White Sox Acquire Nick Swisher from Athletics

[Balta1701]

Call me crazy, but, isn't Thome still an injury risk? So you set your team up with Quentin, Swish, and Dye. Thome gets subbed out every 4 or 5 gms. Dye then moves to DH, Swish to RF, and Owens in CF. And inevitably, Thome or Dye will get slowed down with an injury at some point, so then when one of them does, Owens goes to Center, Swish to RF, and whichever of Dye or Thome DIDn't get injured, DH's.

Sure you can try and trade Dye for some prospects, but then what happens in Thome gets injured again? Pablo Ozuna plays DH?

Well, you're right, Thome is still an injury risk, as is JD while we're at it. But the best answer I can give to that is my classic theory...you can't have Johan Santana stuck in the bullpen just in case one of your starters gets hurt.

 

Injuries will happen, it would be intelligent of us to be careful with JD and Thome to try to minimize them, but they will happen. I think that if/when Thome hits the DL this year, the logical move is Owens moves to starting CF, Swisher moves to either RF/1b, and Konerko/Dye alternate DHing, and you try to get around it as well as you can. You can look at just about any team in baseball and say "Oh, what happens if player X gets hurt, they're screwed". If Thome goes down for the full season for some reason, we're not winning the Central, and we'll probably finish last. If Cabrera goes down for Detroit, they might compete with us for that spot. If Johan went down for the Twins, ditto.

 

You play the guys you have and do the best you can at some level, because you can't just keep talented guys sitting in the dugout in case someone gets hurt.

[CWSGuy406]

Their core offense (Paulie, Thome, Dye, Swisher, Cabrera, Fields, and perhaps Crede) is going to f'n rake this season. That's a VERY strong lineup.

 

No stronger than Boston's, New York's, Detroit's, Cleveland's and maybe even Anahiem's.

 

Way to de-value Paulie, Cabrera, Fields, and Dye to support your argument.

 

I didn't devalue any of them -- you're just overrating them. Konerko has no range at first. His hands are good, but that doesn't make up for the fact that he's a statue there -- he's below average there, not atrocious, but below average. Dye, on the other hand, is atrocious -- I believe most of the advanced metrics had him ranked as one of the worst (if not THE worst) RFer in all of baseball. The matches with what my eyes tell me -- his range is non-existant at this point and it looks like he's running in sand and with two pianos strapped to his back. His arm is still fine, which is why the Sox would be greatly served to put Quentin in RF and Dye in LF. The same goes for Fields, who's instincts looked poor to me except when he had to come in on balls -- those he did okay on. My eyes matched the metrics, as Fields' defensive numbers pro-rated for a whole season were as bad or worse than Ryan Braun's, another terrible defender at third.

 

With Cabrera, I don't see how I devalued him at all. He's a good defensive SS, but again, defense at shortstop hasn't been a problem for the majority of the past five years.

 

The Sox didn't deal projected superstar material to land Swisher. Therefore, I don't see what your problem is.

 

Value-for-value I think the trade is fine. Swisher is a fine ballplayer, and there's a lot of risk (but also a lot of upside) in the players the Sox gave up. My issue goes back to the beginning of the winter when the Sox made the decision to "GO FOR IT!" in 2008. The Sox are still behind at least five other teams as far as talent on the 25-man roster. A lot would have to go right for the Sox to be neck-and-neck with Detroit and Cleveland next September.

 

And they can deal Dye at the deadline in '09 for even more prospects.

 

Sort of like people said they'd do this deadline? Yep, teams were jumping at the gun to trade for Dye -- I'm sure they'll be more willing to do the same for a 35 (?) year old Dye.

[WCSox]

I don't see any value in evaluating prospects based on their trade value a year ago when you can just look at their performance and scouting reports instead. Gio lead the minors in K's so he obviously performed pretty well (though there's room for improvement in some areas) and scouts seem to like him even if they don't love him. DLS is a guy that the scouts do love and he put up impressive numbers last season. I don't think either player is one of the top 20 prospects in baseball but that doesn't mean they don't have worth to the team and couldn't still become very good major league players.

