Who likes the Swisher trade?

[Balta1701]

That's not really that crazy. At worst that's unfounded optimism (or pessimism if you're saying Danks will crash)

I think it's entirely possible that both Floyd and Danks will be roughly "Average" next year, and if that happens, we'll consider Floyd more valuable simply because he's almost guaranteed to give us more innings and remain fresher longer.

[lostfan]

I think it's entirely possible that both Floyd and Danks will be roughly "Average" next year, and if that happens, we'll consider Floyd more valuable simply because he's almost guaranteed to give us more innings and remain fresher longer.

If both of them are average I think the team really wouldn't be in very bad shape. Danks pitched reasonably well before taking a dive from a tired arm or whatever in the stretch run, and Floyd wasn't THAT bad, with some work he'd make a decent #5 as long as he doesn't blow up and have an ERA of 6.50. It'd just take a lot of luck for both pitchers to reach their highest potential.

[DBAHO]

Considering Floyd is out of options, I still think there's a chance Danks could start 2008 in AAA.

 

Of course a lot of that will depend on whether the Sox acquire Ervin Santana in a Paul Konerko deal.

[Balta1701]

Considering Floyd is out of options, I still think there's a chance Danks could start 2008 in AAA.

 

Of course a lot of that will depend on whether the Sox acquire Ervin Santana in a Paul Konerko deal.

I still don't think there's a chance the Angels are going to make a deal with the White Sox. And I think KW genuinely does have some confidence in his young pitchers, and I think he realizes he needs the young pitchers he has right now to succeed for his rebuilding plan to work.

[YASNY]

I still don't think there's a chance the Angels are going to make a deal with the White Sox. And I think KW genuinely does have some confidence in his young pitchers, and I think he realizes he needs the young pitchers he has right now to succeed for his rebuilding plan to work.

 

I agree with you. The Angels have not been known for making blockbusters deals, which this deal would be. And yes, I believe KW has faith in Danks and Floyd.

[RockRaines]

I WISH WE HAD THOSE PROSPECTS!!!!! I NEED PROSPECTS!!!!!! WHO CARES THAT WE GOT A YOUNG SLUGGER FOR THE NEXT 4 YEARS, I WANT MY DAMN PROSPECTS!!!!!!

[Dick Allen]

I WISH WE HAD THOSE PROSPECTS!!!!! I NEED PROSPECTS!!!!!! WHO CARES THAT WE GOT A YOUNG SLUGGER FOR THE NEXT 4 YEARS, I WANT MY DAMN PROSPECTS!!!!!!

So you would have been all for trading Josh Fields in 2006 for Linebrink considering the bullpen was terrible and Fields was just a prospect.

[RockRaines]

So you would have been all for trading Josh Fields in 2006 for Linebrink considering the bullpen was terrible and Fields was just a prospect.

I didnt know Linebrink was a 27 year old middle of the order hitter that is just entering his prime and is signed until 2012? But if you would like to keep comparing this situation to something else totally irrelevant, thats cool.

 

I wouldnt mind seeing the reactions from when Reed was traded.

Edited January 7, 2008 by RockRaines

[Dick Allen]

I didnt know Linebrink was a 27 year old middle of the order hitter that is just entering his prime and is signed until 2012? But if you would like to keep comparing this situation to something else totally irrelevant, thats cool.

 

I wouldnt mind seeing the reactions from when Reed was traded.

I know you wouldn't have seen a complaint from me. They were 2 very different situations. A team with a legit chance picking up pitching vs. a team that with the current roster is a longshot, giving up pitching. Young, cheap pitching. You can talk about the White Sox OBP all you want. The difference from the 2005 OBP and 2007 OBP for the team was .004. The 2006 team has an OBP .020 higher than the championship team. Pitching is what wins.

[greg775]

I think Kenny is OK but that long post proclaiming him this amazing GM is simply not true.

He has whiffed badly at times.

He got us a World Championship and I thank him.

But he does not have this amazing master plan that will keep the Sox good forever.

Can you say Chris Young?

And yes I'm one of the 77 percent in favor of the trade.

[Metz]

Can you say Chris Young?

 

Chris Young.

 

.237 Batting Average

 

yeah I know hes a good player, you have to take your hits with your misses. When he was traded to the dbacks I am sure a lot of people were like oh thats gonna bite us in the ass and now you can prove with his run production this past season, but when we traded jeremy reed to Seattle I am sure a lot of people said oh thats gonna bite us in the ass and now we can say well he did not pan out there.

[BearSox]

I should point out that I was a fan of the Javy trade and I had no problem getting rid of the overrated, IMO, Chris Young.

[southsideirish71]

I think Kenny is OK but that long post proclaiming him this amazing GM is simply not true.

He has whiffed badly at times.

He got us a World Championship and I thank him.

But he does not have this amazing master plan that will keep the Sox good forever.

Can you say Chris Young?

And yes I'm one of the 77 percent in favor of the trade.

