bullpen and really question what he has left, I said KW had to do it. I've supported players on this site who have been ripped apart. I like Uribe better than most, and have even defended Jim Thome who gets ripped on this board. I thought the Garcia trade was decent. I initially agreed with the Garland trade, believing more pitching was on the way, but switched when Gavin Floyd and John Danks were then being counted on to man 40% of the rotation.What's wrong with stating you disagree with a move? What makes it so enjoyable to numb your mind and just agree with every move a guy makes? That's what's happened on the other side of town, and as soon as the White Sox won, that stopped, and guess what, better players are now in place for them. Why is it wrong to criticize moves, but not wrong to always agree with KW? The proof is in the pudding. The team has been lousy for a season and a half.

 

#2, Then why don't you ever give the guy credit for making those moves? How does a collection of "several good moves" not improve the guy's stature with you? I know you characterize me as someone who "always agrees with KW." And for the most part, I do agree with a majority of what the guy has done. But are there moves that I would like him to make that he doesn't? Of course! Are there moves he makes that I would rather he not have made? Of course! (For instance, I don't particularly care for the Linebrink signing- I still think the better move is to deal for young, cheap bullpen arms (we just need better scouting) I also didn't like the fact that Kenny acquired OCab before having Hunter signed, but hey, what good is screaming about it going to do anyone?). But that doesn't stop you from characterizing me as "agreeing with everything" he does, does it? No. The point is, for the most part, I agree with his philosophy, his ideas, his moves, etc. You and GP disagree with those things. And that's fine.

 

But where my questions come in are here: I come here because I love the team, I enjoy reading about them, I love our Owner, I love our GM, I love just about everything about the organization with the exception of it's mainstream fans (whom I have criticized several times on Soxtalk). You and GP come here and basically repeat ad nauseum that KW is a completely ignorant fool, the organization is a disastrous mess, etc.

 

The entire point of my question to GP was to find out what it is that he is positive about when it comes to the White Sox, perhaps so we could discuss some of those things as well, instead of us both beating a dead horse from opposite ends. And I still haven't really gotten an answer yet.

Edited December 26, 2007 by iamshack

[Gregory Pratt]

#2, Then why don't you ever give the guy credit for making those moves? How does a collection of "several good moves" not improve the guy's stature with you? I know you characterize me as someone who "always agrees with KW." And for the most part, I do agree with a majority of what the guy has done. But are there moves that I would like him to make that he doesn't? Of course! Are there moves he makes that I would rather he not have made? Of course! But that doesn't stop you from characterizing me as "agreeing with everything" he does, does it? No. The point is, for the most part, I agree with his philosophy, his ideas, his moves, etc. You and GP disagree with those things. And that's fine.

 

But where my questions come in are here: I come here because I love the team, I enjoy reading about them, I love our Owner, I love our GM, I love just about everything about the organization with the exception of it's mainstream fans (whom I have criticized several times on Soxtalk). You and GP come here and basically repeat ad nauseum that KW is a completely ignorant fool, the organization is a disastrous mess, etc.

 

The entire point of my question to GP was to find out what it is that he is positive about when it comes to the White Sox, perhaps so we could discuss some of those things as well, instead of us both beating a dead horse from opposite ends. And I still haven't really gotten an answer yet.

 

I like the Quintin pickup. I think we've got a couple of young guys who could be very valuable to have in the coming years in Danks, Fields and Quintin, but I'm also hesitant to anoint them as anything special because Fields has to survive his second season, Q. has to live up and Danks - well, you know about pitchers. Still, I think there were more quality pieces to play with. I wish, I mean.

[iamshack]

I like the Quintin pickup. I think we've got a couple of young guys who could be very valuable to have in the coming years in Danks, Fields and Quintin, but I'm also hesitant to anoint them as anything special because Fields has to survive his second season, Q. has to live up and Danks - well, you know about pitchers. Still, I think there were more quality pieces to play with. I wish, I mean.

 

Well that's good to hear. I like Quentin alot, Danks I am a bit disappointed in, and Fields, well, I wish we would have dealt him for a more established star, but hey, the Marlins HAD to have Cameron Maybin...I can't wait to see Gio pitch for the big club, I'm excited that DLS came out of nowhere to become a BP 5-star prospect, I like they we finally have a few ss's in the system that could actually become good players (even though they are at least 3 years away or so), and I am also excited to watch Gavin Floyd some more this season. I think he's really going to surprise a lot of us.

 

Another question for GP and DA: Where were you guys philosophically on KW after 05'? Skeptical? On his bandwagon? Somewhere in between? I wasn't here then so I'm just interested to know...

[Gregory Pratt]

I liked KW after 05 but I was a sixteen year old kid getting his feet wet. I still "like" a thing or two about KW but not much or overall.