 

Again, Gillick gave up Gio for a washed-up Freddy. That seems to support the notion supported by some here that he's at least somewhat overrated. He'll probably be a halfway decent starter, but we already have Danks, Floyd, and Broadway... along with Mark and Javy under contract for several more years. De Los Santos appears to have highest upside, but he's a good three years away. Sweeney is an afterthought in a suddenly-crowded outfield.

 

I agree we're improved, but I don't think we'll make the playoffs.

 

I agree, but I don't think that's the point of this trade. Swisher's under contract until 2012 and he's only making $6-$8 million/year. It sounds to me like Kenny wants to rebuild around Swisher, regardless of what happens this season.

 

What happens when this push fails and we have a .500 team with a $110 million payroll and no farm system?

 

Our farm system already sucks. Dealing these three guys doesn't change that.

 

What's the worst that can happen? If the Sox fail to make the playoffs this year (which I agree is likely), they deal Paulie and Cabrera at the deadline for prospects to replenish their craphole of a farm system. They can also deal JD for prospects and buy out Thome's option next year to save more money.

 

The real problem with the Sox is that their scouting department is completely f'ed up. I'd rather fix that and try to get by with proven major-league talent in the meantime than put all of my hopes on Gio and DLS with an irrational Ron Schueler-like optimism.

Edited January 4, 2008 by WCSox

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

Again, Gillick gave up Gio for a washed-up Freddy. That seems to support the notion supported by some here that he's at least somewhat overrated. He'll probably be a halfway decent starter, but we already have Danks, Floyd, and Broadway... along with Mark and Javy under contract for several more years. De Los Santos appears to have highest upside, but he's a good three years away. Sweeney is an afterthought in a suddenly-crowded outfield.

I agree, but I don't think that's the point of this trade. Swisher's under contract until 2012 and he's only making $6-$8 million/year. It sounds to me like Kenny wants to rebuild around Swisher, regardless of what happens this season.

Our farm system already sucks. Dealing these three guys doesn't change that.

 

Not to pick on you here, but it seemed that the Soxtalk concensus a few months ago was that Broadway was never going to be anything special. Is the next Soxtalk trend going to be building Broadway as the next savior of the White Sox.

[WCSox]

Value-for-value I think the trade is fine. Swisher is a fine ballplayer, and there's a lot of risk (but also a lot of upside) in the players the Sox gave up. My issue goes back to the beginning of the winter when the Sox made the decision to "GO FOR IT!" in 2008. The Sox are still behind at least five other teams as far as talent on the 25-man roster. A lot would have to go right for the Sox to be neck-and-neck with Detroit and Cleveland next September.

 

The Sox still have a lot of talent on their roster and the Indians and Tigers are far from a lock to make the playoffs next year. Why not go for it, right after you've re-signed your ace and have one more year of Thome and Crede? If it doesn't work out, Paulie and Cabrera can be dealt at the deadline and the rebuilding process starts a few month early. Or would you rather that Kenny held a fire sale right now and pissed off thousands of season-ticket holders? Sounds to me like that would be a poor business decision. And how do you suppose that Mark and JD would react after Kenny sold them on contract extensions by telling them that they were going to go for it again in '08? Reneging on that promise would ruin his credibility and seriously damage his ability to re-sign vets in the future.

 

Edited January 4, 2008 by WCSox

[beck72]

FWIW, Baseball Cube had Swisher with a range factor of 2.62 in CF. Owens had a 2.65, and Rowand had a 2.64 [and 2.57 in '06 and '05]. If Swisher can play CF on a regular basis and not be a butcher out there, it will help the overall lineup for the short term.

[Guest]

his g/f is sooooooo fine!