 

Greg you confuse me. You are talking about Chris Young. You the same guy who gave everyone the win for today mantra from last year when we were in last place with 2 weeks to go. 3 more wins, and we go from the 3rd position in the draft to the 8th position for next year. Remember the draft picks mean nothing speeches and win for today. We traded Chris Young for Javy in the win it now spirit that you hold so dear. So there really is no reason for you to ever bring up Chris Young or anything else we trade away for win today. In fact, for you there is no point on looking at the minor leagues, because win now baby, next year is next years problem.

[SoxAce]

I should point out that I was a fan of the Javy trade and I had no problem getting rid of the overrated, IMO, Chris Young.

 

Honestly man, since you've posted here, this is the only thing that I've agreed on consistantly from you. I don't agree that Young is overrated (maybe on this board, but only from a select few) but since he was here, some posters here can tell you I was never a fan of his.

[BearSox]

well, I think Young will be a decent player, but a lot of people here are proclaiming him to be the next Carlos Beltran or something, and thats bs.

[almagest]

well, I think Young will be a decent player, but a lot of people here are proclaiming him to be the next Carlos Beltran or something, and thats bs.

 

I agree about Chris Young completely. Even with his power, and even trying to maximize the number of his ABs given said power, I have no idea why Arizona batted him leadoff with his robust .297 OBP. He's like Alfonso Soriano, but without the high average. I'd think he'd be better off hitting lower in the order, where his power would be more valuable, and low OBP less of a hindrance.

 

Beltran was a bit overrated too (IMHO) because of his performance a couple years ago in the playoffs, though he actually has become a pretty good value, given his .878 2007 OPS, an ~.850 career OPS, and salary of 13.5 million. Torii Hunter put up an .839 OPS in 2007, with a career OPS of .793, and he's getting what? 18 million a year? Even Rowand is getting $12 mil/year now, and he's no where near worth as much as Beltran.

 

I wouldnt mind seeing the reactions from when Reed was traded.

 

I remember that. I was lurking here at the time -- quite a few doomsday prophecies, I believe. I can't say I didn't feel the same way, though. That was one of the deals that helped me realize how worthless hanging on to prospects can be.

[SoxAce]

I will always hate the Reed deal. I don't give a damn about anyone else or the players involved. Reed is a stud and will always be a stud.

[witesoxfan]

well, I think Young will be a decent player, but a lot of people here are proclaiming him to be the next Carlos Beltran or something, and thats bs.

 

If by Carlos Beltran, you mean Mike Cameron, then yes.

 

I've never seen a Young-Beltran comparison in my life.

[qwerty]

Freddie Garcia will probably not be ready to pitch until midseason at the earliest from what most of the reports I've read have said. And from what we've seen of Freddo in the past, how confident are people that he'll be willing to put in the work and conditioning to get himself into shape for that deadline?

 

Josh Fogg might be a reasonable gamble. Threw 165 innings last year. No idea what he's asking for $wise. Had an ERA near 5 last year but that was carried by Coors. ERA of 4.15 away from Coors. I still favor giving the ball to the guys we have and realizing that we still have a line of 7 or 8 potential starters this year, but that's not the worst idea I've ever heard, depending on the $$.

 

Blame josh fogg and josh fogg only for sucking... we sign josh fogg and we can only be regressing.

 

I'm going to ignore that comment.

I like Fogg. There's just something about him that I liked when he was with us back in the day. If he can take a number 3 role that puts Contreras lower in the rotation, I would be willing to take a flier on him, and I am agreeing with you about the $$ aspect.

 

Josh fogg as our number three? He should not even be considered for the rotation... would be a waste of someone getting some major league experience. Fogg putting up a sub 6 era in this park/league would be a feat from how i see it.

[Jeremy]

No offense to anyone but I think you'll almost always find most Sox fans in favor of a prospects for major leaguers deal.

 

First of all, despite Sox fans' reputation as pessimists, most fans I've encountered defend the overwhelming majority of Kenny's moves. Look no further than the Chris Young trade: the consensus in baseball is that Young is a highly promising young player and we got hosed in the deal but many White Sox fans still adamantly defend the deal. People moan about Young's OBP even though he improved markedly in the second half of his rookie year and posted a .358 OBP in the minors.

 

More importantly though, Sox fans seem very willing to throw their support behind any deal where "unproven" prospects are deals for established players. People in this thread seem to be explicitly saying they believe a prospects for major leaguers deal is always a good deal, which I find completely mind boggling. Every All-Star and Superstar player was a prospect once and most of them where highly touted prospects like DLS and Gio.

[lostfan]

No offense to anyone but I think you'll almost always find most Sox fans in favor of a prospects for major leaguers deal.

 

First of all, despite Sox fans' reputation as pessimists, most fans I've encountered defend the overwhelming majority of Kenny's moves. Look no further than the Chris Young trade: the consensus in baseball is that Young is a highly promising young player and we got hosed in the deal but many White Sox fans still adamantly defend the deal. People moan about Young's OBP even though he improved markedly in the second half of his rookie year and posted a .358 OBP in the minors.

 

More importantly though, Sox fans seem very willing to throw their support behind any deal where "unproven" prospects are deals for established players. People in this thread seem to be explicitly saying they believe a prospects for major leaguers deal is always a good deal, which I find completely mind boggling. Every All-Star and Superstar player was a prospect once and most of them where highly touted prospects like DLS and Gio.

