NorthSideSox72 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 06:35 PM) You would also have to take into consideration the possible "improvement" of teams they will face 19 times. Detroit, Cleveland, KC, and perhaps even Minnesota could say they have also "improved." DET and KC definitely. CLE I think stayed the same, if that. MIN has, in my view, gotten worse, and if they trade Santana then who knows. But yes you have to consider that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 05:54 PM) Improvement is there - the potential of the newer players is pretty clearly higher than who they replaced, in my view. But you never know what they will actually do. I never said otherwise. You can't write any of it in pen anyway - its all guesswork. I guess it's all objective anyways. I don't see overall improvement, but that's just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 06:39 PM) DET and KC definitely. CLE I think stayed the same, if that. MIN has, in my view, gotten worse, and if they trade Santana then who knows. But yes you have to consider that. I say CLE will be stronger mainly due to Hafner not possibly being as bad as he was last season. They didn't lose anyone, and improved their pen. Hard to say they'll be worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 08:52 PM) I say CLE will be stronger mainly due to Hafner not possibly being as bad as he was last season. They didn't lose anyone, and improved their pen. Hard to say they'll be worse. And the best that Konerko, Thome and Dye will put up is .274 30 HR's and 96 RBIs? If Hafner will improve over his poor last season whose to say that all three or at least two of three who had poor seasons won't improve. If their players can rebound from poor season why can't the Sox players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(ptatc @ Dec 31, 2007 -> 10:59 AM) And the best that Konerko, Thome and Dye will put up is .274 30 HR's and 96 RBIs? If Hafner will improve over his poor last season whose to say that all three or at least two of three who had poor seasons won't improve. If their players can rebound from poor season why can't the Sox players? Well, to be fair, Hafner is a much better player than both Konerko and Dye. And Thome had a pretty damn good season as is, and considering his age, he shouldn't be expected to increase his numbers. (also, Konerko's season last year was along his career averages, as Dye's was pretty similar to his career average while Hafner was .120 away from his career average OPS) Edited December 31, 2007 by Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 QUOTE(ptatc @ Dec 31, 2007 -> 09:59 AM) And the best that Konerko, Thome and Dye will put up is .274 30 HR's and 96 RBIs? If Hafner will improve over his poor last season whose to say that all three or at least two of three who had poor seasons won't improve. If their players can rebound from poor season why can't the Sox players? When did I say they couldn't? All I said was I thought CLE would be stronger due to Hafner getting back on track. That doesn't involve the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 05:56 PM) The results of this poll are very sad and makes me wonder if our fanbase is as smart as I thought. Most people just realize that a GM who usually fields a winning team and wins a World Series is a successful GM and fans should give him a chance until he has shown that he can't win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisoxt Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 (edited) QUOTE(ptatc @ Dec 31, 2007 -> 07:13 PM) Most people just realize that a GM who usually fields a winning team and wins a World Series is a successful GM and fans should give him a chance until he has shown that he can't win. I think that you answered your own question in that we will probably change GMs when it's clear the team can't win. But at what point is that?. Obviously, Kenny won't be fired this season, but say, next year, if we lose 90-100 games, if our young players like Richar, Danks, Floyd, etc regress, and, if the young guys we traded like Carter and Cunningham flourish, does Kenny get the ax? I say yes. Keep in mind that winning a WC should not give one a lifetime contract. At what point do we stop resting on our laurels? If we are still satisfied with a recent WC, why even watch the team at all anymore? Edited January 1, 2008 by chisoxt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 QUOTE(chisoxt @ Jan 1, 2008 -> 08:23 AM) I think that you answered your own question in that we will probably change GMs when it's clear the team can't win. But at what point is that?. Obviously, Kenny won't be fired this season, but say, next year, if we lose 90-100 games, if our young players like Richar, Danks, Floyd, etc regress, and, if the young guys we traded like Carter and Cunningham flourish, does Kenny get the ax? I say yes. Keep in mind that winning a WC should not give one a lifetime contract. At what point do we stop resting on our laurels? If we are still satisfied with a