The slippery slope of gun laws

[YASNY]

So do you think that America's or England's gun laws are being put in place to move to a totalitarian state?

 

In a word. [/size]YES!

 

Edit to add: That didn't work, but you get my point.

Edited January 8, 2008 by YASNY

[NorthSideSox72]

So do you think that America's or England's gun laws are being put in place to move to a totalitarian state?

No, I think that is highly unlikely. But its not impossible, in my view. I just don't trust my government (or any other) enough to make that sacrifice. Its not that I think its likely we'll end up like Nazi Germany or something - but I think its very possible we are headed generally towards a society that is too controlled by its government.

 

[YASNY]

No, I think that is highly unlikely. But its not impossible, in my view. I just don't trust my government (or any other) enough to make that sacrifice. Its not that I think its likely we'll end up like Nazi Germany or something - but I think its very possible we are headed generally towards a society that is too controlled by its government.

 

Which is just another step on that slippery slope.

[StrangeSox]

Sometimes, the cops need access to the same hardware that the military does. Events occur, in this country, that are on scale with military-like situations. You may not like that, but is the solution to then allow then to run rampant?

 

The funny thing is, many US police departments are adding tactical units for the express purpose of becoming more like departments in Europe or Australia/NZ - where you have specialized tactical units, and the mainline force is less well-armed and more community service-focused. This ultimately helps build a bridge between police forces and the communities they serve.

 

This trend started out with that shootout with those bank robbers in LA. Since then, more and more towns are getting their own SWAT teams. These units are very expensive, and will be needed rarely, if ever. So, instead of letting the equipment sit around, they're using it in situations that they shouldn't. There's stories like the ones I posted from all over the country -- SWAT teams being used to serve warrants, situation escalates, someone dies. Or they burn down their house and kill their puppy. Or they assault the wrong home, and someone ends up getting shot.

Edited January 8, 2008 by StrangeSox

[GoSox05]

This trend started out with that shootout with those bank robbers in LA. Since then, more and more towns are getting their own SWAT teams. These units are very expensive, and will be needed rarely, if ever. So, instead of letting the equipment sit around, they're using it in situations that they shouldn't. There's stories like the ones I posted from all over the country -- SWAT teams being used to serve warrants, situation escalates, someone dies. Or they burn down their house and kill their puppy. Or they assault the wrong home, and someone ends up getting shot.

 

 

I think things like this or groups like Blackwater pose a much greater threat to are freedom than gun laws.

[YASNY]

I think things like this or groups like Blackwater pose a much greater threat to are freedom than gun laws.

 

Now that I agree with. Ruby Ridge and Waco come to mind.

Edited January 8, 2008 by YASNY

[EvilMonkey]

So do you think that America's or England's gun laws are being put in place to move to a totalitarian state?

Well, the UK has more cameras than Kodak, wants to throw you in jail for hving a knife and has no concept of free speech anymore, so I suppose you could say that it is there in part already. And look at this little bit going on in CA!

http://www.energy.ca.gov/2007publications/...7-017-45DAY.PDF

On page 194, there is this little blurb

"Thermostats – Heating systems shall be equipped with thermostats that meet the Programmable

Communicating Thermostat (PCT) requirements of Section 112©"

Each PCT will be fitted with a "non-removable " FM receiver that will allow the power authorities to increase your air conditioning temperature setpoint or decrease your heater temperature setpoint to any value they chose. During "price events" those changes are limited to +/- four degrees F and you would be able to manually override the changes. During "emergency events" the new setpoints can be whatever the power authority desires and you would not be able to alter them.

 

In other words, the temperature of your home will no longer be yours to control. Your desires and needs can and will be overridden by the state of California through its public and private utility organizations. All this is for the common good, of course. What's next, big view screens in your walls so that the state can check up on you and make sure you are working out?

 

First they came for the air conditioning. I lived in a cold state, so I did nothing. Then they came for my guns......

[Balta1701]

In other words, the temperature of your home will no longer be yours to control. Your desires and needs can and will be overridden by the state of California through its public and private utility organizations. All this is for the common good, of course. What's next, big view screens in your walls so that the state can check up on you and make sure you are working out?