You know what really kills me about the Chris Young deal... they act like we got completely screwed on that deal and that Kenny should've KNOWN he was going to be a better CF than Anderson, shame on him for having a broken flux capacitor on his Delorean and not being able to know in advance. If you're ready to defend a WS title and you have to bank on one of your two really good, 5-tool prospects filling a hole, are you going to go with the one that's still a raw AA project that is still working on hitting for average (power numbers notwithstanding), or the (apparently) refined player who tore up AAA and hit close to .300 in the minors? If I have to flip a coin I'm going with the second. Does anybody think Chris Young would've been the same impact player he is for AZ that he is on the Sox if he was put into the starting role in CF in 2006? I somehow don't think so. I tend to think we would've been just as impatient with him as we were with Anderson.

 

Yeah that choice obviously blew up in Kenny's face but I don't really fault him for making it at the time. Although... last time I checked, that hole in the roster brought Jim Thome, who doesn't exactly suck (not happy about Frank leaving, but whatever, what can you do). And the player we gave up bought us a legit #2 starter.

Edited January 7, 2008 by lostfan

[witesoxfan]

Look no further than the Chris Young trade: the consensus in baseball is that Young is a highly promising young player and we got hosed in the deal but many White Sox fans still adamantly defend the deal.

 

The fact that Javy put up an ERA under 4 really tends to help that cause.

 

People moan about Young's OBP even though he improved markedly in the second half of his rookie year and posted a .358 OBP in the minors.

 

And Javy put up an ERA under 4 in the AL Central. What's your point?

 

There are two sides to this story; the only reason the Vazquez deal looks bad right now is because the Sox are bad; if the Sox are good, and Javy's a big part of that, nobody even looks back on this deal. It's a huge winner of a trade. That's what hurts most about the deal; it's not that the Sox lost Young, it's that they got a semi-expensive starting pitcher when the team is seemingly not going to be good by the end of the decade.

 

More importantly though, Sox fans seem very willing to throw their support behind any deal where "unproven" prospects are deals for established players.

 

That's absolute bulls***. How many people went crazy about how much the Sox gave up for half a year of Freddy Garcia? Beyond that, people were pissed off about the Vazquez trade, and that involved ONE prospect, not THREE in comparison to the Swisher deal.

 

Most Sox fans understand value; they differ on whether it was the right time for such a move, but they generally can tell whether the Sox gave up too much or too little.

 

People in this thread seem to be explicitly saying they believe a prospects for major leaguers deal is always a good deal, which I find completely mind boggling.

 

It's not always a good deal; you know that that's a garbage statement. What they are saying is that the Sox pitching prospects generally don't pan out well; can you blame them? Jon Rauch and Gary Majewski are among the few traded prospects to pan out for another team. That's why Sox fans really don't care about trading pitching prospects.

 

Every All-Star and Superstar player was a prospect once and most of them where highly touted prospects like DLS and Gio.

 

And for every all-star and superstar prospect, you have more who flame out...what's your point?

 

You are merely looking at one side and seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the White Sox do not produce prospects at a very good rate and that when they do produce quite a few prospects, they generally flame out and become nobodies. They've had their share of good players come up through the system, without a doubt, but it's not as if they have been a prospect factory over the past 5-10 years.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Exactly. Most people on here can't see what's being attempted. They are attempting to stay afloat in Chicago while they tear down and rebuild the minor league system. This may not win "championships" but it could keep them in the race until the minors can be built back up. I think starting this year we will have a much different approach at the draft.

 

I think its pretty arrogant to say you make up part of the 5% of the intelligent fans who sees whats being attempted. Yes 77% are in favor of this single trade but give that 77% a bit more credit for knowing why we are in favor of it. We know the GM has a plan and we know what that plan appears to be. Wether it produces a playoff team is quite another story. KW's public stance is we will be able to contend.

 

In order to truly contend with the likes of Detroit and Cleveland guys like Fields, Quentin, Richar , Danks and Floyd will have to show things they've never shown at the major league level. Without the young pitching stepping up and that includes both starters and the pen we won't contend no matter what manure KW is shoveling publicly. Last year KW did the same thing for the bullpen. Put his faith in a lot of cheap young supposedly flamethrowing arms and we saw how well that worked out. Not knocking KW as much as I'm saying every year is a crapshoot but its less of a crapshoot when you rely on major league talent not major league ready talent.

[shipps]

I dont fault KW for trading the prospects to get what he wanted but I voted no just because I hate to see a Jeremy Burnitz kind of player on our team.I can see Swisher driving me crazy when he is at the plate for the next few years.

Edited January 7, 2008 by shipps

[Kyyle23]

I dont fault KW for trading the prospects to get what he wanted but I voted no just because I hate to see a Jeremy Burnitz kind of player on our team.I can see Swisher driving me crazy when he is at the plate for the next few years.

 

Man, thats a rough comparison for Swisher. I hope to heck he doesnt turn out to be a Burnitz type player