recent WC, why even watch the team at all anymore? I agree he needs to go if he shows he can't win. Resting on laurels wouldn't qualify after two years when one was a 90 win season. All I'm saying is that a guy who has a winning record and a WS win shouldn't be fired after one 90 loss season. It's up to the individual as to how many poor seasons constitutes a reason to fire a GM. But it's unreasonable to think it should be now. Don't micromanage a person and fire them based on individual moves fire him based on results and so far I don't think KW track record of wins and losses is reason to fire him now. As the saying goes "managers and GMs are hired to be fired." I just don't think there are valid reasons yet. I don't care how the players we traded do for other teams, that just means we drafted well. It's how the Sox do that should determine KWs fate. Don't be afraid to make a trade that will help your team. If you only trade guys that won't do well elsewhere you will never get quality in return. Don't micromanage. Look at the overall results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 QUOTE(ptatc @ Jan 1, 2008 -> 02:20 PM) I agree he needs to go if he shows he can't win. Resting on laurels wouldn't qualify after two years when one was a 90 win season. All I'm saying is that a guy who has a winning record and a WS win shouldn't be fired after one 90 loss season. It's up to the individual as to how many poor seasons constitutes a reason to fire a GM. But it's unreasonable to think it should be now. Don't micromanage a person and fire them based on individual moves fire him based on results and so far I don't think KW track record of wins and losses is reason to fire him now. As the saying goes "managers and GMs are hired to be fired." I just don't think there are valid reasons yet. I don't care how the players we traded do for other teams, that just means we drafted well. It's how the Sox do that should determine KWs fate. Don't be afraid to make a trade that will help your team. If you only trade guys that won't do well elsewhere you will never get quality in return. Don't micromanage. Look at the overall results. It all depends on your definition of "win." Sure KW has a winning record as GM, but he has 1 playoff appearance in 7 years. Not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaus kinski Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 He dismantles more than he builds. Look at the team, and organization. Its well below par Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandy125 Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 05:56 PM) The results of this poll are very sad and makes me wonder if our fanbase is as smart as I thought. That seems like an arrogant statement to make. So, because a majority does not agree with you, they are not "smart"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 QUOTE(vandy125 @ Jan 1, 2008 -> 05:23 PM) That seems like an arrogant statement to make. So, because a majority does not agree with you, they are not "smart"? No worries. See my sig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 1, 2008 -> 02:28 PM) It all depends on your definition of "win." Sure KW has a winning record as GM, but he has 1 playoff appearance in 7 years. Not good. True. It depends on your definition. To me it's winning the WS. He has done that. I really don't care about making the playoffs and getting bounced. Win the WS, nothing else matters. He gets a chance to build it again. If he doesn't make the progress towards winning it again, he's gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Jan 1, 2008 -> 03:46 PM) He dismantles more than he builds. Look at the team, and organization. Its well below par As long as he wins, that should be all that matters. Who cares how he does it. As long as it's within the rules that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palehose23 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 05:56 PM) The results of this poll are very sad and makes me wonder if our fanbase is as smart as I thought. Stop whining because the poll didn't go your way!!! People were ask for their opinion and given 4 choices and they responded- where does intelligence come into to play here? I am sure that most (like me) would have wanted another option such as KW is on the hot seat- and I am pissed but he deserves a chance. Maybe you were under the impression that Sox fans are smarter than any other fandom but the realization is finally hitting you and its a bitter pill to swallow. Hope you have a Happy New Year and let the season play out before you make your judgments on this 08 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 1, 2008 -> 02:28 PM) It all depends on your definition of "win." Sure KW has a winning record as GM, but he has 1 playoff appearance in 7 years. Not good. Plus a 90 win season where the Sox were trounced by a surprising Detroit team and a Minnesota team that played absolutely ridiculous baseball down the stretch, to go along with a 2003 season where the Sox were like