 

 

http://homerderby.com/wp-content/uploads/2...iellegamba1.jpg

 

 

[Balta1701]

FWIW, Baseball Cube had Swisher with a range factor of 2.62 in CF. Owens had a 2.65, and Rowand had a 2.64 [and 2.57 in '06 and '05]. If Swisher can play CF on a regular basis and not be a butcher out there, it will help the overall lineup for the short term.

I wonder with something like that...how much would RF vary if performance stayed constant moving from park to park? IIRC, Oakland has a pretty big park and is considered a pitcher's park, I wonder if moving to a much smaller OF might give him fewer chances to get to balls because more of them hit the walls.

[Dick Allen]

Swisher will be fun to watch play, but I do caution everyone about how he is signed cheaply. If the pitchers the White Sox give up actually turn out to be decent, remember KW called Gio one of the 2 best lefthanded prospects in baseball and had him penciled as a front of the rotation starter, if Gio actually reaches that, the cost to replace that considering the Carlos Silvas of the world get $45-50 million is going to be large. So while when actually evaluating the Pods/CLee trade you take the money savings into consideration, you also have to consider the cost down the road of replacing these guys. That is of course, if they pan out. In the end pitching is what wins, but for 2008 and maybe even 2009 KW probably gets the best of this deal IMO. I'm a little concerned with Swisher in CF. He's not Carl Everett bad out there, but he isn't going to be helping the pitchers a lot.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Well, you're right, Thome is still an injury risk, as is JD while we're at it. But the best answer I can give to that is my classic theory...you can't have Johan Santana stuck in the bullpen just in case one of your starters gets hurt.

 

Injuries will happen, it would be intelligent of us to be careful with JD and Thome to try to minimize them, but they will happen. I think that if/when Thome hits the DL this year, the logical move is Owens moves to starting CF, Swisher moves to either RF/1b, and Konerko/Dye alternate DHing, and you try to get around it as well as you can. You can look at just about any team in baseball and say "Oh, what happens if player X gets hurt, they're screwed". If Thome goes down for the full season for some reason, we're not winning the Central, and we'll probably finish last. If Cabrera goes down for Detroit, they might compete with us for that spot. If Johan went down for the Twins, ditto.

 

You play the guys you have and do the best you can at some level, because you can't just keep talented guys sitting in the dugout in case someone gets hurt.

 

 

Agreed. You CAN'T keep talented guys on the bench incase someone gets hurt. However, that is not the case. We are talking about Jerry Owens here. We can spell the older/injured risked players (Thome and Dye) in favor of giving Owens some experience, and having a better defensive CF in there.

[EvilJester99]

his g/f is sooooooo fine!

http://homerderby.com/wp-content/uploads/2...iellegamba1.jpg

Another homerun for Swisher right there....

[Chisoxfn]

Not to pick on you here, but it seemed that the Soxtalk concensus a few months ago was that Broadway was never going to be anything special. Is the next Soxtalk trend going to be building Broadway as the next savior of the White Sox.

Don't pencil me in that group, I really like Broadway and have said as much publicly. I think he is going to surprise a lot of people but I sure as hell haven't seen many people aside from myself and a couple others say much anything positive about Lance.

[WCSox]

remember KW called Gio one of the 2 best lefthanded prospects in baseball and had him penciled as a front of the rotation starter

 

Kenny also had a vested interest in inflating Gio's value as high as he possibly could. Regardless of how true or false his statement was, I don't believe a damn thing that Kenny says publicly.

 

[Vance Law]

"Feel Lucky" on Google with her name and you won't be disappointed.

 

fake cans = bs

[Dick Allen]

Kenny also had a vested interest in inflating Gio's value as high as he possibly could. Regardless of how true or false his statement was, I don't believe a damn thing that Kenny says publicly.