Ok, so since it's CA, I can safely say this. Which would you rather have...the government turning down your thermostat or the government turning off your lights? Because one of those 2 has happened in the last 10 years.

[NorthSideSox72]

This trend started out with that shootout with those bank robbers in LA. Since then, more and more towns are getting their own SWAT teams. These units are very expensive, and will be needed rarely, if ever. So, instead of letting the equipment sit around, they're using it in situations that they shouldn't. There's stories like the ones I posted from all over the country -- SWAT teams being used to serve warrants, situation escalates, someone dies. Or they burn down their house and kill their puppy. Or they assault the wrong home, and someone ends up getting shot.

Actually, the trend was starting long before the North Hollywood shootout. Many communities had some incident they pointed to for the need. I remember, for example, in the late 80's, there was the whole Laurie Dann thing in Winnetka. I recall being locked into my high school while they looked for her. Anyway, not long after, Winnetka got their first automatic weapons.

 

As for sitting around, most suburban and rural communities share resources for that exact reason. One town may have SWAT, but 10 other towns in the county may buy that SWAT team's services.

 

And I tend to disagree with the idea that using SWAT for, say, warrant service, increases risk of problems. Quite the opposite, in my experience - a more professional, better trained and better equiped group will be more likely to execute a warrant with less risk of bad situations (shootings, hostages) than a bunch of regular uniforms.

 

One more thing. Stories of these guys hitting the wrong house or what not are much like stories of DUI's... they are the result of people being stupid. But that doesn't mean you ban cars, or not have tactical police units. It means you train drivers and cops better, and throw the book at people who act stupidly when participating in a privileged activity (driving being a privilege, being on a special police unit the same).

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Now that I agree with. Ruby Ridge and Waco come to mind.

Blackwater, a private agency of thugs, scares me. Publically funded and highly legally-restricted police forces do not.

 

[YASNY]

Ok, so since it's CA, I can safely say this. Which would you rather have...the government turning down your thermostat or the government turning off your lights? Because one of those 2 has happened in the last 10 years.

 

Wasn't that an Enron thing? The rolling black outs?

[StrangeSox]

And I tend to disagree with the idea that using SWAT for, say, warrant service, increases risk of problems. Quite the opposite, in my experience - a more professional, better trained and better equiped group will be more likely to execute a warrant with less risk of bad situations (shootings, hostages) than a bunch of regular uniforms.

 

If they're used for the right situations, sure. If they're being used to serve warrants on non-violent criminals in a house full of other people? I think it will just escalate the situation, panic, and confusion.

 

One more thing. Stories of these guys hitting the wrong house or what not are much like stories of DUI's... they are the result of people being stupid. But that doesn't mean you ban cars, or not have tactical police units. It means you train drivers and cops better, and throw the book at people who act stupidly when participating in a privileged activity (driving being a privilege, being on a special police unit the same).

 

Well, there's the problem. These squads aren't being held accountable. The cheifs say "we got bad information, how were we supposed to know it was the wrong address?" Or they make excuses for the guy who's trigger-finger slipped and killed someone.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, there's the problem. These squads aren't being held accountable. The cheifs say "we got bad information, how were we supposed to know it was the wrong address?" Or they make excuses for the guy who's trigger-finger slipped and killed someone.

Sure, there are always examples like LAPD's Rampart Division, or CPD's SOS Unit... they clearly need better supervision. I would never argue otherwise.

 

[Balta1701]

Wasn't that an Enron thing? The rolling black outs?