[Dick Allen]

#2, Then why don't you ever give the guy credit for making those moves? How does a collection of "several good moves" not improve the guy's stature with you? I know you characterize me as someone who "always agrees with KW." And for the most part, I do agree with a majority of what the guy has done. But are there moves that I would like him to make that he doesn't? Of course! Are there moves he makes that I would rather he not have made? Of course! But that doesn't stop you from characterizing me as "agreeing with everything" he does, does it? No. The point is, for the most part, I agree with his philosophy, his ideas, his moves, etc. You and GP disagree with those things. And that's fine.

 

But where my questions come in are here: I come here because I love the team, I enjoy reading about them, I love our Owner, I love our GM, I love just about everything about the organization with the exception of it's mainstream fans (whom I have criticized several times on Soxtalk). You and GP come here and basically repeat ad nauseum that KW is a completely ignorant fool, the organization is a disastrous mess, etc.

 

The entire point of my question to GP was to find out what it is that he is positive about when it comes to the White Sox, perhaps so we could discuss some of those things as well, instead of us both beating a dead horse from opposite ends. And I still haven't really gotten an answer yet.

I have. Go back to the threads. GP and fathom are the 2 I have PMs with the most, and I know we are probably known as being the 3 most pessimistic, I respect their opinions but we don't all agree on everything. I respect other's opinions as well, but sometimes the posts to rip us are ridiculous. There are more than a couple people on this site that agree with everything KW does. If he traded Konerko for Matt Murton tonight, there would be guys backing him up on it. I prefer to do my own thinking. Just because I don't think Linebrink fixes the bullpen, just because KW signs another free agent to a 4 year $4.75 million contract and I have a hard time believing he's a savior because I figure if he was he wouldn't be available at that price, and just because I happen to like Uribe and although I think Cabrera is probably better than him, but do think his numbers will probably drop a bit next year, and thinking the difference between Garland and Floyd is too immense to offset the boost in production the White Sox may get out of the SS position, (remember Cabrera has a lifetime .321 OBP, hardly stellar), just because I think Richar has a lot to prove, just because I don't think Carlos Quentin (If you check the thread, I did like the deal) will make a huge impact in 2008, just because I look at the back end of the pitching rotation and see Danks and Floyd and start to cringe, I guess that should make me ineligible to post on a White Sox message board. The reality is this team has been awful for a season and a half. I just fail to see how a GM can have a team with a $108 million payroll, making all the correct moves, yet has a farm system ranked near the bottom of all of baseball and a major league team that was battling for the worst record in all of baseball late in the season.

[Rowand44]

Mediocre but deserves at least this season.

[iamshack]

I have. Go back to the threads. GP and fathom are the 2 I have PMs with the most, and I know we are probably known as being the 3 most pessimistic, I respect their opinions but we don't all agree on everything. I respect other's opinions as well, but sometimes the posts to rip us are ridiculous. There are more than a couple people on this site that agree with everything KW does. If he traded Konerko for Matt Murton tonight, there would be guys backing him up on it. I prefer to do my own thinking. Just because I don't think Linebrink fixes the bullpen, just because KW signs another free agent to a 4 year $4.75 million contract and I have a hard time believing he's a savior because I figure if he was he wouldn't be available at that price, and just because I happen to like Uribe and although I think Cabrera is probably better than him, but do think his numbers will probably drop a bit next year, and thinking the difference between Garland and Floyd is too immense to offset the boost in production the White Sox may get out of the SS position, (remember Cabrera has a lifetime .321 OBP, hardly stellar), just because I think Richar has a lot to prove, just because I don't think Carlos Quentin (If you check the thread, I did like the deal) will make a huge impact in 2008, just because I look at the back end of the pitching rotation and see Danks and Floyd and start to cringe, I guess that should make me ineligible to post on a White Sox message board. The reality is this team has been awful for a season and a half. I just fail to see how a GM can have a team with a $108 million payroll, making all the correct moves, yet has a farm system ranked near the bottom of all of baseball and a major league team that was battling for the worst record in all of baseball late in the season.

 

DA,

The funny thing is, I think we agree on a lot of specific things. I agree with you on a lot of players such as Contreras and Uribe that many posters hate. I love the Quentin deal, but it's not likely he'll have a huge impact in 08'. I worry about Danks and Floyd as well, but I don't see a whole ton of other options available. I'm not sold on OCabrera either, btw, and the timing of that trade was not the brightest.