Believe me, no GM is going to inflate the value of White Sox prospects based on what comes out of KW's mouth. Just like KW really doesn't care what other GMs have to say about their prospects. Gio probably wonders what he's going to have to do to make it through a winter without getting traded.

[beck72]

Swisher must live in Ohio in the offseason. Interesting new workout routine.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/24/sports/b...amp;oref=slogin

[Vance Law]

Agreed. You CAN'T keep talented guys on the bench incase someone gets hurt. However, that is not the case. We are talking about Jerry Owens here. We can spell the older/injured risked players (Thome and Dye) in favor of giving Owens some experience, and having a better defensive CF in there.

Exactly. Anytime you have Thome, Dye, or Konerko taking days off, Owens plays center, Swisher moves to right or 1B.

 

If you expect:

Thome 130 games

Dye 140

Konerko 150

 

Owens could potentially start in center 60 times.

 

[Leonard Zelig]

Does anybody think Ozzie would consider moving Dye to left field and playing Quentin in right?

[Balta1701]

Does anybody think Ozzie would consider moving Dye to left field and playing Quentin in right?

Can you give me a good reason why that would actually improve us?

[Leonard Zelig]

Can you give me a good reason why that would actually improve us?

 

Well, I have never actually seen Quentin play, but from what I've read:

 

Defense: The arm is average to above average for a right fielder. There doesn’t seem to be any lag in his arm after coming off Tommy John surgery, in fact many scouts have said his arm looks even stronger than it was before the surgery. He's not a burner, but he's got solid speed, certainly enough for a corner outfield spot, and he takes excellent routes, making many plays look easier than they already are.

 

It seems to me that you would rather have your better defender in RF than LF.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

Don't pencil me in that group, I really like Broadway and have said as much publicly. I think he is going to surprise a lot of people but I sure as hell haven't seen many people aside from myself and a couple others say much anything positive about Lance.

I also think Lance has some potential and is certainly now among the best or the best pitching prospect. He still can improve, but I did like his Sept start against the Royals (it was one of the few games that I watched after July), But I had the sense that a lot of people were down on him, though he may have just been in the shadow of DLS, Gio, and co.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Greg The Bull Luzinski

[DBAHO]

I'd do that, but I don't think Jermaine would be too pleased with it (although it would decrease his value a little, it would improve the overall OF defense).

 

Of course it depends on whether Quentin is actually going to be 100% healthy at the start of the season and wins a corner OF spot (because anything can happen from here on in, which we've certainly seen today).

[RockRaines]

How many people are going to keep b****ing about the farm system until you realize the absolutely solid core of young studs KW has collected. With a successful farm system, for a contender they usually have what, 3-5 players that are homegrown maximum, that are cheap, young, and hitting their peaks. We have our future middle of the order and possibly 2 arms in the rotation for basically the next SEVERAL years. The top levels of the farm system are so insignificant right now with that young core its ridiculous. KW turned Gio into thome and Swisher, thats ridiculous.

 

Swisher was poised to be Oakland's Konerko, at a younger age, with more athleticism, at a time where salaries are out of control. KW got him for basically an OF prospect that isnt a top ten for any team but us, an A ball pitcher with potential, and a player that could be good, but also has been traded 3 times for impact players already, and was traded with Floyd for freaking 3-game Freddy garcia.

[RockRaines]

Swisher must live in Ohio in the offseason. Interesting new workout routine.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/24/sports/b...amp;oref=slogin

He's a buckeye

[Chisoxfn]

I also think Lance has some potential and is certainly now among the best or the best pitching prospect. He still can improve, but I did like his Sept start against the Royals (it was one of the few games that I watched after July), But I had the sense that a lot of people were down on him, though he may have just been in the shadow of DLS, Gio, and co.

We can only hope that as Buerhle came through in the shadows of Kip Wells, Jon Garland (who panned out), Aaron Myette, Matt Ginter, and Lorenzo Barcelo....that Lance Broadway can do the same (outplaying Gio/DSL/etc).