The official energy crisis was driven by them keeping power plants deliberately off line and forcing the state to buy whatever capacity it could from whoever was selling at whatever price (Enron). But CA, especially in the LA Area, has a real nasty habit of pushing itself right up to the limit of the power grid every summer when the big heat wave hits, and it's become fairly common that there are rolling blackouts on a smaller scale because the system can't handle the load. If all you did was save 1% of the area's electricity by altering everyone's thermostat who has one by 1 degree, it'd make a huge difference.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Balta1701

[EvilMonkey]

The official energy crisis was driven by them keeping power plants deliberately off line and forcing the state to buy whatever capacity it could from whoever was selling at whatever price (Enron). But CA, especially in the LA Area, has a real nasty habit of pushing itself right up to the limit of the power grid every summer when the big heat wave hits, and it's become fairly common that there are rolling blackouts on a smaller scale because the system can't handle the load. If all you did was save 1% of the area's electricity by altering everyone's thermostat who has one by 1 degree, it'd make a huge difference.

HOw about when they modify the v-chip so that government can control what you watch and when you watch it? If too many people are watching Desperate Housewives, they can just turn some of the sets over to CBS, afterall they need viewers too. Or better yet, they monitor how much time you watch and turn it off after 2 hours in any 24 hour period? It is a slippery slope!

 

FYI, not discounting the severity of California's power problem, I think this step is just one more foot in the door.

[YASNY]

The official energy crisis was driven by them keeping power plants deliberately off line and forcing the state to buy whatever capacity it could from whoever was selling at whatever price (Enron). But CA, especially in the LA Area, has a real nasty habit of pushing itself right up to the limit of the power grid every summer when the big heat wave hits, and it's become fairly common that there are rolling blackouts on a smaller scale because the system can't handle the load. If all you did was save 1% of the area's electricity by altering everyone's thermostat who has one by 1 degree, it'd make a huge difference.

 

Sorry man. I'm just not into the gov't telling me what I have to my thermostat set at in my own house. When I built this house I put in 2x6 walls instead od 2x4 for the extra insulation. The point is, that was MY choice not the damn gov't interfering in my comfort level. This is a perfect example of left wing thinking and I use the term thinking loosely here. And, yes I was right. It was an Enron thing.

[GoSox05]

Sorry man. I'm just not into the gov't telling me what I have to my thermostat set at in my own house. When I built this house I put in 2x6 walls instead od 2x4 for the extra insulation. The point is, that was MY choice not the damn gov't interfering in my comfort level. This is a perfect example of left wing thinking and I use the term thinking loosely here. And, yes I was right. It was an Enron thing.

 

 

It's a secret communist plan to control America. By controling our thermostats, they now control our minds!!

Edited January 8, 2008 by GoSox05

[YASNY]

It's a secret communist plan to control America. By controling our thermostats, they now control our minds!!

 

You know ... it's not that at all. It's just I hate them getting into my personal life. You use your sarcarstic demeaning cracks all you want. I could care less. I have my outlook on things and no liberal BS is gonna change any of it.

[Texsox]

You know ... it's not that at all. It's just I hate them getting into my personal life. You use your sarcarstic demeaning cracks all you want. I could care less. I have my outlook on things and no liberal BS is gonna change any of it.

 

Would conservative b.s. change your outlook? By specifying liberal b.s., it appears you are leaving the door open for conservative b.s.

[YASNY]

Would conservative b.s. change your outlook? By specifying liberal b.s., it appears you are leaving the door open for conservative b.s.

 

Conservative BS? Oh hell, haha, nice joke. We both know there is no such thing.

[Texsox]

Conservative BS? Oh hell, haha, nice joke. We both know there is no such thing.

[YASNY]

 

I mean really Texsox, that was a "Bush" league remark. No conservatives ever BS.

[GoSox05]

You know ... it's not that at all. It's just I hate them getting into my personal life. You use your sarcarstic demeaning cracks all you want. I could care less. I have my outlook on things and no liberal BS is gonna change any of it.

 

 

Hey I don't want the goverment in my personal life either.

[YASNY]

Hey I don't want the goverment in my personal life either.

 

Balta wants them in your personal life.

[Texsox]

I don't want them telling me what food are safe, and inspecting the food, and all that crap. I don't want them to force me to use their police and fire protection. I don't want them making certain my water is safe. I don't want them making certain the products I use are safe. I don't want them building schools all over the damn place. Y'all are right, get them out of our lives.