 

But I think in order to judge the job Kenny has done, you've got to look at the things he's done and the decisions he's made at the time they were done and at the time they were made, and judge him from that perspective. And I have challenged you a number of times to suggest alternate courses of action that could have been taken, and to be brutally honest with you, you're suggestions haven't passed the smell test. You can judge KW all you want for the place we were in on October 4, 2007, but unless you analyze HOW it is that we got there, instead of THAT WE ARE JUST THERE, I think it's overly simplistic and unfair to simply say he's an ignoramus who has done a terrible job the past few years. Sometimes players don't get the job done, and you really don't seem to want to place any of the responsibility or blame on them. I clearly disagree with you there.

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

DA,

The funny thing is, I think we agree on a lot of specific things. I agree with you on a lot of players such as Contreras and Uribe that many posters hate. I love the Quentin deal, but it's not likely he'll have a huge impact in 08'. I worry about Danks and Floyd as well, but I don't see a whole ton of other options available. I'm not sold on OCabrera either, btw, and the timing of that trade was not the brightest.

 

But I think in order to judge the job Kenny has done, you've got to look at the things he's done and the decisions he's made at the time they were done and at the time they were made, and judge him from that perspective. And I have challenged you a number of times to suggest alternate courses of action that could have been taken, and to be brutally honest with you, you're suggestions haven't passed the smell test. You can judge KW all you want for the place we were in on October 4, 2007, but unless you analyze HOW it is that we got there, instead of THAT WE ARE JUST THERE, I think it's overly simplistic and unfair to simply say he's an ignoramus who has done a terrible job the past few years. Sometimes players don't get the job done, and you really don't seem to want to place any of the responsibility or blame on them. I clearly disagree with you there.

KW, the past year or so has been quick to mention after almost every transaction how he always has an eye on the future. Basically, KW did the bulk of his free agent signing during the season with the passing out of extensions. At the time all the extensions got done, except I think they really went overboard on Vazquez but it does appear it could save them money, the contracts, given the state of the current market, were reasonable. But, if you have an eye on the future, and have a system so bare you have to fire a long time employee, so really very little cheap help is imminent, how do you bring back the same core when it appears so obvious their window has closed? Its kind of like buying accessories for $.50 on the $ for say a HDTV. But buying too many, you don't have enough money left over for the TV. What good does it do you? Pitching wins. Can you really say the pitching staff is A) definitely improved, and if the answer is yes B)improved enough to win the 25 or so more games it will take to make the playoffs?

Edited December 27, 2007 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

KW, the past year or so has been quick to mention after almost every transaction how he always has an eye on the future. Basically, KW did the bulk of his free agent signing during the season with the passing out of extensions. At the time all the extensions got done, except I think they really went overboard on Vazquez but it does appear it could save them money, the contracts, given the state of the current market, were reasonable. But, if you have an eye on the future, and have a system so bare you have to fire a long time employee, so really very little cheap help is imminent, how do you bring back the same core when it appears so obvious their window has closed? Its kind of like buying accessories for $.50 on the $ for say a HDTV. But buying too many, you don't have enough money left over for the TV. What good does it do you? Pitching wins. Can you really say the pitching staff is A) definitely improved, and if the answer is yes B)improved enough to win the 25 or so more games it will take to make the playoffs?

 

Well, I agree with most of what you said there...I didn't particularly care for the Dye extension, but if the alternative is one decent prospect, I think you may as well extend them at a decent market rate and then look to move them again sometime later. As for the pitching staff, I really, really don't think that the pitching staff has to win 25 games more for us this season. I think we need improvements from our offense, our bullpen, and our defense as well.

 

Can we make the playoffs this year, I think our chances are worse than they were last season. But I don't think you can judge Kenny simply on whether we make the playoffs this year. If we start out slowly again, I fully expect him to start moving veterans and building towards 09' and 10'. And if he can't get that done, then fine, I'll admit he misinterpreted the landscape and should probably be replaced.

[ptatc]

Someone said 80% of SoxTalk thinks KW is awful/should be fired. I'm curious what the actual numbers are. And I'm voting for mediocre, not "awful".

 

I'm the one who said that and I'm shocked only 47% want him fired. I guess the people who want him fired are just more "vocal"

 

[sircaffey]

Well, I agree with most of what you said there...I didn't particularly care for the Dye extension, but if the alternative is one decent prospect, I think you may as well extend them at a decent market rate and then look to move them again sometime later. As for the pitching staff, I really, really don't think that the pitching staff has to win 25 games more for us this season. I think we need improvements from our offense, our bullpen, and our defense as well.

 

Can we make the playoffs this year, I think our chances are worse than they were last season. But I don't think you can judge Kenny simply on whether we make the playoffs this year. If we start out slowly again, I fully expect him to start moving veterans and building towards 09' and 10'. And if he can't get that done, then fine, I'll admit he misinterpreted the landscape and should probably be replaced.

 

Should be interesting to see KW go from ultra-aggressive to ultra-patient or at least try to do so. Does he have the personality for a rebuild? That's a question needing an answer.