literally probably 4 bouncing balls that make it to the outfield away from going to the playoffs. If you deny the thought that Kenny Williams has built some very good teams - which you essentially are with the above statement - then you are basically denying fact. His current team is in the worst shape it has ever been in, so he will be given a shot to put a good team back on the field. I'm not sure he can, but there have been some steps towards improvement over the past 3 months. It's been a pretty crappy offseason, but I'm generally happy with the core group of players towards the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 2, 2008 -> 01:13 AM) Plus a 90 win season where the Sox were trounced by a surprising Detroit team and a Minnesota team that played absolutely ridiculous baseball down the stretch, to go along with a 2003 season where the Sox were like literally probably 4 bouncing balls that make it to the outfield away from going to the playoffs. If you deny the thought that Kenny Williams has built some very good teams - which you essentially are with the above statement - then you are basically denying fact. His current team is in the worst shape it has ever been in, so he will be given a shot to put a good team back on the field. I'm not sure he can, but there have been some steps towards improvement over the past 3 months. It's been a pretty crappy offseason, but I'm generally happy with the core group of players towards the future. I agree about whay Kenny has done thus far, but I disagree with the idea that the current team is in the worst shape its been. The team was far, far worse in late 2007 regular season than it is right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 2, 2008 -> 08:37 AM) I agree about whay Kenny has done thus far, but I disagree with the idea that the current team is in the worst shape its been. The team was far, far worse in late 2007 regular season than it is right now. I think he is treating now, and this past season as basically one in the same, although he admits the latest moves have improved things a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaus kinski Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(iamshack @ Jan 2, 2008 -> 08:59 AM) I think he is treating now, and this past season as basically one in the same, although he admits the latest moves have improved things a bit. Yeah-getting rid of a 200 inning pitcher for a shortstop we have for one year is the high point of his idea of improving. Williams has got to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Jan 2, 2008 -> 09:15 AM) Yeah-getting rid of a 200 inning pitcher for a shortstop we have for one year is the high point of his idea of improving. Williams has got to go What makes you think we'd have that 200 inning pitcher for more than one more year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Jan 2, 2008 -> 09:15 AM) Yeah-getting rid of a 200 inning pitcher for a shortstop we have for one year is the high point of his idea of improving. Williams has got to go The Garland/Cabrera deal is evaluated strictly on opinion as to this point. Using that as criteria for why Williams has to go is difficult to do since we haven't even seen the effects of this deal yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 1, 2008 -> 02:28 PM) It all depends on your definition of "win." Sure KW has a winning record as GM, but he has 1 playoff appearance in 7 years. Not good. Dude, you can't just call it "1 playoff appearance." He won the damn World Series... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(palehose23 @ Jan 2, 2008 -> 12:10 AM) Stop whining because the poll didn't go your way!!! People were ask for their opinion and given 4 choices and they responded- where does intelligence come into to play here? I am sure that most (like me) would have wanted another option such as KW is on the hot seat- and I am pissed but he deserves a chance. Maybe you were under the impression that Sox fans are smarter than any other fandom but the realization is finally hitting you and its a bitter pill to swallow. Hope you have a Happy New Year and let the season play out before you make your judgments on this 08 season. Whining? I'm just sad that our fans aren't all that bright, and yes it's a bitter pill to swallow when I see the majority of our fans are wrong. I hope you have a good excuse after we finish in 4th again this year though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jan 2, 2008 -> 02:52 PM) Whining? I'm just sad that our fans aren't all that bright, and yes it's a bitter pill to swallow when I see the majority of our fans are wrong. I hope you have a good excuse after we finish in 4th again this year though. So let me get this clear then....if you are one who believes Kenny is doing a good job and should stay, then you are "not that bright"? Is that what you are trying to get across here? Any Kenny supporter is not bright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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